First taste of the sky

[toto]

I take it a " low rate " is a restriction set into the controller to prevent aggressive changes in control surfaces. 

 

I know some kits come with this ability as a preset training mode.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

Many fliers set up planes with rates/flight modes that limit the amount of surface deflection.  This is different to electronic gizmos that limit the maximum amount of aircraft movement... e.g. low rates of 50% on ailerons will reduce the rate of roll, but it will still roll; in SAFE, the angle of roll is limited so it just will not complete a roll.  

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Over-controlling is pretty much normal, so don't fret 🙂

[toto]

Yes .... I can get that. 

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Toto

[Cuban8]

A terrible misconception that many beginners have is that they're going to need loads of control surface movement to enable them to get out of trouble!

At the training stage, all you'll need is just enough to do the job to give you basic steerage and control in the three dimensions and no more. When buddied up, your instructor will have this set on your tranny while having more in the way of response for himself.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

2 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

A terrible misconception that many beginners have is that they're going to need loads of control surface movement to enable them to get out of trouble!

 

Tell me about it, I never got further than 10 meters on my single rudder only planes, and no better when throwing a plane in the air, expecting the throwing will save you, the less throws the better !.

[toto]

I think they call it ....... blind panic. 

 

Never mind .... early days yet.

 

Toto

[paul devereux]

On 03/04/2023 at 17:11, Cuban8 said:

A terrible misconception that many beginners have is that they're going to need loads of control surface movement to enable them to get out of trouble!

At the training stage, all you'll need is just enough to do the job to give you basic steerage and control in the three dimensions and no more. When buddied up, your instructor will have this set on your tranny while having more in the way of response for himself.

Some models have SAFE as standard. Over in RCG there is some debate sometimes as to whether it is useful or a hindrance. Like this as an example: PSA: Beginners, don't do SAFE. - RC Groups

Edited April 6, 2023 by paul devereux

[toto]

My instructor has my buddy box set more or less the same as his I think. When he passes it over to me, there is the potential to pull off some pretty horrendously violent movements.

 

I mentioned that I bought a landing assist module for my carbon cub ...... didn't go down well at all. ..... not if I was training with him anyway.

 

I dont know if he thinks that this just slows the students learning time down and hinders progress or if this was an insult to his ability to teach. ..... I didn't ask. I guess I wont be needing it then .... 

 

Toto

[Philip Lewis 3]

Hi Toto,

 

As a long time experienced trainer I would refuse to teach somone using any form of flight control such as the SAFE Receivers, the reaon being you don't actually learn what an aircraft will actually do with your inputs, for example if the electronics limits the bank angle to 30 degrees you get  used to putting the stick right over and all you get is a nice comfortable 30 degree bank, in effect you are then building up the wrong muscle memory and then when you fly a plane without you then you find you can't fly it.

 

Besides which you aren't allowed to use it in an A test anyway so if that is what you aspire to then you are going to have to learn to fly without it anyway so you might as well learn the right way and right muscle memory from the start, epsceially if on the buddy lead as your instructor is your SAFE system.

 

If you are buddied up on a lead I would think you have exactly the same control as your instructor, generally apeaking on a buddy lead the stick outputs are given raw to the master and dion't go through any rates or expo, the rates and expo are all in the master transmitter.

 

Anyway keep going, you seem to me to be doing all the right things.

 

Phil

 

  

[PatMc]

IMO since you have an instructor (whom you seem happy with) all you really need from the forum is encouragement. Any advice offered that might raise doubt about what you are being or about to be taught isn't helpful no matter how well intended.  

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

15 minutes ago, PatMc said:

IMO since you have an instructor (whom you seem happy with) all you really need from the forum is encouragement. Any advice offered that might raise doubt about what you are being or about to be taught isn't helpful no matter how well intended.  

 

Absolutely, the important relationship is between Toto and his instructor, they seem to have that sorted so it's stick time n enjoy.

[Simon Chaddock]

toto

What you are doing is likely safe enough but remember it takes time for your brain to accurately interpret what the plane is doing and make the appropriate adjustment to your figures.

The problem is by the time you have worked out what is required the plane will feel it is slow to respond resulting in the learner putting in a bigger input. By the time the learner has worked out the true effect of this bigger input it requires an opposite input to restore to 'straight and level'. With practise you learn that a modest but timely input is all that is required.

 

I can still remember when I was learning to fly full size gliders on aerotow I found it almost impossible to keep the glider accurately in position behind the tug. When things got too out of hand the instructor would take over and with very modest stick movement it suddenly all got sorted out and maintained perfect station. 

Very frustrating but it does eventually "click".  

 

 

[Peter Jenkins]

8 hours ago, Simon Chaddock said:

I can still remember when I was learning to fly full size gliders on aerotow I found it almost impossible to keep the glider accurately in position behind the tug. When things got too out of hand the instructor would take over and with very modest stick movement it suddenly all got sorted out and maintained perfect station. 

Very frustrating but it does eventually "click".  

 

 

I had exactly that experience as well Simon!  As you say, it is all to do with staying ahead of the aeroplane when a small control movement is all that is required.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Peter Jenkins

[toto]

It's all Time, practice and percevierance I think. 

 

There is no other way around it. It's also not just about the destination but the journey as well. I'm up for that. 

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

Excellent.  That's the attitude to get you success.

[paul devereux]

Because I taught myself before learning to programme dual rates, I now find them a hindrance to control (it's only a Foam-E). I also have a 800mm SAFE plane, I can't fly it in SAFE mode- I keep think I've lost control (I have, in a way I suppose).

[toto]

When I first read some of the " improvements " made by some of the kit manufacturers since I last considered doing this ( probably 30 years ago ) I first thought .... wow ..... safe systems, LAS, GPS, virtual fences. That's great .... I must have some of that...... but ..... as mentioned in earlier posts, are they really doing you a favour or not as you are not really in control of the plane.

 

After some thought, I agree that you should train naked with none of these features if you want to understand how to get yourself out of a situation caused either by equipment failure ..... or more likely ..... operator error.

 

That said I have the LAS module for the Carbon Cub and I will fit it and try it out. It can be disarmed. The trainer I currently get to train with has no such systems. 

 

My aim is to become a competent flyer so I would like to achieve that first. Should a subsequent kit come equipped with the array of features, so be it. I may try them out to see how effective they are from a curiosity point of view, then , probably disarm them.

 

Toto

[J D 8]

     I learned before such things as duel rates were available, when they were I found them a bit of a nuisance as I forgot to switch and then lost a plane when in low rate and high was needed to pull out of dive and miss the ground.

 Since then rates have been just in my fingers and thumbs.

[toto]

Fair plat to you.

 

Just shows how the inexperienced ( me ) can jump into things making the wrong assumptions. As I said, I automatically thought some of these " safety " learning aids would he an advantage but its maybe a bit of reverse psychology in as much as they actually hold you back from actually being in control.

 

It's all very interesting.

 

Thanks

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

No, not everyone will share JD8's views.  I have used rates since returning to model flying in 2000.  Back in the sixties I started with single channel radio with rubber powered escapements.  One press for left rudder - full rudder - and press -release - press gave right rudder.   3 presses gave kick up elevator.  I then built from a kit of parts a 6 channel proportional radio Tx znd Rx and servo amplifiers.  That had no dual rates, servo reverse, servo travel or a host.of other features that we take for granted today.

 

I have flown full size gliders,  including cross country flights, and light aircraft, including two international flights.  The big difference is that the full size pilot gets lots of information through the feel of the controls which we model pilots don't.  So the use of rates, in my opinion, play a major role in the effective control of our aircraft.

 

Of course, not everyone, like JD8, uses rates but I have from right after I went solo.  Yes, I once went to perform a bunt and realised too late that I had started to low and I'd run out of conrtol movement as I was on low rates.  You learn that there is little to be gained by having 3 rate switches when using 1 to control all 3 rates is much better and simpler.  As regards forgetting which rates you are using it comes down to having a system and using it.  It's like pre-flight checks, so having pre take off checks and pre landing checks are worth it to avoid trying to land with, for examlle, high idle selected.  Why would you have a high idle?  Can be helpful in stalling and spinning to avoid the engine stopping but you want a low idle for landing.

 

If you adopt full size practice of always following the same routine there is less chance of being caught out.  They learned by losing their lives - we just lose models!

 

Yes, I do follow what I preach.

[toto]

Just shows, there is no one fits all. 

 

All methods have their merit but as you say, maybe their merit can be seen in a different light depending on you flying protocols and attention / adoption of certain pre- flight routines and your adherence to them.

 

All valid points which have my opinion changing and reviewing over and over. At the same time, not necessarily confusing nor conflicting depending on how you intend to base your approach to flying.

 

Thanks for all the opinions / responses, all greatly appreciated in the great school of learning

Toto 

[GrumpyGnome]

I only have 'dual rates', per se, for test flights. Then choose the best rate, and remove the others.

 

I do, though, use multiple flight modes with different mixes, curves, and rates.

 

Not a fan of SAFE etc at all - instils false confidence in my experience.

 

Gyros/AS3X etc have their place, but not as a default.

 

Other opinions are available.....

[toto]

Good, healthy informed debate I'd say. Especially for someone new to the hobby. Food for thought.

 

Toto

[PDB]

During my first 10 months with a Boomerang flying in as many conditions as possible in the main practicing the A test and countless landings I've had no use for dual rates. I did find some of the controls a bit sensitive initially and was shown how to address this mechanically. 

 

Recently I've got an Easyglider whos speed range greatly varies from thermal hunting to high speed passes. I find the controls for high speed are too sensitive so for the first time I'm using dual rates to tame it.

 

Being on a tight budget I've bought a few small glow engines and a bunch of foam board to knock up some models and I'll be using dual rates for the early flights to tame any over sensitivity.

 

For me there are certain circumstances when dual rates have proved useful.

Edited April 9, 2023 by PDB
.

[toto]

Ok, 

 

So another weekend at the flying field. Today was just an inactive visit as we never had a trainer to take me up. No worries there. I had a great time watching others and , as usual, asking loads of questions.

 

Tomorrow is different, I'm airborne again. However, a curved ball has been thrown into the mix as I am changing instructor. My previous instructor was only a stand in to get me going. The thing is, there maybe a change in regime. I've been told my new instructor has a Spektrum transmitter and is usually keen to train folks on their own trainer .... if they have one. 

 

The good thing is both transmitters are comparable for buddying so that's fine. I believe tomorrow I will be using the club trainer ( glow fuel ) whilst I think my electric trainer ( carbon cub ) is possibly discussed for going forward. Not sure yet. I'll go with the flow. 

 

Hopefully, this will be my instructor going forward as I believe he operates a little differently from others when teaching. I believe he is exhibition standard so maybe I should feel privileged..... or petrified. .

 

I'll be keen to get to a regular regime which will maybe let me settle down a bit as well. 

 

Looking forward to terrorising the skies again tomorrow.

 

Toto