Laser Engines development.

[Mike Mc]

A 50 to 60cc Radial is something that I would be interested in. Looking forward to seeing the prototype test runs.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Mike Mc

[Jon H]

Food for thought. IF anyone has access to the right facilities to help there is nothing stopping me from putting a radial together at the weekend. 

 

A running prototype on the boss's desk, videos on youtube and a list of people throwing money at their computer screens? its a compelling case. 

 

While it is tragic that such measures need to be taken it is an option. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Jon - Laser Engines

[kevin b]

6 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Food for thought. IF anyone has access to the right facilities to help there is nothing stopping me from putting a radial together at the weekend. 

 

A running prototype on the boss's desk, videos on youtube and a list of people throwing money at their computer screens? its a compelling case. 

 

While it is tragic that such measures need to be taken it is an option. 

Unfortunately that is the world we live in these days Jon.

 

It is probably true to say that the main reason for the reduced sales of smaller 4 strokes is down to electrification and the fact that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by a considerable amount. Particularly with scale models.

[Mike Mc]

Any news on gasoline engines. That market is really taking off in the US. That would be a way to really increase the company's income. 

 

There are also complaints about the web store. Put in a shopping cart system would also help sales.

 

Just trying to help keep the company financially healthy for years to come.

 

[Jon H]

Petrol development stalled due to the first batch of test engines seeing use by only 2 or 3 of the 10+ customers who bought them. With feedback from only the guys using them we had to shelve the project and wait. We are getting back around to it slowly but the engines will have to be very expensive due to their complexity so i doubt they will be super popular. 

 

A web shop would be a great idea but the website is broken. There are other issues with a web shop and i would be completely swamped within hours. 

[kevin b]

The only advantage I can see of petrol engines is that they run cleaner than glow engines.

That and the fact that they are currently being producing in large quantities at the sizes suitable for large model aeroplanes.

It will not be too long before these manufacturers start to disappear. Mainly due to electric motors becoming more and more prevailing in the mid-sized power tool market. 

Eventually "small" ic engines will fall into the hobby market category and companies producing low volume quality products will thrive when the high volume producers have long since lost interest. 

However that will also have an impact on price, but as I keep telling people. The days of "cheap" are now over and prices will revert to a level that they were before the days of the "baby boomers"

My advice is to order your Laser engines now whilst they are "cheap as chips"

Unfortunately most of them now are too big for the size of models I can fly at our (small) field.

So now Jon is going to be under pressure from me to to make smaller engines (40 - 50 size 4 stroke please).

[Chris Walby]

These are my views so feel free to rip them to bits!

• Laser engines makes little or no profit for its parent company, just look around at all of the machine tooling in the factory and you would realise that there is no chance that sort of investment would be repaid from just engine sales.
• The US is a massive market and the scale of production works for them, but it won't work in the UK. The road to mass production normally involves cost/quality cutting in an ever tighting spiral and the market is just not there
• Gutted that the 70 and possibly the 80 will go, but the trend is to go electric at these sizes and the economics are in favour of the electrons - no point flogging a dead horse, more on to where there is a market
• Engine development has been covered by Jon and its really disappointing that we (the punters) bought petrol and didn't give him the feedback he deserved, but on the flip side the flat twins have been a great success (I really like mine as it ticks all the boxes).
• The in-lines are looking good and although there are few models that will just accept it as it is people like Ron are showing us that really its not that difficult to fit them
• IMO mass production will continue to head towards electric with models becoming almost impossible to modify to IC due to strength issues, but all is not lost as there are a few designers/manufacturers that produce some great looking laser cut kits. They have the ability to design the airframe around the engine requirements which hopefully will have little impact on total cost.

As for the website and shop, I prefer to talk to Jon, work out what I really need and then put the plan in place.

 

Of course if a radial was to be produced I am sure I could find a model to put it into 😉

[Don Fry]

Just one more point, why does Laser think their engine ain’t with the same money as a Saito, or an OS. 

[Mike Mc]

2 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Just one more point, why does Laser think their engine ain’t with the same money as a Saito, or an OS. 

I agree. As long as Laser engines are high quality, I don't see any reason for them to less expensive than Saito or OS.  I'm sure that the 70 and 80 will still sell at a "profitable" price. Those smaller Laser engines are perfect for sport flyers and probably get more flight time than the big ones. 

[Jon H]

The price thing is complicated, but on the petrol side i wouldnt pay £600 for a 180 petrol despite how well it runs in my stampe, and i designed the thing. I would buy a 180 glow and many years worth of fuel instead. Its a better value proposition to me. But, am i viewing the viability of the petrol engine in the market based upon my own preference for the simplicity of glow? Perhaps. Perhaps i am too worried about protecting customers from what i consider bad value choices when i should be selling water to the fish. The problem is, i dont want to mislead people so its a bit of a balance, one i am yet to find in many respects. 

 

Beyond that, we were looking today at our 2007 pricing and doing the inflation maths. Long story short, a 70 should be 300 quid and we only recently put it up to 250. we have also been looking at the spares as things like carbs are way too cheap. There are so many parts in a carb, almost as many as the rest of the engine! Prices are going to have to go up. Nothing more we can do. 

 

Long term though the 70 is in the crosshairs. Sadly its not cost effective to produce with our current approach. If we had 10 guys building engines at a furious rate and they were selling just as fast it would be another story. 

 

Just for reference, this is this list of parts in one carb and any special processes (assuming i remembered them all):

 

Intake stub

Intake stub O ring x2

Body (sent for anodizing) 

Spray bar

Fuel inlet nipple

Barrel (hardened)

Barrel Spring (custom made)

Barrel Screw (hardened and chemi blacked)

Main Needle jet

Main Needle jet O ring

Main Needle (chemi blacked)

Main Needle Spring  (these are now £2 just in bare cost to us)

Main needle spring washer (chemi blacked)

Main needle O ring

Main needle extension grub screw

Slow run needle (chemi blacked) 

Slow run needle O ring x2

Throttle arm

Throttle arm pinch bolt

Throttle arm pinch bolt nut

 

All that lot and 5-10 minutes to assemble for £45? 

 

A petrol carb/fuel system has all that lot plus:

Mount flange

Mount flange insulator block

Body mount screws

Body mount screw insulator x2

Choke plate

Choke plate travel limit screws x2

Choke plate retaining bolt

Choke plate retaining bolt spring washer

Fuel pump body

fuel pump cover plate (chemi blacked)

fuel pump bearing block

nipples x3

Fuel pump drive gear (hardened)

Fuel pump drive gear shaft (hardened)

Fuel pump idler gear (hardened)

Fuel pump idler gear shaft (hardened)

Fuel pipe

Fuel filter

Pressure regulator body

Pressure regulator end cap

Pressure regulator ball

Pressure regulator ball spring (custom made) 

 

For a twin you can double the carbs and then add:

Extra Throttle arm

Throttle arm pinch bolt

Throttle arm pinch bolt nut

Carb link rod stud

Carb link rod clevis x2

Carb link rod clevis nut x2

 

FT engines also get:

Fuel pipe 

Fuel T

 

It gets worse as there are two sizes of glow carb and the petrol, so that is two different intake stubs, 3 different bodies, and a total of 5 different spray bars as there are reverse angle spray bars used on the twins. 

 

So when i am complaining i am missing a part, this is partly why. 

 

 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Yes you are missing one of the most important parts in your carbs, the hole in the middle to let the fuel mix through.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Paul De Tourtoulon
s

[Don Fry]

Now I’m feeling guilty. I always thought it’s that black thing, that you turn the twisty bit at the top occasionally to get it running nicely, and it needs an O ring once every other blue moon. 

Now I don’t do petrol. Load of faff. Much the same reasons as you pointed out.

But Jon, Socialist values of fair play aside, and selling sand to an Arab. Why cheaper than a Saito glow plug motor, why cheaper than an OS glow plug motor. 

Runs on cheaper fuel, better lawn dart, keeping repairs down, down side plane designers tend to design round a mid carb engine, providing a bit of work for the builder putting a Laser in. 
Why cheaper, a respectable capitalist, would just price a few quid under to keep obviously competitive, and be kind and respectful, to the captive fish.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

One of your engines up for sale over here, the owner has no idea can you tell from the stamping on the mounting lug which one it is please Jon ?.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Ok too late sold ,,,,

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Yes you are missing one of the most important parts in your carbs, the hole in the middle to let the fuel mix through.

 

Was this supposed to be a joke? If so i think we are crossing the international punch line as i missed it. 

 

Anyway the photo you posted is a 2010 120 assembled by a bloke called Dave (RIP) and in dire need of a service to sort out its rusty innards. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jon - Laser Engines

[Jon H]

Don, its not so much that i dont think our engines are worth a fair price and match our competition for quality etc. Its more that prices for our competition, OS especially, are insane. They want £425 for a 70 and i cant see any justification for that. if my understanding of the OS sales figures are anything to go by, the punters agree. We can justify being cheaper than our competition on the one hand as we sell direct to customers and cut out at least one distributor and shipping all the way from Japan, so £300 for our 70? Perhaps it is not so unreasonable. 

 

The other thorny issue which impacts my view of the prices is I cant afford to buy them. With my wages, if i was a customer working somewhere else for the same money i couldnt afford to buy a laser engine, at least not more than a few. Its an absolute disgrace, but that is the reality. 

 

Financially, i would be better off working at tesco stacking the shelves and putting engines prices up will not help me in the slightest. All it will do is put the product further out of reach. 

 

Perhaps the engines are not the only product being under valued and 2 staff members voted with their feet in the last 6 months. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jon - Laser Engines

[Chris Walby]

Cost of the engine is a factor, but for me there are more important considerations to consider.

 

I wanted to move up in model size, picked a Seagull Hurricane and installed a Laser 180 in it. Long story cut short but IMO the airframe was a total dog as it managed less than a dozen flights before biting once too hard. My point is I have the engine, a load of electrics and a very expensive bitter experience with a Seagull product. I want to have as many plus's in my favour and Laser engines provide that with easy to tune (if you put the tank in the right place) and reliable.

 

The Focke Moskito (twin) was another experience induced by my inability to build light + picking an unknown design, but the point again was one underlying thought the engines are reliable. While the model was giving me a ride of my life and I had my hands full of control and trimming, engine power was not a factor. Pretty gutted it took two years to build and again I have all the parts/engines to build another, but is it really worth all that time investment? 

 

My point is that the engines forms less than 50% of the total cost of a typical model (which ever way you obtain it) and there is little or no comeback to the designer/ model manufacturer if it does not perform as expected. 

 

IMO we are in for a massive shock when model, balsa and electronic parts costs fully filter through to the punter. 

 

Jon, keep up the good work, they cost what the supply chain dictates and you think is reasonable.  

[alan p]

Jon has put his finger on the issue (with apologies to shelf stackers) stackers work to the nearest pallet size, engineers to microns as well as in Jon case designing testing and marketing the product. 

Anyone with engineering expertise for the last 40years has been under valued and denigrated. The majority of who work for small firms are indeed paid less than supermarket stackers. Yet without their skills the mass produced products would not have appeared on the shelves. In the past Britain was made great by engineers not stackers. 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Thanks Jon for the 120 info, yes the 'black hole ' was meant to be a joke, obviously the passing of the Queen has touched you too ( Joke N° 2 )

[Don Fry]

OK Jon, I’ll shut up. I accept I am fortunate, and don’t have money worries. Don’t give up the day job Paul. Spike you ain’t.

 

 

[J D 8]

It amazes me how much money is spent on Tat today, stuff like cheap clothes, shoes and furnishings that are little used before ending up at the dump [ resomething centre.]  Others will purchase well made costly items that will last a long time with some care but none is given.

[Don Fry]

My very early 75, bought 25 years ago as a non runner, (timing out after a bearing change by previous owner, for £40) still trundles about in my DVII, thank you very much. Same bearings and all.

[Martin McIntosh]

Chris, just as an aside, what size was your Hurri and what did it weigh? I built a TN 72" spit from laser cut parts which were just heavy junk and it turned out at 18 lbs, originally for a 30cc petrol which was too large to fit in so got a laser 180 which powered it fine but landings could be a nightmare. Built another the way I would do it with a loss of 4 1/4 lbs with the same gear etc. 180 too powerful so fitted a 155.

[Chris Walby]

Martin, I have messaged you as its off topic.

[Jon H]

Bit of a question for everyone. 

 

Next year represents the 40th anniversary of Laser engines and i am mulling over ideas for some anniversary edition products.

 

So my question is simple really. Is anyone interested in this? do you have any ideas? does anyone really care and are anniversary products a waste of time?

 

Let me know what you think