The State of Play

[leccyflyer]

Hi Richard - sorry for arriving late to the party, but do you have a list of kits that you currently have available and is the idea here that you are looking for other suggestions for new kits for the future?

[Jon H]

Posted by Bruce Collinson on 10/05/2020 22:25:31:

ozen posts before the wise old heads jump in to exhort the OP NOT to dream of Spits until the apprenticeship is complete. It might be urban myth, although I hardly ever see one in the air at my club. The attraction of Richard's product is that it gives every appearance of being very flyable whilst still being of a more manageable size, and running on sensible electric power. I too like IC 4 strokes but find it significantly quicker, easier and cleaner to have a short flying session if I only need LiPos with me.

Ought we to have a straw poll?

BTC

Dont get me wrong, warbirds aint for beginners. Thats a given for sure and until you are at least fully versed in low wingers then its a non starter. That said, i have seen many proficient pilots not go for a warbird because they have heard too many horror stories and think its only for 'god tier' pilots and that is simply not the case.

Size, you gotta take the wing off a 50 inch and an 80 inch so there is little saving in hassle in my view. Storage/transport is a common argument but i can fit 3 80 inch warbirds in a vw golf if i have to so you dont need an 18 wheeler to cart them about. Admittedly storing a surf board size wing in a house or flat can be an issue but a garage is no bother.

Speed..well i guess it depends how you define it. On the field its probably a bit faster, but its the 5 hours faffing about waiting for lipo's to charge that does my head in. With IC i can zap it for a half hour on the charger to top up the rx and its off to the races :D

Cleaner, ok you got me, but only just. One wipe with a towel isnt too traumatic

My vote for something unusual is this...

Regianne RE2005

[Ron Gray]

That’s just another Spit Jon, with an ME nose and a hump!

[Martin_K]

Engines
Two of the flying sites available to me do not allow IC engines. These are local authority rules, not a club choice.

Do you think such restrictions will be removed in future? I doubt it.

A new design optimised for IC power is already removing potential UK sales.

[Tim Flyer]

That RE 2005 looks good . I will have a look at the La 7 thread too Ron. 😊

[Jon H]

Posted by Martin_K on 11/05/2020 08:28:53:

A new design optimised for IC power is already removing potential UK sales.

Why? Before you fit the engine there is no difference between the two.

a flat plate at the front to bolt the spinny bit to, a hatch somewhere for access to its energy store, and a cooling duct somewhere else for getting the hot air out.

Both models require the same structure so im not quite sure i follow your logic.

[Jon H]

Posted by Ron Gray on 11/05/2020 07:18:13:

That’s just another Spit Jon, with an ME nose and a hump!

Hardly, its all italian and stuff

[Ron Gray]

Italian and stuff it maybe, but it still looks likes a Spit with a 109 nose

@Martin - I don't see a problem if the 'plane could be flown with either, a lot of ARTFs come with options for either. Making the design to suit only one of these options would be a sales restriction!

Edited By Ron Gray on 11/05/2020 09:03:10

[RICHARD WILLS]

Ok , so one thing seems clear , There is a two tier approach here , One faction sees the benefits and of economy with the 4S electric size in terms of the price of hardware ,including cheap retracts and batteries & chargers ,

However Jon has pointed out that the equivalent 4 stroke (ASP /SC ) is now hard to come buy and an OS is a crazy price , Which means that IC flyers are going larger ,

This may not be a problem . Our La7 was designed in two sizes , so It may be best to simply suggest that if it works for one faction , then perhaps the same design at a different size would work just as well with the other .

The perception of foam veneer can be off putting to the modern chap who has been brought up on wooden ARTFs . It also will not post abroad , as mentioned earlier (too much volume ) . However the facts are somewhat different .

I picked up a 55" foam veneered Spitfire wing that had been stored in my loft for three years with a view to making myself another Tempest . It weighed 6.2oz ! I could not build a built up wing at that weight . Wings like kept like that can lose and oz in weight , maturing like good wine ?

For me , the foam/,veneer verses , laser argument comes down to simplicity . If we look at a P51 wing with the plain flaps and straight lines , it would be quick, efficient an accurate to make a foam veneer wings and just slice off the flaps and ailerons, Having said that , a laser cut built up wing would have the U/C plates built in with no ambiguity in relation to angles .

As stated , the world does see "laser cut " as a hallmark. But from a builders point of view , a smooth build flow is important ,

[RICHARD WILLS]

Terrible spelling and grammer in my last post .

Please accept my apppolologiiesss

[Richard Ashworth]

In the veneered vs built up wing debate, I have both one piece veneered and one piece built up wings. My understanding was that veneered wings are ‘all’ one piece but that build up wings over about 160cm move to two piece for convenience of transporting.

Am I right in assuming that having a design in 140cm and 180cm spans would need wings of individual internal construction, even if both were built up, one piece, wood?

Richard A

[Jon H]

Posted by Richard Ashworth on 11/05/2020 09:34:24:

In the veneered vs built up wing debate, I have both one piece veneered and one piece built up wings. My understanding was that veneered wings are ‘all’ one piece but that build up wings over about 160cm move to two piece for convenience of transporting.

Am I right in assuming that having a design in 140cm and 180cm spans would need wings of individual internal construction, even if both were built up, one piece, wood?

Richard A

I have 8 wings up to 90 inch at the moment and they are all once piece. I do have one 76 inch two piece wing and its taped together as its easier to deal with like that.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Richard , you can make foam wings separate in the same way as built up , My 104" Lancaster as wings that slide onto 1" metal tubes either side of the fuselage , I think larger models work well in foam veneer as balsa starts to get expensive as you go "Grande" . I do have a mind to build a similar sized B17 which with the wonderful simplicity of Boeings design could be pre built in large sections of foam veneer . Two wings , front and rear fuz , plus all tail surfaces . It would be light and relatively cheap . Plus , they fly like giant trainers. (and , shhhhhh, with electric motors , very reliable ) Tin hat going on now

[Richard Ashworth]

Brain now in gear! My initial planes were all ARTF, keep box size to a minimum = fuz length, so split wings!

[Ron Gray]

A B17? >100"? you kept that one quiet! That would be nice!!!!!!!!

[andrew exton]

Posted by Ron Gray on 11/05/2020 11:45:21:

A B17? >100"? you kept that one quiet! That would be nice!!!!!!!!

would be very nice

andy

[Ron Gray]

You've opened Pandora's box now Richard!

[Jon H]

Posted by Ron Gray on 11/05/2020 11:45:21:

A B17? >100"? you kept that one quiet! That would be nice!!!!!!!!

It would be a nightmare for me as I sold all my 30 4 strokes years ago and i would have to buy more if a big B17 showed up!

To be fair though my participation here is limited to chat as i have absolutely no room for more models...apart from the two i am currently eyeing up.

I have sold 3 in recent months and have at least 2 more i need to move to make space and free up the cash

[Chris Walby]

Building aside if my veneer fun fighter wing is anything to go by they are very tough and knock resistant.

If you can do a two size model then that's the best of both worlds, but as you say small IC is having a hard time with supply and access to flying fields getting harder all the time (noise constraints).

I think the smaller model will appeal more due to the electric set up cost.

Perhaps the approach is to build the kit with all the bits and bobs usually included, then if people want to detail they can. There will always be a group that can/want to scratch build everything and they can go that route if they wish (including built up wings).

Any closer on picking a new subject?

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 11/05/2020 08:41:20:

Posted by Martin_K on 11/05/2020 08:28:53:

 

A new design optimised for IC power is already removing potential UK sales.

Why? Before you fit the engine there is no difference between the two.

a flat plate at the front to bolt the spinny bit to, a hatch somewhere for access to its energy store, and a cooling duct somewhere else for getting the hot air out.

Both models require the same structure so im not quite sure i follow your logic.

 

Don't models designed for fitting a large reciprocating engine require significantly more substantial front ends, to handle the increased vibration compared to a similarly rated electric set up? That's just from vibration, before getting on to the loads imparted by starting an engine.

Edited By leccyflyer on 11/05/2020 12:35:28

[Richard Harris]

Richard,

From my experience with my models then looking at the amount of views for each design on this forum is a good reflection on the feedback/photos I get of completed models. This along with feedback from Coolwind it is clear there is still a steady flow of parts being asked for, more so for the simpler to construct models.

So it does surprise me that your ME 110 hasn't kept you busy producing kits with all those views, maybe its the complexity, the price or finishing costs etc

I am in agreement with the few that Spitfires, Cubs, Mustangs, Moths, 109s etc etc have been done to death and would only appeal to the minority (kit built). Most of these are pretty much covered with the ARTF manufacturers at reasonable prices.

An observation I have made is that cheap, quick built models are starting to become more popular (more obvious on social media), this could be down to the lock down we are all experiencing but a lot of the builds are ARTF'ers having their first go at a kit building.

By this I'm talking of kits that are sub £60, can be built quickly, cheap to fit out and are generally something a bit different and fun to fly.

Lots of avenues to explore

 

Rich

 

 

Edited By Richard Harris on 11/05/2020 13:06:40

[martin collins 1]

For me kits around £100/£120 are much easier to justify, i`m building a 1/4 scale Cambrian Cassutt racer and it ticks ALL the boxes for me, nearly completed it in 7 days of good building, foam wings to speed it all up, Sheet tail surfaces with dummy ribs on, built up fuz for the traditional aliphatic resin build, decent size at 45" (looks bigger as the wing is quite wide) and has been made for i.c or electric. Always electric for me with the odd petrol on larger planes, not keen on glow due to the mess.

100" B17 with foam wings, sheet tail, fin and flaps would get a vote from me, i had a 12 foot one years ago (not buit by me, from the Jan Hermkens plan). Bought set up on i.c, i converted it to electric, despite weighing 30lbs it flew like a big trainer. Lots of great colour schemes to choose from, i would buy a kit in that set up if priced right............

[Jon H]

Posted by leccyflyer on 11/05/2020 12:34:06:

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 11/05/2020 08:41:20:

Posted by Martin_K on 11/05/2020 08:28:53:

A new design optimised for IC power is already removing potential UK sales.

Why? Before you fit the engine there is no difference between the two.

a flat plate at the front to bolt the spinny bit to, a hatch somewhere for access to its energy store, and a cooling duct somewhere else for getting the hot air out.

Both models require the same structure so im not quite sure i follow your logic.

Don't models designed for fitting a large reciprocating engine require significantly more substantial front ends, to handle the increased vibration compared to a similarly rated electric set up? That's just from vibration, before getting on to the loads imparted by starting an engine.

Edited By leccyflyer on 11/05/2020 12:35:28

Not in the context of the models being discussed here.

If you have a slab sided fuselage (like a wot4 or acrowot) with bottom block and top deck etc then its going to be man enough for both. The same would be true for a laser cut structure with stringers and sheeting.

Guys at my club built a variety of Richards models some time back including 3 yaks. One was electric, one was 60 4 stroke, and one was 40 2 stroke using the same kit so its a bit of a non issue.

[Martyn K]

A really interesting thread.

I am game for almost any design that appeals to me with a couple of provisos

1. Max weight 5kg

2. The scale outline must be accurate. Curves where curves are meant to be etc.

3. There needs to be several options for colour schemes readily available. No all black night fighters thank you

Why? Well I am rather keen on supporting the BMFA Scale Tech committee initiative to reintroduce low key competitions for the average scale modeller. I know (for various reasons) that this does not appeal to all, but if you are going to spend eek number of hours building then (the longer bit) finishing a scale model than you should have the opportunity to show it off in like minded company. No hanger queens permitted.

The tiffy appeals to me - mainly because there is plenty of room to hide an inverted engine in the cowl and the TN is a right sized option. So a 60 sized model or E equivalent which typically is about 60 to 65" span and has all the right attributes for storage and transport. It doesn't have to be a warbird but my feeling is that warbirds are more likely to sell rather a civilian - simply because of the glamour of a warbird.

You can add Stuka to the list as well - no retracts. Another cat to herd..

Give me a laser cut built up wing any day.. Nice accurately cut slots, lightning holes properly placed and crisply cut formers. Die cutters go blunt and cnc can tear the wood.

Martyn

[Ron Gray]

Posted by Martyn K on 11/05/2020 15:39:25:

So a 60 sized model or E equivalent which typically is about 60 to 65" span and has all the right attributes for storage and transport. It doesn't have to be a warbird but my feeling is that warbirds are more likely to sell rather a civilian - simply because of the glamour of a warbird.

I do agree that a warbird tends to grab the attention / imagination more than civvy types and would probably result in more sales. Apart from the B17 (which seems to have attracted a few positive responses) the BP Defiant seems to be high up the list too.