Electric Cars.

[Erfolg]

Much that some would take as anti EVs comes from the business pages of the media, the interest  tends to centre or be about investment, company performance in the short and long term.

 

I am surprised in the vast amounts of money, spent on EVs development, some having burnt through, I think it was close to a billion, before going bust (vans).

 

As for concrete usage, yep, it seems that the oil industry has used some, although it would or will be interesting to know a comparative world wide snap shot of how much goes into all the platforms and anchors, compared to wind  turbines (a few hundred are being built off-sure here on the Fylde). Although comparing energy delivered to some unit of concrete is required.

 

I am not pro or anti oil, I do wonder where we will be without oil, for polymers, lubricants and other non transport uses.

 

I totally agree that the world is overpopulated. We see it particularly in the UK (England). As a country we cannot supply our food needs, even if we all just ate Turnips, (not even a bad joke). As for the wider world, there are issues where ever you look, often with great suffering. As to the answer, until it is recognised as an issue, problems will remain and grow.

 

There are two ancient wind mills here, both becoming uneconomic with the coming of stem an electricity. So called free energy is nor an answer in itself. 

 

I read this week that by 2040 (to my mind very optimistic) the first commercially viable Fusion Reactor will be operating.  A 5s burst will power an incredible number of kettles. I thought how does that in principle equate to customer demand?

 

I now see that tyre dust is now an environmental issue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Frank Skilbeck]

35 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

 

 

As for concrete usage, yep, it seems that the oil industry has used some, although it would or will be interesting to know a comparative world wide snap shot of how much goes into all the platforms and anchors, compared to wind  turbines (a few hundred are being built off-sure here on the Fylde). Although comparing energy delivered to some unit of concrete is required.

 

 

The giant deepwater concrete platforms are a bit of a North Sea speciality, mainly due to the deep water fjords in Norway where they could be built and connected.to the topsides. The did manage to.sink one in the fjord when.the ballasting system failed, it registered around 6 on the richter scale when.it hit the.bottom if I recall. But onshore facilities usually have fairly substansial concrete foundations too and as noted every well world.wide will have its various strings of casing cemented in place. A cost per unit energy produced would be interesting as well as total CO2 released per unit of energy produced too, including the construction, extraction, conversion and delivery to the end user. There's an interesting article studying the increasing amount of energy required to produce oil, https://jpt.spe.org/plummeting-energy-return-on-investment-of-oil-and-the-impact-on-global-energy-landscape , 

[John Rickett 102]

Frank, I think it was about 6am when Sleipner went down in Gandsfjord. I was in bed in Stavanger and was woken by the thud! 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

One factor I've never seen discussed is that of the effect of converting natural energy into heat.  For example, we're converting moving air masses (we call it wind) into electrical energy which might have an effect on weather patterns (maybe a bit of a "butterfly effect"), photo energy being trapped and converted to electricity rather than reflecting into space, tidal flow being modified and I expect many more examples.  The majority of this "clean" energy ends up being converted to heat - and I suspect will contribute to global warming.

 

This (and any) planet has a finite life so we're only delaying the inevitable but I fear that war and famine will perform a partial reset unless we can halt (and reverse) the imbalances from unsustainable population pressure.  I suspect that whether we're powering our cars with (direct) fossil fuels or electricity will be the least of our concerns...

 

 

[Frank Skilbeck]

45 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

One factor I've never seen discussed is that of the effect of converting natural energy into heat.  For example, we're converting moving air masses (we call it wind) into electrical energy which might have an effect on weather patterns (maybe a bit of a "butterfly effect"), photo energy being trapped and converted to electricity rather than reflecting into space, tidal flow being modified and I expect many more examples.  The majority of this "clean" energy ends up being converted to heat - and I suspect will contribute to global warming.

 

This (and any) planet has a finite life so we're only delaying the inevitable but I fear that war and famine will perform a partial reset unless we can halt (and reverse) the imbalances from unsustainable population pressure.  I suspect that whether we're powering our cars with (direct) fossil fuels or electricity will be the least of our concerns...

 

 

Actually the Earth radiates heat, without greenhouse gases we would be at a toasty -16 degC, as most of the heat from the Sun is radiated back into space, but this infra red radiation excites some molecules, namely H20, methane and CO2, which in turn heat the surrounding air.

 

And just about all carbon based fuels end up being turned into heat, a typical IC engine turns over 70% of the stored energy in the fuel into heat, well it actually turns 100% of it to heat but then turns less than 30% into motion.

[Don Fry]

All engines turn all their energy into heat. Efficiency equals wot bit of it is useful to the destroyer of energy, ie the driver.  Big, heavy, grunty, fast, SUV s are very poor at energy efficiency. Small, light, boring, slow, gets further down the road. 
Mind, when I smoked boring equalled you could roll a fag. 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There's certainly a lot of hot stuff not very far under our feet! 

 

Funnily enough, I was just hypothesising with someone earlier that the heat wasted by an IC engine seems to be the main reason why I've noticed the dramatic effect of headwinds/tailwinds on my electric car.  I do a fairly regular 120 mile out and return trip to somewhere northeast of me and on several occasions have had a 35 mph or so tailwind on the way out - and headwind on the way back.  The consumption is dramatically different on each leg - to a far greater degree than I've ever noticed with an IC car - but it balances out over the trip.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Very interesting topic. One which gets some people holding strong stances in favour or against. Over population ? Yes it's a fact, so is what that population does whilst it's on the planet, cherry picking ?

 

Steam and coal brought great change, anyone in any doubt it brought problems as well ? Pollution was horrendous where I grew up, rivers open sewers air quality, you could see it and taste it over any pit village or large industrial citys/towns, anyone doubt that changes that came about improved things ?

 

Tall buildings any different to wind farms ?

 

Can't see wind/solar/water being described as clean or free myself, cleaner and better for the planet I do see, emissions reduced by not burning I see.

 

Tyre residue ? My cars I.C It's tyres wear.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

2 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

There's certainly a lot of hot stuff not very far under our feet! 

 

Funnily enough, I was just hypothesising with someone earlier that the heat wasted by an IC engine seems to be the main reason why I've noticed the dramatic effect of headwinds/tailwinds on my electric car.  I do a fairly regular 120 mile out and return trip to somewhere northeast of me and on several occasions have had a 35 mph or so tailwind on the way out - and headwind on the way back.  The consumption is dramatically different on each leg - to a far greater degree than I've ever noticed with an IC car - but it balances out over the trip.

 

Tail or headwind would effects I.C Martin, you're just more conscious of it now.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There is that and I tried to take it into account.   The thing is, if @70% of the fuel's energy is being wasted as heat, only @30% is being used to provide motive power and the percentage difference in fuel used due to the wind resistance will be far less.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

40 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Efficiency equals wot bit of it is useful to the destroyer of energy, ie the driver. 

I never realised that Mr. Newton got it all wrong and that I'm capable of destroying energy.  If only I could work out how to create it!

[Philip Lewis 3]

32 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

There is that and I tried to take it into account.   The thing is, if @70% of the fuel's energy is being wasted as heat, only @30% is being used to provide motive power and the percentage difference in fuel used due to the wind resistance will be far less.

Sorry Martin that won't work, headwind needs more power which also creates more heat and is in equal proportion, obviously works the same the other way round. Driving at say 60mph roadspeed into a headwind of 35mph is driving against 95mph of wind resistance, downwind only driving into 25 mph wind resistance, supprised that you didn't notice the difference that would make over a reasonable distance.  

Edited February 12 by Philip Lewis 3
Spelling

[Frank Skilbeck]

As Philip notes, but an IC engines efficiency varies with load and rpm, at high load at peak torque it produces the most power per unit of fuel, away from that it uses more fuel per unit of power, so although if it takes 4x the power to go 2x as fast it won't take 4x as much fuel as the engine is more efficient at higher loads, you might even be able to find the brake specific fuel consumption for your engine, but this fuel map is one of the reasons more and more gears have been added to autos to keep the engine running as close to this sweet spot as possible. 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I’ll happily accept that an engine works harder into wind at a constant road speed but the fact remains that whether it’s providing power for 30mph or 100 mph airspeed (65 +_ 35) it still produces considerable waste heat - which also consumes significant power to dissipate it to the air!
 

The widely quoted (best case…I’ve seen 70 -  88% quoted) figure of 70% loss must mean there are significant losses in both directions. The EV might lose 25%.   Therefore the proportion of the energy carried on board used to balance wind effects is greater in the case of an electric car.  
 

So I’d argue that while EVs are far more efficient per unit of energy from point of fill/charge, they are more affected by wind factors. I’m not claiming that IC cars aren’t affected by wind, John - just that it’s more significant with EV. 

[GrumpyGnome]

Interesting hypothesis. Not sure I understand but surely thus would then apply to petrol v diesel vehicles, and electric v ic aeroplanes. And trains with various motive power sources........

 

Personally , I suspect it's more to do with the physical attributes of the vehicle, than the power source.  Wonder if there is any research using identical vehicles....... doubtful as there are so many potential variables, e.g. weight, balance, drag, friction.....

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Weight is a problem for consumption, drag and tyre wear, my old Diesel Peugeot 306 used a pair of front tyres in around 20.000k, my Peugeot 407   (1700kilos)

around, 35000k but my 308sw at less than 1400kilos is now ready for new tyres at 65000 kilometres.

so what mileage are you getting with your Ev's ?.

[Don Fry]

12 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I never realised that Mr. Newton got it all wrong and that I'm capable of destroying energy.  If only I could work out how to create it!

Not Newton I think, but Kelvin. Didn’t think “entropy tends to increase in any system” had the same ring to it. 

Edited February 13 by Don Fry
Can’t spell

[Don Fry]

1 minute ago, Don Fry said:

 

Edited February 13 by Don Fry
Button trouble

[GrumpyGnome]

I think it was Mayor, Joule and Helmholz who 'created' the law of conservation of energy.....

[Erfolg]

I remember Entropy from both Heat Engines and Chemistry as the disorder that systems exhibits. Which I took to mean inefficiency of all the stages in a process, be it "now heat loss across a boundary, or a increase/decrease in pressure with a change in temperature and so on. In chemistry I was told that in reversible processes, that they could not be reversed forever, as all the molecules would not return to their exact position before the start. 

 

That to my simple mind (getting simpler each day) was why all processes have inefficiency's and Nimh etc. all fail, it is all turning to rats.

 

I guess one of Newtons laws (perhaps 2nd, but I am guessing) deals with is why energy runs downhill, hot to cold, or is it all the same thing. In some ways Newtons brilliance was stating the obvious, that no one else saw, in addition to be much cleverer than most of us can aspire to.

 

I just about grasped that the more processes or stages their are, the less overall efficiencies is to be expected. I guess that is why many fixate on one part of a system and choose to ignore other aspects.

 

[GrumpyGnome]

45 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

That to my simple mind (getting simpler each day) was why all processes have inefficiency's and Nimh etc. all fail, it is all turning to rats.

 

I guess one of Newtons laws (perhaps 2nd, but I am guessing) deals with is why energy runs downhill, hot to cold, or is it all the same thing.

Eh?

 

No idea how NiMhs got into the conversation.

 

Energy runs downhill?

 

[Tim Kearsley]

50 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

I remember Entropy from both Heat Engines and Chemistry as the disorder that systems exhibits. Which I took to mean inefficiency of all the stages in a process, be it "now heat loss across a boundary, or a increase/decrease in pressure with a change in temperature and so on. In chemistry I was told that in reversible processes, that they could not be reversed forever, as all the molecules would not return to their exact position before the start. 

 

That to my simple mind (getting simpler each day) was why all processes have inefficiency's and Nimh etc. all fail, it is all turning to rats.

 

I guess one of Newtons laws (perhaps 2nd, but I am guessing) deals with is why energy runs downhill, hot to cold, or is it all the same thing. In some ways Newtons brilliance was stating the obvious, that no one else saw, in addition to be much cleverer than most of us can aspire to.

 

I just about grasped that the more processes or stages their are, the less overall efficiencies is to be expected. I guess that is why many fixate on one part of a system and choose to ignore other aspects.

 

I think it's the second law of thermodynamics you're thinking of Erf.  The first law concerns itself with the conservation of energy and the third with the entropy of a system as it approaches absolute zero.  I don't think the laws of thermodynamics are attributable to Newton.  And what all this has to do with electric cars I'm no longer sure!

[john davidson 1]

As  a private buyer, for some time I have bought at around two to three years old when the hump of depreciation has begun to level out. Looking ahead buying an EV at that age I would like to know the state of the battery as type of use,ac or dc charging,  and being left at 100% charge is being reported as affecting life. Is a dealer going to report this? How would you find out to verify? It would greatly affect the value.

 

 

Edited February 15 by john davidson 1

[IDD15]

28 minutes ago, john davidson 1 said:

As  a private buyer, for some time I have bought at around two to three years old when the hump of depreciation has begun to level out. Looking ahead buying an EV at that age I would like to know the state of the battery as type of use,ac or dc charging,  and being left at 100% charge is being reported as affecting life. Is a dealer going to report this? How would you find out to verify? It would greatly affect the value.

 

 

You should be able to get a battery health check from the dealer, which is no more complicated than plugging in a terminal into the cars obd2 diagnostic port. This should show the voltage state of each individual cell in the battery. In addition  it should be possible to get a read out of the number of charges and type of charge carried out. Certainly this was the case with my Nissan Leaf, indeed Leaf Spy is a well known piece of software that is freely available and does this.

 

I’m not sure where this “if you charge to 100% you’ll degrade the battery” comes from because all EV batteries are managed by the battery management system such that you can never charge to 100%, or discharge it to zero. There’s always a buffer top and bottom! Strangely VW cars always advise to regularly charge to 80% and only go to 100% if needed for a longer trip, but I suspect this stems from an abundance of caution. Nissan Leafs most certainly do not have any such warnings.

 

Am just in the process of helping my son buy a s/h EV and we’ll be wanting to see a full report from the car before we part with any cash.

 

HTH

idd

[Frank Skilbeck]

10 hours ago, john davidson 1 said:

As  a private buyer, for some time I have bought at around two to three years old when the hump of depreciation has begun to level out. Looking ahead buying an EV at that age I would like to know the state of the battery as type of use,ac or dc charging,  and being left at 100% charge is being reported as affecting life. Is a dealer going to report this? How would you find out to verify? It would greatly affect the value.

 

 

At around 3 years old it will typically have 5 years left on the battery guarentee, also the batteries don't fail but they do degrade. If you take the car for a test drive, note the battery % used and miles on the test drive to get a miles per % which you can compare to the original real range will also give you a good idea of battery health. But lots of people running round in very old Leafs with reduced range but they are providing reliable cheap motoring for their needs.