Electric Cars.

[Cuban8]

8 hours ago, Erfolg said:

Now that is a really interesting video.

 

The process does seem pretty time, procedure, equipment and skill/knowledge driven. In other word it will come at a cost, the question then become how much.

 

I am not knocking what was done, it helps putting into context, what is possible, a problem that can affect a battery pack.

 

Many years ago I saw a rolling chassis of a Model s at a Knutsford show room, next door to a Supercar Sales outlet. The car seemed more in keeping with Kit Car or a Traditional build, being a ladder chassis (the battery was inserted between the rails), with body work mounted on top. I wonder are the established car producers using unitary/monocoque type shells (being stiffer normally).

 

I suspect that servicing costs being higher than originally suggested as a combination of equipment and trained people. Will they come down with time, or now established, facing resistance to reduction, to maintain income similar to IC?

 

 

 

Yes it's facinating - 7000 Vape batteries ! I understand that some manufacturers prefer lots of little 'uns and others go for fewer but larger cells, I believe the BMW Mini follows the second method.

Third party specialist repairers will gradually gain a foothold and give the manufacturers' main dealers a run for their money. As with IC, very many TP specialists may well begin to offer a superior service to customers over the main dealers, both in terms of quality and pricing. Not sure if manufacturers are permitted to withhold specialist 'intellectual property' such as technical literature, software etc from third parties - independant garages seem to manage perfectly well with new tech, but not ever being in the motor trade I don't know how things work between them and the main dealers. Lots of very clever and resourceful people out there who can get around most things. I had the instrument cluster in my Mondeo refurbished by a third party specialist who did a superb job repairing it compared to the main dealers solution of a replacement that came to four times the cost of the repair. £240 compared to near a grand from Ford.

Should you ever need a similar service I can recommend these folks https://www.actronics.co.uk/contact 

Only as a satisfied customer, no other connections. They don't deal directly with the public but the device to be repaired is removed by one of their panel of nationwide garage partners and couriered to them. Local garage charged me fifty quid to remove/courier/replace the cluster. very reasonable.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Cuban8

[Frank Skilbeck]

53 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

With IC it will be about regenerative devices, emissions etc.

 

The electronics also control, the fuel injection, ignition, temperatures, catalytic converters, particulate filters etc etc and they log any faults, so the "mechanic" can plug it in and see if the car has developed any faults. Big problem on many modern diesels is the EGR valves getting clogged up if they are only driven on short journeys. My ICE car has already been in for an EGR cooler safety recall, apparently they could leak and cause a fire in extreme cases.

 

Years ago before all these fancy electronics a workmate had a Lancia Beta, the indicators had a mind of their own, she took it back to the dealer several times and eventually they just shrugged their shoulders and said we don't know what the problem is............................

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

11 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

Big problem on many modern diesels is the EGR valves getting clogged up

It happened to my 407 diesel at around 200.000 klm's, they do a kit of spray cartridges, and yes it did the job for at least 35.000klm's when I sold it.

 

[IDD15]

Further to the recent discussion about battery swapping and its viability I was quite surprised to read this:

 

Elektrek - NIO pass 30 Million battery swaps.

It obviously works for some drivers.

 

cheers

idd

 

[MattyB]

Technically viable? Maybe, but with  no other company doing it and Nio have crippling year on year losses, overall long term viability is a long way off being proved IMO…

 

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/08/29/nio-earnings-q2-2023.html

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Losses, that what Tesla stared off with 🙃

[Nigel R]

On 06/10/2023 at 17:33, Erfolg said:

Hmmmm, how much labour was involved? 

Probably thousands and thousands of hours behind the scenes making the diagnostic software and working on the upgrade.

 

[flight1]

Well toyota been holding off on producing electric cars due to the fact thay can see the failings of current battrey tech, and are betting on ammonia power engines.  no carbon in ammonia  so no carbon emissions.

it's the future! or just one part of multiple solutions of getting energy with out carbon emissions

[IDD15]

3 hours ago, MattyB said:

Technically viable? Maybe, but with  no other company doing it and Nio have crippling year on year losses, overall long term viability is a long way off being proved IMO…

 

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/08/29/nio-earnings-q2-2023.html

If no other company does it and adopts their “standard” then my guess is that battery swapping for cars will not be viable in the future.

It is by no means new this battery swapping tech either. As this gently amusing 20 minutes of EV history shows…

Fully Charged - Early ev

 

enjoy

idd

[EvilC57]

9 hours ago, flight1 said:

Well toyota been holding off on producing electric cars due to the fact thay can see the failings of current battrey tech, and are betting on ammonia power engines.  no carbon in ammonia  so no carbon emissions.

it's the future! or just one part of multiple solutions of getting energy with out carbon emissions

BZ4X?

[Frank Skilbeck]

10 hours ago, flight1 said:

Well toyota been holding off on producing electric cars due to the fact thay can see the failings of current battrey tech, and are betting on ammonia power engines.  no carbon in ammonia  so no carbon emissions.

it's the future! or just one part of multiple solutions of getting energy with out carbon emissions

Or https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyotas-advanced-battery-technology-roadmap/

 

Also interesting article in the Telegraph on Goldman Sachs review of BEV battery developments, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/10/world-ev-battery-revolution-through-eyes-goldman-sachs/, basically the technology is developing at a rapid rate, improvements not only in battery tech but also lithium refining will see energy density increase while charging times and costs will tumble. Bit annoying that one of the new break throughs, developed at Imperial College, first factory is being built in South Korea.

[flight1]

All I can see is a lot of uptalk and marketing, but of course time will tell.  What gets me is this tunnel vision type approach to this carbon problem and the finite fossel fuel dependency, we need to have a multisolution approach and vision (we can't have all our eggs in one basket?) I do believe Toyota is taking this approach

 

 

[Lipo Man]

18 minutes ago, flight1 said:

All I can see is a lot of uptalk and marketing, but of course time will tell.  What gets me is this tunnel vision type approach to this carbon problem and the finite fossel fuel dependency, we need to have a multisolution approach and vision (we can't have all our eggs in one basket?) I do believe Toyota is taking this approach

 

 

I’ve had over 20 years working in the automotive industry.  It’s over a decade since it became obvious to me that a 100% switch to EVs was inevitable. It is in fact the opposite of putting our eggs in one basket. If you build an ICE car it is ICE powered for its entire life. If you build an EV it’s powered by whatever powers the grid - so it can get lower carbon over time as the grid shifts more to renewables. And when we start getting intelligent connections between these cars and the grid (so at times of peak demand the grid can draw power from the car batteries for a short period to cope with a demand surge) the cars actually help the grid rather than being the huge burden they might first appear. When every home has a big battery parked on the drive connected to the grid we no longer need gas turbine power stations sat at idle ready for power surges as we all turn on our kettles in the ad break…

 

 

[flight1]

58 minutes ago, Lipo Man said:

I’ve had over 20 years working in the automotive industry.  It’s over a decade since it became obvious to me that a 100% switch to EVs was inevitable. It is in fact the opposite of putting our eggs in one basket. If you build an ICE car it is ICE powered for its entire life. If you build an EV it’s powered by whatever powers the grid - so it can get lower carbon over time as the grid shifts more to renewables. And when we start getting intelligent connections between these cars and the grid (so at times of peak demand the grid can draw power from the car batteries for a short period to cope with a demand surge) the cars actually help the grid rather than being the huge burden they might first appear. When every home has a big battery parked on the drive connected to the grid we no longer need gas turbine power stations sat at idle ready for power surges as we all turn on our kettles in the ad break…

 

 

There is a few flaws in that the grid is nowhere near renewable capable it is going to take a least 50 years and trillions invested. The cars acting like 'grid savers' is a nice idea but it's no good if you battery is not full when you need to get somewhere, especially in a sudden emergency. the best way to overcome the grid demand is to build 80,90% or more off grid house all very doable with tech as it is now.

Also every one is ignoring the eviromental distruction and carbon  produced by making current tech batteries. these batteries are  nowhere near the energy density require to power lorries and agricultural machinery. For city puttering around shopping current electric tech is ok

Still we need a multi fuel/power approach .

[Ron Gray]

1 hour ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I wonder if it would be better to split off the car park fire into a new topic?

Yes please

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

OT posts split into new thread:

 

 

[Erfolg]

I totally agree Flight 1, the various ideas such as using car batteries to re-enforce the grid, is somewhat optimistic at the practical level. 

 

The issues are real, for the committed carbon net zero, is the cost, the energy losses, from transmission of the grid.  the intermittency, With respect to the wind turbines and the real output capability of the machines (the realistic power generation, rather than max). These are the elephants in the room. That is generally why the typical gas, coal station would be built close to the conurbation's, rather in out of the way places.

 

No concerns seem to be voiced about the carbon releases from cement production, water consumption, nor the steel, copper and aluminium production or recycling. 

 

I was recently disappointingly surprised to read, that some wind turbine blades are already being decommissioned, that solar panels will not (at present) generate more energy than was used to manufacture them, that in the UK it will take +100 years to pay for themselves, at the current generation earnings. I must admit, this bit does not fit with the numbers of commercial solar farms.

 

I do find it frustrating to work out the true costings due to the subsidies and penalties surrounding these issues. Very occasionally we do read about some of the true costs, although not often.

 

As for electric cars, we will see them becoming dominant, who will be able to afford them, again, a crystal ball will be needed, particularly reassuring predictions never seem to arrive. I do not worry though, as I remember that "Nuclear Power" will be so cheap and efficient, we will not meter it

 

 

 

 

 

 

cently 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Any big change brings about debate, for or against. This change is to protect your planet (some would dispute that) cost is a choice between dealing with that, or not.

[Don Fry]

Erf is right in one respect, carbon use has to be taxed, possibly the only tax governments will need. Learn to life carbon neutral, no tax to pay. Makes sense.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Erflog where are you getting that info on solar panels from, the articles I have read eg https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/how-eco-friendly-are-they suggest 3 years before they are carbon neutral.

 

Don't forget that the development, extraction, transportation, refining and distribution of fossil fuels also have significant emissions. Old coal mines are estimated to make up around 12% of methane emissions and I have worked with US based companies that see nothing wrong with installing a cold vent (ie unburnt methane) on small production facilities rather than collect deal with low pressure gas.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Frank Skilbeck

[IDD15]

Some good news reported by Zap Map is that we have now hit 50,000 public charging devices!

 

Zap Map News - 50000 UK Public Charge Points

 

Most importantly the rate at which devices are coming online is increasing sharply, as quoted from the article:

 

"Indeed, the timing of the milestone also demonstrates the acceleration in the rate of charge point installation over recent years. October’s 50,000 charge point milestone follows hot on the heels of the 40,000 mark, which the UK surpassed in February 2023. In this case, the milestone installation was part of the GeniePoint network, at Morrisons Southport.

 

Looking back further, the UK hit 30,000 charging devices in February 2022 (bp pulse, Botany Bay), which followed the 20,000 mark in September 2020 (Pod Point, Tesco Superstore Scarborough). The 10,000 charging devices milestone came in August 2018, with the installation of an InstaVolt device at Meadowfield Filling Station."

 

There is more to be done of course, there are still quite a few charging deserts out there, but with the number of home charge points now estimated at close to 1 million things are improving all the time. There are a lot more stats about charging infrastructure on the Zap Map website for those interested.

 

cheers

 

idd

 

[Learner]

14 minutes ago, IDD15 said:

Some good news reported by Zap Map is that we have now hit 50,000 public charging devices!

 

Zap Map News - 50000 UK Public Charge Points

 

Most importantly the rate at which devices are coming online is increasing sharply, as quoted from the article:

 

"Indeed, the timing of the milestone also demonstrates the acceleration in the rate of charge point installation over recent years. October’s 50,000 charge point milestone follows hot on the heels of the 40,000 mark, which the UK surpassed in February 2023. In this case, the milestone installation was part of the GeniePoint network, at Morrisons Southport.

 

Looking back further, the UK hit 30,000 charging devices in February 2022 (bp pulse, Botany Bay), which followed the 20,000 mark in September 2020 (Pod Point, Tesco Superstore Scarborough). The 10,000 charging devices milestone came in August 2018, with the installation of an InstaVolt device at Meadowfield Filling Station."

 

There is more to be done of course, there are still quite a few charging deserts out there, but with the number of home charge points now estimated at close to 1 million things are improving all the time. There are a lot more stats about charging infrastructure on the Zap Map website for those interested.

 

cheers

 

idd

 

Are they all powered by wind and solar?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Who knows?  My energy supplier claims that 100% of my electricity is from "green" sources.  I'm yet to work out how they select the green electrons to route to my consumer unit though...

[Frank Skilbeck]

3 hours ago, Learner said:

Are they all powered by wind and solar?

No but even if 100% powered by combined cycle gas power generation they use less fossil fuel than an IC car, due the quite poor efficiency of an IC engine compared to the much higher efficiency of an electric motor.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Plan is to generate cleaner lecky in the future, talk of comparisons at this early stage is pretty pointless. You have to start somewhere.