First taste of the sky

[toto]

Just had a look at the link grahan ( thanks ) ..... looks like I better get a bigger shed. 

 

The foamies are very reasonably priced for parts. I'll still need to let my pocket recover from the initial outlay first. 

 

Oh .... yes ..... and get airborne. 

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[paul devereux]

17 hours ago, toto said:

Cheap ..... there is nothing cheap about this hobby.  

 

It does seem to be coming together .... eventually.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

Hi toto, I would caution you against letting your enthusiasm at learning to fly, tempt you into buying stuff you don't need and might not use. All you need at this stage is a reliable trainer, and a reliable radio set. You need some time in the air to learn 'muscle memory' and orientation. These only come through practise, and you just need one simple trainer for that. My personal recommendation is always for a 3 channel first plane. (Though I know you have an instructor and a buddy lead and have 4 channels).

The reason for 3 channels is that it is 'self-righting' and gives you more thinking time. I'll bet a lot of people posting here on RCME learnt with 3 channels, many on their own.

Learning to fly is a bit like balancing a bike- before you can do it, it seems impossible, and you have to think about turning the handlebars to stay upright all the time- then you have suddenly 'got it' and you wonder what was so hard. 

I know others disagree with this, and claim the only way to learn is with ailerons from the get-go, but even a high-wing 4 channel plane with some dihedral is less stable than a plane designed to fly on 3 channels.

I know a lot of experienced pilots enjoy a plane like the PZ Radian for relaxed  flying:

[paul devereux]

1 minute ago, paul devereux said:

Hi toto, I would caution you against letting your enthusiasm at learning to fly, tempt you into buying stuff you don't need and might not use. All you need at this stage is a reliable trainer, and a reliable radio set. You need some time in the air to learn 'muscle memory' and orientation. These only come through practise, and you just need one simple trainer for that. My personal recommendation is always for a 3 channel first plane. (Though I know you have an instructor and a buddy lead and have 4 channels).

The reason for 3 channels is that it is 'self-righting' and gives you more thinking time. I'll bet a lot of people posting here on RCME learnt with 3 channels, many on their own.

Learning to fly is a bit like balancing a bike- before you can do it, it seems impossible, and you have to think about turning the handlebars to stay upright all the time- then you have suddenly 'got it' and you wonder what was so hard. 

I know others disagree with this, and claim the only way to learn is with ailerons from the get-go, but even a high-wing 4 channel plane with some dihedral is less stable than a plane designed to fly on 3 channels.

I know a lot of experienced pilots enjoy a plane like the PZ Radian for relaxed  flying:

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

I learnt more in an hour, being instructed on an aileron equipped plane, than I did in many months of gently nudging a self-righting, stable 3 channel plane around.  The tutelage coincided with passing my driving test.....

 

We're all different.

 

FWIW, if you're happy only flying when an instructor is available, I think 4 channels is the way to go.  If you just want to be taught the basics, then pretty much go it alone, 3 channels is good.

 

YMMV of course.

[Cuban8]

34 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

Hi toto, I would caution you against letting your enthusiasm at learning to fly, tempt you into buying stuff you don't need and might not use. All you need at this stage is a reliable trainer, and a reliable radio set. You need some time in the air to learn 'muscle memory' and orientation. These only come through practise, and you just need one simple trainer for that. My personal recommendation is always for a 3 channel first plane. (Though I know you have an instructor and a buddy lead and have 4 channels).

The reason for 3 channels is that it is 'self-righting' and gives you more thinking time. I'll bet a lot of people posting here on RCME learnt with 3 channels, many on their own.

Learning to fly is a bit like balancing a bike- before you can do it, it seems impossible, and you have to think about turning the handlebars to stay upright all the time- then you have suddenly 'got it' and you wonder what was so hard. 

I know others disagree with this, and claim the only way to learn is with ailerons from the get-go, but even a high-wing 4 channel plane with some dihedral is less stable than a plane designed to fly on 3 channels.

I know a lot of experienced pilots enjoy a plane like the PZ Radian for relaxed  flying:

No one size fits all solution IMHO. As a young teenager half a century ago, my first RC models were two channel powered gliders (Cox) - what could be simpler? Well not much, but they still required a lot of care and would quickly get away from my  inexperienced fingers on the controls. Quite stable in roll, but would still get way from you in anything but very calm winds and could be a real handful if out of trim in pitch. A rollercoaster ride before one learned to syncronise one's elevator inputs with what the model was doing -  thinking and then inputting was simply too late, kept you 'behind the curve' until you got the knack.

I do disagree with the three channel to start with philosophy, I'm not sure that overly stable is what most beginners who have reasonable hand/eye co-ordination are seeking in a model above all else, when under instruction.

Rather, lack of instability is the key. Well trimmed for straight and level flight at part throttle opening and able to maintain height without chasing about all over the sky. No more than basic steerage way from the ailerons. Correctly set up, there shouldn't be that much difference to flying rudder/elevator other than to a very light vintage type.

Neutral stability so the model doesn't dig itself into turns and doesn't go ballooning around if the pilot allows the speed to build a little.

Just the way I developed my training regime for new flyers over many years.

More than one way to skin a cat, of course.

[toto]

I've probably broken every rule in the book so far as I have purchased a few models already, however I will be sticking with my trainer type until I have reached some sort of proficiency however long that may take. I'll be more than happy with that. 

 

I am sort of at the mercy of others though to a degree, especially with regards to actually getting time in the air. I have to go with that as well. My training regime has started to take shape with my instructor and I should be in the air soon.

 

So far in the short space of time with him there has been a fair bit of practical stuff going on as well including getting some basic but necessary checks done on the model to ensure that it is set up correctly before taking to the sky. There is also balancing each others availability as well. If nothing else, its teaching me patience. Hopefully it will pay off.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

There are no rules about the hobby so relax........ 🙂

[paul devereux]

14 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

I do disagree with the three channel to start with philosophy, I'm not sure that overly stable is what most beginners who have reasonable hand/eye co-ordination are seeking in a model above all else, when under instruction.

Rather, lack of instability is the key. Well trimmed for straight and level flight at part throttle opening and able to maintain height without chasing about all over the sky. No more than basic steerage way from the ailerons. Correctly set up, there shouldn't be that much difference to flying rudder/elevator other than to a very light vintage type.

Neutral stability so the model doesn't dig itself into turns and doesn't go ballooning around if the pilot allows the speed to build a little.

Just the way I developed my training regime for new flyers over many years.

More than one way to skin a cat, of course.

Yeah, I may be completely wrong. I think I am a bit concerned that @toto isn't getting much flying time- 2 nice weekends, and it sounds like the nearest he has got to the sticks in that time is one aborted flight. People who are allowed to fly solo whenever they want (because they have passed the club's competency rules) maybe don't realise how frustrating that is. I suppose I am also concerned that toto is so keen he is buying bits of kit perhaps unnecessarily. I'm kind hearted but maybe it is misplaced.

Also, I have to declare my interest is not in tearing around the sky, or flying a warbird. I have always been interested in the beginnings of flight- the pioneer aircraft. If I ever build a model (from a plan or kit), it will be an early Bleriot or Blackburn, or that NZ chap whose name I have forgotten. 

My ideal would to build a model of a plane that almost but didn't fly at the end of the 18th Century if only the pioneers had the knowledge- maybe an up-scaled Lilienthal glider with a steam engine.

 

[toto]

Things are maybe a bit slow but I'm making good use of the time. I've been clearing the workshop out a bit lately so when I do assemble these models, there is some planned storage space for them rather than just bunging them In the shed after use.

 

Also organising the shed layout in terms of workspace because as well as the flight element, I am equally interested in the build element. I have some balsa kits from dancing wings that I will  e able to crack on with during any dead time. 

Admittedly, things have moved a bit slower than anticipated but at least there seems to be a bit of thought and organisation going into it with my latest trainer / mentor. He seems very organised and methodical. 

 

There are other options if things dont pan out but I think given the nature of the whole thing, in particular, people giving up their time and commitment, I cant afford to be too demanding. 

 

I'll be up and flying in no time. 

 

Toto

[Jake Bullit]

Get a sim if you havn`t already.Then you can practice whenever you like.

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

If you do want a sim, I'd recommend Phoenix.  It's good, with lots of models and sights. And it's free! Download here: Phoenix Simulator Downloads – RC-Thoughts.com

 

RCGroups has an active user group as well as hundreds more user-made models, but loads of them are pretty pants with poor physics tbh.

 

When it comes to the DW kits, be aware that build instructions are a tad............ poor, so don't be afraid to ask for help . 

[toto]

Hi Grumpy  Gnome,

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Dancing Wings kits. I'll be sure to start a build thread for these when I get started. Expect loads of questions. 

 

I have Realfight simulator. I haven't had a huge amount of time for it as yet. Just tickled around the edges with it. I do have an upload for it with the inclusion of installing my actual club airfield. I may need talking though how to incorporate that into the real flight software as I am not the best at these things. My instructor gave me this. Ideal to be able to practice on the take off and landing approaches to your own flying site. Terrific.

 

I will also need to learn how to upload photos on to the forum as this helps enormously when trying to ask others questions if you can demonstrate what you are talking about. 

 

I'll get round to both this weekend.

 

Again, thanks to all for their comments etc.

 

Toto 

[John Lee]

On 16/04/2023 at 12:26, GrumpyGnome said:

The Force 46 seems to be already discontinued, further reducing choice 🙁

 

Who said?

 

Not according to the distributers JPerkins. They were promoting it on Facebook less than an hour ago.

 

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreJPerkins

 

https://www.jperkins.com/products/FORE-4601?fbclid=IwAR1xTeCx3FhTg0Sk5VnCfmusq-5CQ4HIYPh1NuIDHskfvHz2w3xKpvutROE

[GrumpyGnome]

Force Engines home page did when I posted that..... doesn't now, so that's good news!

[Cuban8]

On 21/04/2023 at 08:19, toto said:

Things are maybe a bit slow but I'm making good use of the time. I've been clearing the workshop out a bit lately so when I do assemble these models, there is some planned storage space for them rather than just bunging them In the shed after use.

 

Also organising the shed layout in terms of workspace because as well as the flight element, I am equally interested in the build element. I have some balsa kits from dancing wings that I will  e able to crack on with during any dead time. 

Admittedly, things have moved a bit slower than anticipated but at least there seems to be a bit of thought and organisation going into it with my latest trainer / mentor. He seems very organised and methodical. 

 

There are other options if things dont pan out but I think given the nature of the whole thing, in particular, people giving up their time and commitment, I cant afford to be too demanding. 

 

I'll be up and flying in no time. 

 

Toto

Very early days yet, fingers crossed with the better weather and longer days you'll be able to arrange more training time with your instructor. It's surprising how quickly you'll make progress once you get a few good flying sessions in without waiting too long between them.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Been instructing a new senior member this year, he had a couple of flights on my Majestic Major and then over a couple of weeks we got his old brushed motor MPX Twinstar ready on an original Spektrum DSM (not DSM2) Tx with my Dx6i as the buddy. I'd forgotten what a nice flier the Twinstar is, 4 months in (not flying every week due to weather) he's at the stage where I hardly have to intervene but his positioning isn't there yet. Talked him through his first landing on the last outing (last battery of the day 🙂 ).

[toto]

Good to hear someone making progress. It'll soon be my time. Might not be in the air much at the moment but still learning plenty with regards to models, transmitters and all sorts of other invaluable information.

 

All part of it.

 

Toto

 

[toto]

This could be my weekend ....  let's not forget the weather but apart from that it looks good for both saturday and Sunday. My instructor is good for Sunday.... and .... one of the other members who took me up first time around is good for Saturday and Sunday. ... surely I cant fail to get some time in. 

 

Fingers crossed the tide is about to turn ...... gimme them sticks.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

Edited April 26, 2023 by toto

[paul devereux]

On 20/04/2023 at 17:29, toto said:

I've probably broken every rule in the book so far as I have purchased a few models already, however I will be sticking with my trainer type until I have reached some sort of proficiency however long that may take. I'll be more than happy with that. 

 

I am sort of at the mercy of others though to a degree, especially with regards to actually getting time in the air. I have to go with that as well. My training regime has started to take shape with my instructor and I should be in the air soon.

 

So far in the short space of time with him there has been a fair bit of practical stuff going on as well including getting some basic but necessary checks done on the model to ensure that it is set up correctly before taking to the sky. There is also balancing each others availability as well. If nothing else, its teaching me patience. Hopefully it will pay off.

 

Toto

I notice @Basilposted this way back (in response to someone proposing a new way of learning to fly, religion was mixed up in it so it seemed a bit iffy):

Posted December 17, 2020

.........

I am anxous to learn more about what you are saying, as I have been a member of a club for nearly a year and have found teaching time hard to come by. It usually takes the form of 6 min sessions, not more than say 2 in any day. By the time you get to the patch again you have lost some of it. In a year it amounts to less than 1 hr. .....

Bas

The pertinent bit is the lack of air time. I gather you are in a similar boat- about 10 mins on the sticks after the expense of joining a club and spending a few hundred on several aircraft.

I am going to have a pop at model flying clubs here- they are not doing enough for beginners. There, I've said it. I expect I'll get some flack, but I stand by my words.

The weather is looking good for this weekend, I hope you get some quality flying time in the air this time, toto.

[toto]

Thanks Paul,

 

Time will tell. I think things will pick up pace but if not then there is another club I can look at. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that were just not expecting my application out of the blue and it's taken a hit time to sort things out. I think it's quite a small club, say 30 members of which there are only a few core members turn up regularly so they might be a bit tight for reliable instructors.

 

I have just lately bought a small park flyer that falls out with the usual rules for flying unsupervised etc. That will give me some stick time too to practice the basics. Half the knack is hand eye coordination and building up muscle memory on stick coordination etc. Every little helps.

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

Continuity and actual flying time in training is vital to make sure you haven't forgotten whst you learned last time you flew.

Yes, some Clubs might not have the instructors available to provide the right amount of instruction but pupils also have a part to play in making sure they sre ready to go when the instructor is available.

Psrt of the preparation should be reading the relevant section of the BMFA handbook "A Flying Start" (available to download from the Achievement Scheme website in the Download section - https://achievements.bmfa.uk/).

 

If your instructor isn't using this resource quietly ask them if they would do if you find it helpful.

[Simon Chaddock]

Yes eye/hand coordination is a basic but what really counts is when you don't have to think what to do. It becomes a reflex action.

Only then do you stand a chance of actually putting in an adjustment before the plane starts to do anything else. As stated this takes plenty of practice to achieve and a certain amount of 'keeping current' once you have it.

Trainer planes react more slowly so the need for an instant reflex action is less urgent but if you move up the aerobatic response and speed scale faster than you improve your reflexes there is trouble ahead.

Get really good at doing the basic things with the trainer properly rather than 'just good enough', like every landing a 'greaser' and exactly where you intended. 😉

 

To quote Dirty Harry "A man has got to know his limitations".

[Don Fry]

“Are you lucky.”

reply, “yes, but the more I practice the luckier I get.”

Arnold Palmer, winner.

[David Davis 2]

@paul devereux "I am going to have a pop at model flying clubs here- they are not doing enough for beginners. There, I've said it. I expect I'll get some flack, but I stand by my words..."

 

At least two of our club members, a beginnner and one who is returning to the hobby after a lapse of 34 years, have chosen to drive over 30 miles to our club rather than to fly at nearer clubs, because of our reputation for training beginners.

[toto]

Well ..... 

 

Made the air today. The weather was filthy. The most and fog eventually cleared .... admittedly not for long but long enough to get e decent flight. 

 

It was very co,d which didn't help but the trainer, a boomerang , coped with it once it was fired up and warmed up. I did have my doubts at one point. I'm guessing a good seven or eight minutes where I managed a few circuits including a reasonably presented figure of eight with just the odd bit of assistance.

 

Visibility was good enough but my instructor did give me the choice as to if I was happy enough to proceed. I personally wouldn't if I was not happy that my eye sight couldn't cope. I'm not that desperate to get in the air. The last thing I wanted was to come away from a potentially bad flight with a negative experience. 

 

My circuits are not either anywhere near perfect or co p,eted unassisted but even though it's been about two weeks since my last stick time, I managee better than I thought I would. I thought I would have been taking a step backwards but not really the case. The instructor was also pretty complimentary of my efforts.

 

A we nipped into the portacabin for a coffee as my fingers were frozen. By the time we came back out, the weather had deteriorated again to the point where we could not see the wind turbines that border our flying field. The decision was taken to abort any idea of a further flight. I was quite happy with that. You just cant account for the weather.

 

So, it's back up to the field tomorrow for more ..... weather pending of course. I think the forecast is more favourable so fingers crossed. I think the p,an is for some more circuits but also some taxing practice and to take the model up for the first time as well. ...... a long way to go but I feel just a tiny bit or confidence growing.

 

Cheers for now

 

Toto