Jim Hearnden 1 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 12 hours ago, john davidson 1 said: As a private buyer, for some time I have bought at around two to three years old when the hump of depreciation has begun to level out. Looking ahead buying an EV at that age I would like to know the state of the battery as type of use,ac or dc charging, and being left at 100% charge is being reported as affecting life. Is a dealer going to report this? How would you find out to verify? It would greatly affect the value. John, the depreciation curve is not the same as a ICE car as this is evolving technology, think flat screen tele's. Also the market is skewed by a lot of cars coming off lease after 2 or 3 years. This is why value has dropped. A lot of my colleagues run Company cars & they were forced to go electric, added to the BIK rules forcing them to electric. I run a 2nd generation hybrid, Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. This charges DC (Chadeemo or AC @ 3.2kW) The first Outies were 2015 & we're seeing a few get new batteries under the Mitsubishi warranty which was 8 years. The rule is SOH @ 70% or less. Charging regime doesn't seem to make a significant difference. The 20/80% charge is built in. VW (VAG) have come late to the EV party with poor technology & a mediocre car. Its also expensive, fine on lease maybe subject to the second sentence but poor for private buyers. This is why there are so many MG's around, also Kia, Hyundai etc. The current thoughts are the Chinese will lead the EV car market, like it or not. Would I buy a s/h one No. Would I buy a new one on lease/PCP etc, possibly. In the day job we get to see some of the technology, in the very near future you'll see independents train to do battery rebuilds. This is something manufacturers are not doing. Also battery recycling will become more of a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Opps,,,,https://www.midilibre.fr/2024/02/18/video-les-impressionnantes-images-de-lincendie-dans-une-usine-de-lithium-en-aveyron-population-confinee-route-bloquee-11772625.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I see your small battery fire and raise you Buncefield fuel depot… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 The French fire is a building next to houses in a small town where there 'was' 900 tons of batteries now all gone up in smoke, the French authorities say as they did for tchernobyl that there is no risk of pollution to the locals,,😡, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyinFlynn Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 22 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said: The French fire is a building next to houses in a small town where there 'was' 900 tons of batteries now all gone up in smoke, the French authorities say as they did for tchernobyl that there is no risk of pollution to the locals,,😡, You really don't want to be downwind of that! 'During a battery fire, gases are released which can pose both an explosion risk and the threat of death if inhaled. But these appear as black smoke, meaning that first responders might be unaware they are breathing toxic chemicals. These include carbon monoxide, methane, hydrogen cyanide – infamously, the main component of Zyklon B – as well as hydrogen fluoride and hydrogen chloride.' Zyklon B - think gas chambers and 'nasty' people. https://theloadstar.com/toxic-smoke-from-battery-fires-a-hidden-but-major-risk-says-tt-club/ 😡Indeed. Edited February 19 by FlyinFlynn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 No smoke or clouds are toxic in France, don't forget it is the EU,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Todays headlines is that are "is China dumping cars in Europe", by subsidies? As they are so much cheaper than cars produced in the EU. Personally I had not noticed how cheap they are. I read a few weeks back that the EU, is considering moving the 2035 manufacturing cut of back some years to a latter date. The weekend s paper stated tha Mercedes have changed their cut of date for IC vehicles. Perhaps to add fuel to the fire, the equivalent EV vehicle is normally taller than its IC equivalent. This will increase the drag, as area is part of the equation as well as Cd (which is also probably adversely affected as "fineness Ratio", dumpy bodies will normally have a poorer drag ratio. IMO, it is the price that dissuades me from EV and the range. The prices can be fiddled by the tax regime, the range is more of a problem (as I cannot get to Manchester and return, without either a charge or high stress levels. Plus my old banger, is good enough to see me out, other than legislation and "Milch Cow" taxing. I also now see the acknowledgement that standing charges must go up to pay for all the extra infrastructure required for electric power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Re drag ratio and vehicle height, they don't have to be, Tesla Model 3 is same height and drag coefficient as a BMW 3 series, but the BMW i4 is around 3 to 20mm taller, but apparently has a lower drag coefficient than the regular 4 series due to a cleaner underside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 I read erflogs post meaning, for example, an electric Mini is taller than an IC Mini.............. no idea if this is true or not. And I may have misinterpreted the intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Now this may change my mind about owning an EV. https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/roadster £34 k deposit scares me a bit but its only money O to 60 in under a second and 620 mile range!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kearsley Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 7 minutes ago, Learner said: Now this may change my mind about owning an EV. https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/roadster £34 k deposit scares me a bit but its only money O to 60 in under a second and 620 mile range!! I'm intrigued where you get the "0 to 60 in under a second" from. When I open the link you posted it says 0 - 60 in 1.9sec? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said: I'm intrigued where you get the "0 to 60 in under a second" from. When I open the link you posted it says 0 - 60 in 1.9sec? https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/musk-tesla-roadster-due-year-sub-10sec-0-60mph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kearsley Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 The other thing about the Roadster is that Elon has been promising it for years and it never seems to quite get to fruition. Since owning a Tesla, and subscribing to the Tesla Motor Club forum I've learned that there is a phenomenon generally known as "Elon time". This seems to run at a much different rate to the time experienced by us lesser mortals. He was quoted in 2019, I think it was, that Tesla cars would be fully self-driving within a year. Here we are five years later and he's being sued by UK buyers who shelled out another £6,800 on top of an already pricey car for "full self-drive" capability. What FSD, in this country, actually achieves is no more than automatic lane-keeping, lane changing and a few other bits and pieces, none of which are reliable or work well. I bought my car because I like driving, so the FSD side is of zero interest, but I'd be very peeved to have paid nearly 7 grand for not very much at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kearsley Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 5 minutes ago, Learner said: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/musk-tesla-roadster-due-year-sub-10sec-0-60mph Got you. I seem to remember from reading about it a while ago that it uses compressed air "rockets" to achieve that sort of acceleration as it's pretty nigh impossible to achieve sufficient traction from tyres to do it. I have to ask "Why?". My car is listed as doing 0 - 60 in 3.2sec and, frankly, it isn't a particularly comfortable experience. Doing it in less than a second - no thanks! But there will always be the wealthy who just look at the numbers and have to have the best, fastest, longest etc, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 2 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said: Got you. I seem to remember from reading about it a while ago that it uses compressed air "rockets" to achieve that sort of acceleration as it's pretty nigh impossible to achieve sufficient traction from tyres to do it. I have to ask "Why?". My car is listed as doing 0 - 60 in 3.2sec and, frankly, it isn't a particularly comfortable experience. Doing it in less than a second - no thanks! But there will always be the wealthy who just look at the numbers and have to have the best, fastest, longest etc, etc.... I must be getting old (bearing in mind I have raced cars for many many years) I do find it scary having cars/motorcycles capable of that sort of acceleration combined with drivers that are not so capable on the roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 The Chinese appear to be going down the route that the Japanese did 50 years ago to undercut and mortally wound most Western motor manufacturers - both four and two wheels. The offerings from MG appear to be remarkable and the very attractive estate car that I saw driving about last week ticked a lot of boxes. At around the £30K mark, a serious option for anyone looking for a family electric vehicle. Not for me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 In France, 43.000€ down payment, 2,1 s 0 à 100 km/h +400 km/h Vitesse maximale 1 000 km Autonomie Réservez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 3 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said: The other thing about the Roadster is that Elon has been promising it for years and it never seems to quite get to fruition. Since owning a Tesla, and subscribing to the Tesla Motor Club forum I've learned that there is a phenomenon generally known as "Elon time". This seems to run at a much different rate to the time experienced by us lesser mortals. He was quoted in 2019, I think it was, that Tesla cars would be fully self-driving within a year. Here we are five years later and he's being sued by UK buyers who shelled out another £6,800 on top of an already pricey car for "full self-drive" capability. What FSD, in this country, actually achieves is no more than automatic lane-keeping, lane changing and a few other bits and pieces, none of which are reliable or work well. I bought my car because I like driving, so the FSD side is of zero interest, but I'd be very peeved to have paid nearly 7 grand for not very much at all! Perhaps he should get into the drone delivery racket - promise of that seems to run in a totally different reality and time dimension 😁 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Frank, like yourself I have not measured any similar vehicles, the height and weight issues, is from media published claims. Todays news is an announcement from Aston Martin that they are delaying the introduction of their projected EV models, due to a lack of interest from potential purchasers. It could be that Aston does not have the money, or some other issue. They will continue to build and sell hybrids, I guess that investment is water under the bridge, in addition the cars maybe selling, and could they also be part of the requirement for 22% sold now being electric, with 80% by 2030. I had read that the EU expected the UK to pay a premium for EVs so that EU car production could shift "S" curve premium cost away from the EU market. As for China, in the past it was not the Japanese that were the issue, it was the poor quality, workers attitudes, lack of basic items and price of the UK cars that all but destroyed our car industry. How British Leyland went from approx 50% of the UK market to the position that transpired is criminal, for all involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john davidson 1 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 5 hours ago, Learner said: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/musk-tesla-roadster-due-year-sub-10sec-0-60mph Mention of a ROCKET THRUSTER PACK in the info no less, to put it under one second to 60, price is $250,000 or similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kearsley Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 47 minutes ago, john davidson 1 said: Mention of a ROCKET THRUSTER PACK in the info no less, to put it under one second to 60, price is $250,000 or similar? It's just getting silly isn't it? If you do the maths, getting to 60mph in 1 sec is about 2.7g. Why would you want to expose yourself to that unless in a race, on a track? Such "cars" have no place on public roads. As I said earlier in the thread though, any time-lines quoted by Musk have no credibility so I wouldn't be holding my breath for this one! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Tim Kearsley said: It's just getting silly isn't it? If you do the maths, getting to 60mph in 1 sec is about 2.7g. Why would you want to expose yourself to that unless in a race, on a track? Such "cars" have no place on public roads. As I said earlier in the thread though, any time-lines quoted by Musk have no credibility so I wouldn't be holding my breath for this one! Tesla model s plaid will do 0 to 100mph and back to 0 again in 8.2 seconds, just what you need for getting the kids to school on time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Seems standard in our 20 mph zone. No speed traps here, main road and coast road yes, rat run definitely, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 2 hours ago, Erfolg said: I had read that the EU expected the UK to pay a premium for EVs so that EU car production could shift "S" curve premium cost away from the EU market. As for China, in the past it was not the Japanese that were the issue, it was the poor quality, workers attitudes, lack of basic items and price of the UK cars that all but destroyed our car industry. How British Leyland went from approx 50% of the UK market to the position that transpired is criminal, for all involved. The Brexit trade deal to allow tarrif free trade between the EU and UK stipulated that cars made in UK or EU hadn't to contain more than 10% foreign parts, so EV batteries make up a large part of the cost which are currently imported from China so the tarrif will apply. Nissan are building a battery factory in the UK, but BMW won't start manufacture of the electric Mini in UK until 2026/27, maybe due to this tariff? UK car manufacturing in the 197s/80s was starved of investment, the Marina being a classic case of accountants telling engineers to design a car around the existing cheapest components, most small BL cars were still using the old A series engine with 4 speed gearbox in the sump while the rest of the world had moved on to 5 speed with a separate gearbox etc. Look at what John Bloor did with Triumph motorcycles with the correct investment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Frank, their was certainly a lack of investment, as an owner of a Allegro and a TR7 the build quality was low, as were the trims, many being extras. This was certainly not the case of Japanese cars. As for my dads Vauxhalls and Avenger, and Metro, not a lot favourable can be said. I also remember the Triumph co-operative, before Bloom came along. Then good modern design, quality build reliable, value for money. Yet others squandered reputation post war, as you hint, kick start, magneto (poor electrical components) and so on. You could write books on the subject, ah, many have, multifaceted failure,(incl a tax regime that was unfavourable) so much wrong. Lets hope we do better with electric cars and the remaining IC markets. Cost to the purchasers is crucial, along with other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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