First taste of the sky

[Cuban8]

Excellent point from Jon about thinking ahead. Beginners tend to react to what the model is doing rather than the other way around - always a step behind the curve, so to speak. All perfectly normal and part of the initial process and goes for learning many manual skills whether learning to drive or whatever. Eventually the balance will tip for most people and the pilot becomes the master with the model doing his bidding (well, for most of the time).

[Cuban8]

On 25/03/2023 at 21:36, kevin b said:

Just be careful.

Many full size pilots are also model fliers.

One chap who I used to go flying with in his Piper Cherokee was without doubt my most difficult model flying pupil when he fancied having a go at our hobby. Always too fast, too high, too far away and never would take advice. A nice chap and a competent and safe PPL though - anyone else had a similar issue with 'real' pilots?

Edited March 27, 2023 by Cuban8

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, Cuban8 said:

One chap who I used to go flying with in his Piper Cherokee was without doubt my most difficult model flying pupil when he fancied having a go at our hobby. Always too fast, too high, too far away and never would take advice. A nice chap and a competent and safe PPL though - anyone else had a similar issue with 'real' pilots?

 

I had a similar experience with a BA pilot. I dont think he appreciated being instructed on how to fly by a 17 year old when he was in his 60's and flew 747's. He had an attitude of 'these were only toys my boy (he actually called me 'my boy') and i fly i real thing dont you know?'. Thats a cool story, but unless you fly your 747 stood on the apron you got some learning to do. We also do not have autopilot so there's that. 

 

Anyway he was rubbish. Couldnt relate his full size experience to the model and wouldnt take advise, like he was just above it all. After a hand full of very unsuccessful flights with under 10 seconds before he needed rescue he stomped off in a bluster we never saw him again. I think he was just so embarrassed given all the chat about being a big shot he dare not show his face again. I wonder how he would do with modern CRM training..not well i would imagine. 

 

Anyway, in my experience full size pilots are awful model pilots as they cant relate the two and have the wrong mindset when they come in. Especially if they are a full size pilot first. going models then full size seems to be fine. The exception seems to be military pilots...with one exception who swears blind he never once used his rudder in all of his flying career with the RAF, and my efforts to explain to him why he should use it when flying his WWI fighter are lost into the ether. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I was lucky in my first club to join in France, next to Montpellier airport, 90% of them were 'real' pilots, and a couple of those were ex French Air  force for, so no security or flying problems, although one did annoy me, lining up his planes in 'his spot' and his little notebook logging every flight,,,

 

So don't knock all pilots, even if they are French.🤪

 

A change from flying and crashing on Newcastle town moor.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Paul De Tourtoulon
Ps

[David Davis 2]

We've recently had two pilots join our club here in the middle of France and they've learned to fly r/c very quickly, Mode 1 at that! One had a Private Pilot's Licence, the other had flown twin engine transport aircraft for years. He looked at my Mode 2 transmitter and said that it was "plus logique." I am the only Mode 2 pilot in my club who has an A Certificate.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Occupation has nowt to do with can you fly, attitude does.

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Occupation has nowt to do with can you fly, attitude does.

 

I think this point is key as the issues i have experienced with 'difficult' full size pilots learning models is they consider them toys and trivialise the skills of their instructors paying their advice no attention at all. This is a problem as, in many respects, models are more difficult to fly. 

[Don Fry]

I’ve taught three in my time.

1. ex RAF fast jet pilot. Knew how to fly, never listened, never adapted, eventually basically figured out how to do it, scraped an A, proceeded to break airframes, did not renew membership.

2. ex 747 cargo pilot, listened carefully, knew how an airframe works, competent flyer. Even told me why 747s hit the runway, it’s 6 floors down mate. Can’t see the ground. Never a great model flyer, but careful and competent. But I don’t know how good he could be, liked WW1 and interwar scale jobbies. 

3. ex Hercules pilot, then 737s. Listened very carefully, did the briefing, next job boss. Very quickly, much better than me. 
Takes all sorts

[paul devereux]

On the subject of unlikely fliers, I was at Epsom Downs once years ago (before I flew a plane myself) and idly watched the Epsom Club flying from the spectator 'line'. I noticed two middle aged fliers hand their TXs to a youngster, probably still at school, while their planes were in the air. I thought "They must be mad to let him 'have a go'!" 

Before I left I saw him flying the most precise aerobatics with a Gangster 52. He must have been either an instructor or one of their most experienced pilots!

 

[Peter Jenkins]

I would just observe that being a middle age or school age pilot has little to do with aerobatic competence.  It is all about the desire to learn, to improve your flying skills and to fly meaningful practice regularly.

 

You can choose to just rejoice in seeing your aircraft fly round endless race tracks or lazy eights with the occasional twinkle rool or tight loop performed at full power and be amazed at some pilots great competence.  You have the choice of either doing the same as you've always done and rejoice that your aircraft is in one piece at the end of the day or find out how to improve your flying skills.

 

When I last asked the question of the BMFA, only 18% of members held a B certificate and some of those were probably the same members holding Bs in two or more disciplines.

[Cuban8]

One thing I've learned in over half a century of being involved with this hobby is that most flyers that take part treat it as a straightforward hobby pastime much as any other, very often dividing their spare time with other activities/interests. They are not particularly interested in getting involved with the running of their club, the maintenance of the flying field, competitions, club nights, or aside from passing their 'A' to satisfy most clubs requirement for unsupervised flying, not much, if anything, to do with achievement schemes etc.

I remember one of my friends saying that in order to keep members off the flying site when we were arranging for some maintenance work to be carried out, just announce a competition on that day - a bit tongue in cheek, but you'll get his drift.

Members pay their subs, fly the models that they prefer from small foamies to lovely scale jobs and enjoy mixing with like minded mates once or twice a week and that's about it. Nothing wrong with that at all, I guess it's true of most other hobbies and societies.

Maybe 75% of BMFA members fit the above profile, with the remaining portion becoming increasingly involved as life and work etc allows, right up to those that are totally involved, more or less full time, at club and national level including top tier competitions.

Just the view I've developed from several clubs I've been  with over the years - some others may well be more or less dynamic in their outlook.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Cuban8

[leccyflyer]

6 hours ago, paul devereux said:

On the subject of unlikely fliers, I was at Epsom Downs once years ago (before I flew a plane myself) and idly watched the Epsom Club flying from the spectator 'line'. I noticed two middle aged fliers hand their TXs to a youngster, probably still at school, while their planes were in the air. I thought "They must be mad to let him 'have a go'!" 

Before I left I saw him flying the most precise aerobatics with a Gangster 52. He must have been either an instructor or one of their most experienced pilots!

 

When I came back to the hobby thirty years ago it was at the learn to fly with an instructor who will grab the tranny if you get into trouble school. That usually involved the instructor taking off, getting the model three mistakes high then handing the pupil the transmitter, usually for a very short time, grabbing it back, getting the model settled then giving the pupil another go - the instructor would then take the transmitter back and land the model. This followed a few months of building your own trainer from a kit, covering it, installing the gear etc etc. My first lessons I didn't learn very much at all. The instructor did most of the flying, then on the second or third flight he strained my brand spanking Uno Wot through a tree whilst he was landing.

 

I steered clear of that particular instructor -who always seemed to be having issues with breaking his own models - and chatting with other members and watching, there was a young lad about 12-13 years old who was flying an Aerostar 62 very precisely and him and his dad were very approachable. He's just started teaching another beginner and asked if I'd like to tag along -on condition that I got one of those new fangled buddy box thingies. He was the only one using that system and it was a revelation - the student flew most of the flight, he just took the model if things went out of shape and then gave it right back. He also very quickly introduced the notion of deliberately giving you control with the model in an awkward attitude having explained how to get out of trouble. In a very short period of time he hardly needed to intervene at all, introduced us to basic aerobatics and I found it a pain free experience. I remain eternally grateful to that young man and our families became firm friends over the years. Social media means that we keep in touch now, even after all this time. 

 

If I'd stuck with the first "traditional" means of learning I'm reasonably sure that I wouldn't be still doing this hobby now - I'd have got tired of having to repair the model every week, as some other learners had to do.

[Cuban8]

Many years ago we had a chap in our club (long since deceased, sadly) who put a lot of time into club doings and also gave a lot of time up to training new flyers - this before buddy boxes were common on radios. He was a lovely chap, very experienced with all sorts of models and building, a good teacher but did have one terrible flaw........he'd sometimes wander away from his pupil mid-flight, to help someone start their engine or whatever it might be. Another flyer would drift over to step in to assist the beginner until the instructor returned.

Can see the funny side of it now.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Cuban8

[Eric Robson]

One time at our field there was 3 of us, the club instructor a beginner and me. During the training session the instructor heeded the call of nature and asked me to stand by the pupil who was doing left hand circuits, he then panicked and handed me the tx problem he was mode 2 I was mode 1. Twice the model nearly hit the ground as I closed the throttle for up elevator but I managed to keep it up till the instructor took over. Good job it had plenty of fuel to avoid a dead stick landing.

Toto, to be welcomed in a club has a lot to do with your attitude , as you have been reading in the posts. Good luck with your training, once you go solo you are hooked to the addiction, I still get withdrawal symptoms when I can't go flying due to the weather, and that's after over 50 yrs of R/C flying.

 

 

[John Stainforth]

22 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

I think this point is key as the issues i have experienced with 'difficult' full size pilots learning models is they consider them toys and trivialise the skills of their instructors paying their advice no attention at all. This is a problem as, in many respects, models are more difficult to fly. 

In the US there is a higher proportion of model flyers who also fly full size planes, so this got discussed a lot. The consensus was that those who flew model planes before full-size were superb model aircraft pilots, whereas those who flew full-size first found model flying really difficult. It was not about them trivialising models, but it really was difficult for them because flying in the same direction as the aircraft is so ingrained that they find it very hard to unlearn that and reverse controls when the model and pilot are facing in different directions. (Unlearning ingrained bad habits is one of the top reasons for not learning bad habits in the first place, in anything.) 

 

One of the things that I find interesting is that practically all beginners to model flying fly their models in a very similar way: with vast overcontrolling, and find it much more difficult than they expected (because they are "good drivers", or something). What varies enormously is how quickly beginners come up their learning curve. Youngsters usually seem to learn model flying skills much faster than oldies. This may be partly because many of them are already trained in computer games that require fast reactions.

[Peter Jenkins]

3 hours ago, John Stainforth said:

One of the things that I find interesting is that practically all beginners to model flying fly their models in a very similar way: with vast overcontrolling, and find it much more difficult than they expected (because they are "good drivers", or something). What varies enormously is how quickly beginners come up their learning curve. Youngsters usually seem to learn model flying skills much faster than oldies. This may be partly because many of them are already trained in computer games that require fast reactions.

I just think that young people are faster learners than older people - it's in our DNA to learn fast when young as it's to do with survival. Our reaction times slow with age unless you do something to keep them sharp.  I think the other problem with flying aeroplanes, full size or model, is that they take time to react to the application of controls unlike a car which is virtually instant.  That slight time delay is one of the first problems to be overcome and is why beginners over control.  

 

Although I started model flying before I took up full size it was free flight and control line.  I went through full size gliding to power flying and then stopped when the kids arrived and money got tight!  Took up R/C flying when I was passed 50 and my biggest problem was continuity as work kept getting in the way.  It wasn't until I retired that I was able to get continuity - flying 3 times per week or more - that my flying started to improve.  When I entered aerobatic competitions (61 at the time) my flying improved markedly faster than before.  

[Don Fry]

On over controlling, my flying mate had a pupil. Who owned a Super 60, three channel, loft find I think.

My mate, for a reason forgotten, left the scene mid flight, I took over. The pupil was not landing ready, so flight time expired, I took back control. Hand the tranni over, back and forth setup.

I had never flown a Super 60. So I moved the right stick to turn it. Nothing. Perhaps the left stick still has the rudder, no I find. Bit of panic sets in, crash the pupils plane, ahhhhh. And I give the right stick a boot full yank of left, and it gracefully responds. 
Muscle memory set to different scales. BTW, don’t assume you don’t need telling what a plane flies like. 

[toto]

Well ..... just waiting to see what the weather is going to do this weekend. 

 

That will determine whether it's good enough to fit in some more air miles or take advantage of a visit to Ky instructors mancave / hanger. He has a load of info reading material with regards to the online tests etc. Cant remember the name of ot now. 

 

It will give me an opportunity to run the carbon cub kit past him as I dont think hes seen one in the flesh. I also need to pick his brain as to the size of fule tube and required fittings that will be me pessary to rig out a field box with power panel / built in fuel pump.

 

I didn't really need the field box etc right now as I'm using the instructors but if I put one together, I can supply my own fuel etc and get used to using the equipment that I will be running with. Wont do any harm and gets the initial expense out the way whilst I have the budget for it. ..... so many other less interesting demands on my budget could end up taking precedent..... I'm not taking that chance. 

 

Anyway ..... looking forward to another weekend regardless of the weather.

 

Toto 

[toto]

Update ..... flying cancelled today. The weather is not nice at all. I'm hanging my hat on tomorrow being a better day.

 

Ended up reading RC magazines and books instead. Done a little online shopping for some items as well. Makes up for the disappointment of not getting my sky time in.

 

Fingers crossed for a break in the weather tomorrow.

 

Toto

[kevin b]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Update ..... flying cancelled today. The weather is not nice at all. I'm hanging my hat on tomorrow being a better day.

 

Ended up reading RC magazines and books instead. Done a little online shopping for some items as well. Makes up for the disappointment of not getting my sky time in.

 

Fingers crossed for a break in the weather tomorrow.

 

Toto

Welcome to the club Toto.

You need more patience with the weather than you do building models !

[toto]

And it pays off. ..... a quick call from the flying site at just before mid- day ....... where are you ? Ha ha.

 

One hour later ..... back in the sky. 1st flight...... lets not talk about that  second attempt .... one complete but not necessarily pretty full circuit. The instructor trimmed back the amount of throttle to slooooooow things down just a tad and allow for more of a relaxed pace. 

 

I am far to heavy on my stick movements and also need to master turning and nosing up as two distinct tasks rather than turning them into one stick movement ..... if that makes sense. .... I'll get there. Practice, practice ...... and more practice.

 

Great fun if a little intense at times. 

 

Toto

[Don Fry]

On turning, it’s also known as yank and bank. Tiny pull back, bank, and pull a bit more back, and ease the bank off a bit. One stick movement, but sequential. Practice. 
As long as it does not result in an uncontrolled spin into the deck, any turn is a good turn. Don’t hit yourself over the head. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Don Fry
That’s, don’t self punish, not collect the aircraft on the noggin.

[toto]

My experience is ........ pull left or right, as the model starts to turn / bank left or right, pull back slightly to maintain height and level off by slightly pushing the stick in the opposite direction to level.

 

Does that sound about right ..... or a recipe for disaster 

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

I teach a smooth roll to 30 deg and then centralise the stick and ease back to keep the nose level.  Keeping to 30 deg of bank stops the nose dropping too much before you apply up elevator.  Also, try and keep movements smooth and don't snatch at the stick.

 

I also have a low rate for those who are having difficulty caused by over controlling until they get out of the habit of snatching at the stick.  Ask your instructor if they can set up a lower rate.  It's amazing how it "improves" your flying!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Communication, tell instructor how it feels, one mans setting may not suit another, you sound O.K though, normal stuff to overcontrol at first you ain't done it before.