BMFA Achievement schemes

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not sure if we've had a link to this ?

Worth a read and it may clarify some questions that've been raised recently, also it gives the BMFA's thinking on things.

John

[Erfolg]

I have read the link, I am not sure of why. I can guess, although the piece does not state why a Basic test is necessary or what it is expected to deliver to all concerned.

It could be just a personal way of seeing the world. For me any test has a goal. It could be a qualification which says, you have achieved a standard which sets you apart, you are part of an elite. It could be to demonstrate that you have reached a standard that is expected, to be allowed to undertake some role or task. It could be to satisfy some regulatory requirement. This concept or idea sets everything that follows for me.

Again this type of subject could be published via the mag, to reach all members. Unlike some I do value the mag, I see the mag as the ideal vehicle to inform us, the members, of what it is that the BMFA does, although in this case, possibly about the legal framework we play within and ensure that we recognise our obligations to ourselves and others to operate safely. Not to moralise, to be myopic in addressing just one section.

I personally do like the concept of testing the understanding of all us modellers relative to the ANO. i do not like the use of numbers, particularly as there seems to be +138 from the example given. I also think that conventional safety is important, and would welcome some testing on this aspect. Such as the operation of a safe working environment, the flight line box/model park. I would like a basic test that has three parts based on, basic skill demonstration, regulatory requirements test and a conventional safety test.

I cannot say i am opposed, nor in favour, although interested as to what the changes are going to achieve and the why.

[Dave Hopkin]

In the current environment with all the media attention on "drones" and various bodies pressing for additional legislation it is crucial that the BMFA encourages its members to be fully aware of the ANO and how it impacts model flying - to not do so could be portrayed as the BMFA silently condoning illegal flying.

[Dickw]

Just check on the Achievement Scheme Downloads part of the BMFA site, and the reasons for the Basic Proficiency Certificate are explained in the new 2016 guidance notes for the tests as follows (my bold italics ):-

“The ‘BPC’ is a measure of flying ability and safety which "may be equated to a safe solo standard of flying" for aircraft that do not meet the requirements for the A certificate.”

One of the requirements for doing the 'A' test, for example, is that the model should not be gyro stabilised. Another example might be any weight limits for the ‘A’ test.

So the new BPC tests give a lot more room for newcomers to the hobby to have a go at something, and for clubs to assess if they can operate at a basic reasonable level of proficiency.

I can’t see anything wrong with that concept.

Dick

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The worry about the "numbers" is a worry over nothing Erf, the gist of them is the important bit, not whether you get the number right, and personally I think that's pretty obvious to the Examiners.

John

[Erfolg]

I do not doubt that there is a reason for the introduction of these schemes, some of which are new to me. What matters is that the membership and those who may wish to take them know the logic for each scheme.

At present the BMFA web site does not seem to be visited by many. More do see the mag. More important still is to sell the schemes to us all, members regulators and any other stake holders (luv, the modern jargon).

I may be very supportive, If knew what they are and why, which could also be true for many others.

To you John the numbers may not matter, for many members they will be deterred by this obstacle, yet in truth they could well know the principal, and even the detail of a specific aspect of the acts or regulation. The numerical identification could well act as a barrier. A better approach for the majority could be more specific,perhaps asking pointedly, what is the minimum separation distance required between people and property and a model under various situations. I am sure that more often than not the candidate will be able to provide the broad brush requirements, some provide chapter and verse.

Given that the principal issue today is ensuring that members know the requirements of the ANO, the mag could run a series of articles of what the acts state and then an interpretation of how the regulation should be interpreted and how the principals put into practise. Perhaps illustrations of what is not acceptable.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I made my point poorly Erf, I'm not saying the number doesn't matter to me, what I meant was I expect this worry to be addressed when Examiners get their paper work, it's knowledge of content being wanted not strictly the number...

John

[Airpaddler]

Having been " loving flying" for almost five years i would like to say that "I have no intention of being tested by anybody." As a result my club membership is almost useless. I can only fly in the presence of a club instructor "even now" then only when he will be there at the site and only when he does not wish to be flying himself. Effectively about 1 to 2% of possible flying opportunities. I can name at least eight people in my time with the club who have given up in frustration and anger. Also no little expense. It is good little club but spoiled by BMFA imposed bureaucracy and petty officialdom. I conceed the essential need for safety and control of inevitable cowboys. - But I address the needs of an entry level senior person. - I fear you are nurturing very few!

I luckily have somewhere private to fly. Otherwise I certainly would not be a current participant.

Thanks for the opportunity to get that off my chest.

[Masher]

It seems a shame that you have got into this situation Airpaddler, there is a lot to be gained from being part of a club.

It's taken me a lifetime to realise that sometimes it is best to just back down and get on with life. So....... if it's a "good little club", why don't you just comply then enjoy being part of it? Anyone with the basic skills, and it sounds like you have those, can pass an 'A' test in about 15 minutes plus a night of reading the BMFA handbook - then fly whenever you want and enjoy the fun of being in the club.

What's to loose?

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 06:58:03:

Having been " loving flying" for almost five years i would like to say that "I have no intention of being tested by anybody." As a result my club membership is almost useless. I can only fly in the presence of a club instructor "even now" then only when he will be there at the site and only when he does not wish to be flying himself. Effectively about 1 to 2% of possible flying opportunities. I can name at least eight people in my time with the club who have given up in frustration and anger. Also no little expense. It is good little club but spoiled by BMFA imposed bureaucracy and petty officialdom. I conceed the essential need for safety and control of inevitable cowboys. - But I address the needs of an entry level senior person. - I fear you are nurturing very few!

I luckily have somewhere private to fly. Otherwise I certainly would not be a current participant.

Thanks for the opportunity to get that off my chest.

 

 

Do you apply the same criteria to driving a car?

As for "BMFA imposed bureaucracy" sorry but you are categorically wrong, any testing process demanded by the club is determined by the club itself the BMFA does not (and cannot) enforce any standards on a club they are totally independent - Yes many clubs use the A certificate as a yardstick because its easy to do that, others have their own club test, other simply make a judgement call on whether a flyer is safe to fly or not

Edited By Dave Hopkin on 21/03/2016 07:28:14

[John Lee]

Posted by Erfolg on 20/03/2016 15:06:56:I also think that conventional safety is important, and would welcome some testing on this aspect. Such as the operation of a safe working environment, the flight line box/model park. I would like a basic test that has three parts based on, basic skill demonstration, regulatory requirements test and a conventional safety test.

That's exactly what has been adopted - a flight test, 5 questions on the regulatory environment and 5 questions on general safety.

[Airpaddler]

I do not apply the same criteria to driving a car. I fly as a hobby and a recreation. Not a lifestyle.

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

I have flown for a good while, competently and without any H&S issues. Governance not required!!

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 09:03:43:

I do not apply the same criteria to driving a car. I fly as a hobby and a recreation. Not a lifestyle.

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

I have flown for a good while, competently and without any H&S issues. Governance not required!!

I am afraid that type of attitude is exactly the sort of thinking that will encourage more and more mandatory controls .

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It's your choice, of course, but I'd echo the sentiments of the other responders and to a casual observer, it seems like you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There's so much to be gained from a club - but not everyone will have your expertise and life experience and many see the A test as something to strive for with the carrot of being allowed to operate alone by their club. If the majority see the benefit and have voted to adopt the A test as a requirement, would it be fair to the other members to expect not to demonstrate your competence and knowledge by passing this simple test?

[Cuban8]

So are the existing 'A' cert test forms still OK to use on an 'A' test? Albeit with noting on them which mandatory questions have been asked.

[Don Fry]

I am not a great lover of the A test as a solo requirement, the new basic test seems just the job to satisfy that safe operation is kept. As a French resident, French flyers rarely have any qualification, and the gross differences in standards of safety, and operational practices makes you very wary for your own safety at times. The rules are the same, the ANO equivalents are the same, but a much poorer safety environment because of the lack of a common training regime. And less enjoyment because you watch your own back.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I'm sorry Airpaddler but I am firmly of the view that you have this wrong!

That model aircraft have the potential to be dangerous I think is obvious. If its obvious to us then it obvious to others as well. We have to be seen to be responsible and taking due care - failure to do so will only cause us greater problems. What we need here is a sensible approach, with moderate, light touch, governance. And I believe that, by and large, in most clubs that is precisely what we have.

Bear in mind in the UK we have the freedom to fly aircraft weighing up to 20Kg without any legally enforcable airworthiness checks or pilot proficiency test. There is absolutely nothing to stop us constructing such aircraft capable of speeds of over 100mph. I cannot see that it is at all unreasonable to request that anyone who is to have those freedoms successfully complete a very rudimentary proficiency test to establish their basic competance and safe operating proceedures. Indeed it would seem to me, as I suspect it would to most of the public, that the unresonablness would seem to be coming from people who believe they should have that right automatically with no assessment/training what-so-ever! How many times have we been asked by members of the general public "do you need a licence to fly these?" They clearly have that expectation. The fact is we don't of course - and it would good if it stayed that way. But one element that will contribute to that relaxed governance will be if we display a voluntary level of sensible self regulation.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 21/03/2016 11:07:16

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 09:03:43:

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

Interesting question posed here...as the BMFA only advise on safety and legal issues, does "fun" mean operating outside these very wide ranging and non- restricting guidelines?

[iqon]

you want to be in a club ? , and fly whenever you want ?. Then there is a test. Plain and simple...or is that plane and simple......

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

You can use the existing A test forms. Just indicate which questions you asked. The new forms that come out have a section for this. The form for the BPC can be downloaded from the webite.

[Cuban8]

Thanks Andy.

[Erfolg]

In some respects I do see why you could have all the various groups of "achievement award", in that I increasingly see a large number of models being flown with stabililising systems. These models range from Trainers, with apparently 2 or 3 stability levels, then there are very small models I believe made primarily by E-Flight, where the stability control has made this size of model flyable at all, when wind is present, and the final group i am aware of which are some very large models where stability control smoothes out the flight pattern.

Yet I am left with the question of why bother. What is the purpose of these various groups. Perhaps even more puzzling is that it really does appear to be increasingly difficult where technology is heading in this area.

I can see the logic of the "A" test, in that it appeared to be used as a standard to decide who could within a specific club be allowed to fly unsupervised. On the other hand, I will be shortly be looking for a different club, I now hold a "A" cert, but I will expect that my new club will want to either formerly require me to fly with another member. For two reasons, the first I have seen some "B" cert holders that you may be cautious off, the second is to embed the nuances of the new environment with the newcomer. Although I also acknowledge that Greenacres, relies on the "A" cert and a briefing about the site and general operational requirements.

So where do the latest schemes fit in.

I do disagree that the "A" test takes only 15 minutes, my own tests each took 1 hr. Approx 15 minutes of the main flying test for the first part and probably 10 minutes for the second part of the test.

For those who do not want to take the test, I would advice, if the club wants it, it is easier to go with the flow. Probably only the first couple of flights had an instructor specifically involved. There after you increasingly find that almost any competent flier will stand with you and be pretty disinterested. I found it very reassuring as it is akin to competition flying (with gliders), where your spotters are telling you what is going on around you. Although in these instances, you do have to involve your spotter. In short your club mates get bored just standing there, you get a spotter. One final piece of advice, you need a model that is well suited to the task, that has the duration, has a reasonable glide etc.

My thought on the practical aspect of the "A" test, is that it increasingly is becoming more specific in the detail of manoeuvres. I see the only true value of this part is to observe safe control of the model. Not about precision, but sensible and therefore safe operation.

So what is the purpose, as I have a feeling of to many schemes.

Edited By Erfolg on 21/03/2016 14:15:48

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 21/03/2016 14:13:00:

I do disagree that the "A" test takes only 15 minutes, my own tests each took 1 hr. Approx 15 minutes of the main flying test for the first part and probably 10 minutes for the second part of the test.

But Erf - as you have said yourself on previous occassions your club runs some sort of A-test all of its own - though heaven only knows why! So you cannot extrapolate for your experience. My club runs the test as described in the guidelines provided by the BMFA and I've never known a test to last longer than 20mins.

BEB

[Erfolg]

BEB, I can only judge on my experiences.

How different is supposably two consecutive loops. The rest is supposed to be the same, as I understand it.

Perhaps the biggest difference in my flying after the "A" test is that I now land the model some 30 feet from me. With a aim to finish at 90 degrees to the pit line/flight line. Whereas I would typically land the model about 2 feet from me, as most typical glider people do. Or on one occasion flying my glider into my hand. Much to the displeasure of the club. As these practises were not in keeping with the club way of operating, I just adapted. In essence I am no better as a flyer than I was before, although now deemed to be safer against the criteria used for power flying.

I understand some of the reasons for a high threshold in some club tests. In the case of Club 2, photographs do not show the close proximity of trees all around the field. Although the situation has been improved dramatically in the past year, whilst maintaining wild life friendly environment. Perhaps this can be demonstrated clearly by an dramatic increase in the sight of Kestrels hunting in the outfield, plus Buzzards also using the area.The other is that the Mersey bounds the field on approx. 2.5 sides (the field is ox bowed).

At present I have two concerns, the first is how these new categories fit in to the old system, the second is that "A" test becomes more of a precision flying test, than a demonstration of safe controlled operation, incl. flying.

[kc]

Could we have less words and more accuracy please?

Especially accuracy in choice of words with a sensible meaning and not something which sounds a bit similar. We can only guess at what is meant by some of the recent items in this thread.

The BMFA  site says    "If you present with a model ......"         Is that good English?     Is the meaning clear?  Lets have less words & greater accuracy!

Edited By kc on 21/03/2016 17:05:58

Edited By kc on 21/03/2016 17:06:47