toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 OK ..... I'm in the shed and getting ready to look at the fail safe system. before I do ..... some pictures of the control surfaces as they stand at the moment after having switched off at the weekend. So first the servo positions Rudder, elevator and nose wheel positions on the two extreme left servos are neutral. as are the control surfaces of the elevator, and rudder as below... and the ailerons ..... and the throttle in the fully closed position as below ..... with the throttle servos at one of its extremes as seen in the servos shot above. now ..... I'm going to attach the wings and aileron servos and get ready to carry out the failsafe test ..... I'll be back soon. toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 OK ..... I'm in the shed and getting ready to look at the fail safe system. before I do ..... some pictures of the control surfaces as they stand at the moment after having switched off at the weekend. So first the servo positions Rudder, elevator and nose wheel positions on the two extreme left servos are neutral. as are the control surfaces of the elevator, and rudder as below... and the ailerons ..... and the throttle in the fully closed position as below ..... with the throttle servos at one of its extremes as seen in the servos shot above. now ..... I'm going to attach the wings and aileron servos and get ready to carry out the failsafe test ..... I'll be back soon. toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 Apologies for the above double post ..... dunno what happened there. Anyway, I fired up the receiver switch and the transmitter ....... none of the control surfaces or throttle moved from the above position of aileron, elevator, rudder at neutral position ..... throttle fully closed. I pushed the throttle stick to full power .... which opened the throttle ..... then I shut down the transmitter and ... the throttle went to fully closed again and the aileron, rudder and elevator all stayed neutral as before. So it looks like in the event of a fail situation .... all surfaces to neutral and the throttle to fully closed. Does that make sense ????????? cheers toto. I'll wait 10 minutes before starting to take things apart in case any further test is required ..... otherwise ..... must get started. cheers toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) Throttle shouldn't be fully closed as engine will stop, should be slightly open to let it idle. Edited September 12, 2023 by Learner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 The fact it's an ic engine notwithstanding...... better to get into the habit of removing the prop in all cases. Better than forgetting on a leccy plane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zflyer Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 As Learner states, the throttle should be at idle when you have the stick down, use the throttle cut option of your tx to fully close the throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 OK ..... well we march on. I was a bit worried about taking the Arising Star out of commission when my instructor had other plans but If i ever needed justification to do what I have just done ..... here it is and ..... much worse than what I thought. In no particular order ..... 😀 the battery compartment showing foam padding all around. and the underneath. it worth stating that it does actually hold the fuel tank very steady and in place. The fire wall coming apart from the fuselage ....... and again ..... and again ..... the underside of the fuselage with an exposed and very ropy previous repair ..... totally inadequate ...... so I've taken the whole section out ....... no half measures this time. from above ...... and again ..... the long shot. ..... NOW ..... here is the shocker ...... can you see it yet ........ this is not it but just another shot of the firewall strengthener splitting and coming away ..... BUT .... surely you see the absolute frightener of a revelation now .... yes ... well done to the eagle eyed ..... two engine mounting bolts completely missing ...... AND ...... a third one on its way ..... the fourth by the way ....... was slack. so its out ..... and ..... the poor blighter sitting there shaking on the bench ...... I've prescribed it a nice dose of vallium whilst it considers its future. The plans are afoot for the revamp of " The Arising Star take 2 Frankensteins Monster " I have this ...... some sheet ply ..... which should be fine for the under structure but before I do ......... I'll repair this whilst I have access. I'll take the support out, clean up the area from the original epoxy resin and replace with new ..... both sides as there is enough space in the engine bay and also the same on the other side of the inside of the engine bay. The underside of the fuselage will wait for now as I want as much space as possible for the insertion of tie wraps etc when I reinstall the tank. The radio gear will change completely. I intend to move the receiver to the rear point of the servo bay area where it is in the open and away from the battery installation. this will now be wrapped in foam ( as before ) and installed under the servo tray. I should not need instant access to this as I can recharge the battery from the charging port on the external switch plate as before. it does work a treat. i will probably need to remove the servo's to install the battery as it will be a tight squeeze. the only other option would have been to move the battery toward the rear and leave the RX more or less where it is in order to keep distance between the two. I will not be starting the reinstallation tonight so please feel free to comment. I will be tackling some of this tomorrow. now ...... my mate John Smith is calling me ....... I hope I am following a better path this time. by the way .... the bolts for the engine mount .... as well as going into captive nuts will be fitted with Nylock nuts to the rear of these as well. that was a shockeroony. toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Par for the course, ARTF aircraft are what they are. Anyway I am pleased to see a totally cynical and cautious mindset developing. Remember in the fix, don’t worry about aesthetics, strong is good. It’s a biro for doing a job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outrunner Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Toto. It will be better than new when you've finished the repairs! You might want to keep the battery where it is, you might have balance problems if you move it rearwards. When I was teaching my son to fly he had a brand new Thunder Tiger 40 engine that kept going dead stick, good for practicing landings but very frustrating so we converted it t electric and never looked back, no more dead sticks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 Outrunner , no worries, I'll keep the battery in the same general area. never thought about C of G issues. Don, I couldn't care about aesthetics, I just want it to fly with a bit of consistency about it ...... reliable ( good ) consistency that is. 😄 cheers toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Burton Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 3 hours ago, toto said: So it looks like in the event of a fail situation .... all surfaces to neutral and the throttle to fully closed. Did you set the failsafe positions yourself ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) Hi Bob, No I did not set them. I was not really even aware of them to be honest. I'd heard passing comments etc with reference to the term but has no involvement in setting them up. On many occasions when things are being adjusted / amended to sort issues etc and in general setting up, when other folks are doing this for you , it's all about " getting it done " and therefor any explanation or involvement in setting these things up and the theory / requirement behind them is ignored in the name of getting the model in the air in the quickest time. Not a grumble as such as the folks behind doing the " fix " are donating their time. You feel reluctant to slow the process down to ask for any explanation and just accept it as a necessary adjustment that's needed ...... and you'll catch up on the theory behind it later ..... in your own time. Anyway ..... I suppose due to the issues that are now arising ..... I'm throwing myself in on a sink or swim basis to get myself up to speed in order to be able to take more responsibility myself and make myself less reliant on others to provide the answers. I can't criticise others decisions if I haven't made the effort to understand the issue myself and try to be in a position to make my own decisions ............ that's starting now no matter how much its slows my race to the skies down. I've had enough. Toto Edited September 12, 2023 by toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 If when the failsafe operated the throttle ended up fully closed did you check failsafe operation with the engine running? Indeed, did you do a failsafe check before every flying session? For electric motors I usually set the failsafe to stop the motor but for IC I set it at a smidge above idle. The reason for not shutting down an IC engine is you cannot restart it in the air. (OK some petrol engines have starter motors fitted but not many ) So, if after going into failsafe you regain control, with an IC engine running you can fly the aircraft back to the patch. If the engine has stopped you may not be so lucky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Lewis 3 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) If you have not set failsafe to anything particular then it is likely that the default failsafe will be to hold last position, in other words the controls simply remain where they were when the signal is lost. You can quite simply verify this, just hold over to full any control surface you like (or more than one) and turn off the TX at the same time and see what happens to the control surfaces. Edited September 12, 2023 by Philip Lewis 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 Hi Philip, That exercise was carried out and posted on several posts ago. The summary of that was that the throttle closed down and all other control surfaces returned to a neutral position. Cheers Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 Just to add a little more commentary from a hindsight perspective and in a way a slightly perverted context, I'm almost glad that some of these issues have come about and forced me into taking the bull by the horns. In looking into these various issues ( some of which have been unearthed since my last postings and still to be detailed ) it is certainly an eye opener and a learning experience. I suspect many of the issues ( for which the answers are yet to be determined ) are down to a hastily / shoddily prepared model .... by myself. The general layout of the electrics being one ... ie receiver, battery etc. And another being the push rod installation for the throttle which I have just discovered / realised as being less then optimal ( a photo of which will come tomorrow so be sure to tune in ). Some of the issues may also be down to the lack of good maintainence and after flight checks.... loose and missing engine mounting bolts .... that's a bad one and even possibly the lack of cleaning ...... Again, freshly identified but I'll fill you in on that one tomorrow.... I haven't prepared photo's for that one yet and don't have the heart to start explaining it at this point. I think the purpose / moral behind the above is that in delving in and having a closer look, it's amazing how many issues .... major and minor have built up over a short period of time. A lot of these are visually obvious if you take the time to actually look properly and are avoidable. Others .... possibly the set up issues are maybe as a result of setting the overall software controls in a piece meal fashion as opposed to going through these settings as a continuous and logical process from start to finish. That is how I am going to try and approach the recreation of the new " model file " in the transmitter going forward. Let's see if a mixture of repairs and reprogramming works. I can only try. Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Absolutely the right approach Toto. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stainforth Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 14 hours ago, toto said: Hi Kim, That's something that I am currently looking at. My RX is mounted on the side fuselage about 2 to 3 inches from the battery. I'll post up some pictures later today as I need to go out to the shed to get my TX to check the fail safe settings. It could be that the way things are laid out inside the fuselage have maybe not been thought through well enough. From memory, I mounted the RX as shown in the destructions ( I think ) again..... monkey see .... monkey do. I would have thought that the many sets of eyes that have seen this though would have had words of advice is if it was not the best. I have been thinking of doing a complete strip out of the interior electrical set up and reorganising it with a bit more thought going into it. It would do no harm. Taking my time from start to finish instead of potentially making changes and building one mess on top of another in a rush to get it airborne. Believe it or not ( I'd prefer you did though ) I am all in favour of forgoing flying time in order to get the set up right. I'm not sure if all that is being done at the moment is a load of I'll conceived knee jerk reactions. Blaming everything and anything with no logical thought going into it. Get the model set up right .... ie .... equipment layout. Test the functioning of all the equipment ..... servo's ...... engine ...... control surfaces. Then ..... go through the transmitter settings ..... functions aligned to correct throws / switches ...... throttle cur of ..... fail safe ....... expo settings ......... buddy system aligned etc etc. Make sure all these things are happy .... then ...... maiden u der these conditions ...... trim where necessary ...... test on buddy system. The latest opinion is to blame the TX and RX. Ok fine ...... but on what basis. These do seem to be talking to each other. We have occurrences of control loss where things go a bit hairy but cant explain a set of variables to identify exactly under what circumstances they occur. ( as far as I am concerned). My mentor is very committed and is tireless in looking for a solution and I appreciate that totally but I am not sure we have the right way forward. We are now talking of using one of his receivers ( maybe futaba cant remember ) and two of his transmitters to try any see if this helps. I'm just at a loss. The intention is to send oth my NX6 and NX 8 back to the supplier to ask them to test them. I really dont like the idea of sending them back .... potential for them going missing ...... how long will I be without my transmitters etc. If I knew they were the issue .... not so bad .... but I'm not convinced. Sorry for the whinge. Toto I am surprised that your club and instructor haven't thoroughly checked out the plane and its gear before taking to the air. Then, when things go wrong it is almost always pilot error. I very much doubt whether your NX6 and NX8 need to be sent back to the supplier for testing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Spektrum RX auto set the failsafe. It sets to wherever the sticks are when it was set. From memory, it happens when it loses it link to the transmitter, first time after it is bound. That is why, if you reverse the throttle, the transmitter warns, rebind, as your failsafe is now full throttle. Fine for power aircraft. Gliders should be set with some spoiler deployed, as they are more likely to be lifted in stray thermal, ans the CAA does not want us out of our cage. Also I set a bit of rudder, then it then lands locally. I once lost a Junior 60, of all things, and it covered 10 miles, landed in a farmyard, unharmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 12 hours ago, toto said: Apologies for the above double post ..... dunno what happened there. Anyway, I fired up the receiver switch and the transmitter ....... none of the control surfaces or throttle moved from the above position of aileron, elevator, rudder at neutral position ..... throttle fully closed. I pushed the throttle stick to full power .... which opened the throttle ..... then I shut down the transmitter and ... the throttle went to fully closed again and the aileron, rudder and elevator all stayed neutral as before. So it looks like in the event of a fail situation .... all surfaces to neutral and the throttle to fully closed. Does that make sense ????????? cheers toto. I'll wait 10 minutes before starting to take things apart in case any further test is required ..... otherwise ..... must get started. cheers toto @toto I'd say not quite proven. I read that on some Spekky rx's, the default failsafe was throttle closed, all other controls to 'hold', i.e. last command. As in your test, all controls were neutral, except throttle, you may simply have proven this. What you need is failsafe to close the throttle, and put all controls at neutral. To prove this, you need controls NOT at neutral when you switch off the transmitter as a test..... push throttle up, hold sticks in corners, switch off...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) Sorry, meant to say that there are three vital parts of learning to fly safely: 1. Pre-flight checks - range, failsafe, op number, all essential parts attached (even experienced fliers have been known to forget to tighten wing bolts for example), all controls working correctly (i.e. in the right direction), etc. 2. Flying safely - at a comfortable height and distance, preferably with a stated aim, e.g. "we're going to practice left hand circuits, maintaining constant height in the turns" 3. Post-flight checks - everything still safely attached, any damage identified, etc. (others will chip in with more 🙂) You'll soon fall into a routine....... Edited September 13, 2023 by GrumpyGnome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Gray Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 And the third part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 23 hours ago, Outrunner said: I do a failsafe check after my range check at the start of every session. Club rule as well as BMFA recommendation. That’s fine for i.c. but for electric it’s important to do the failsafe check before the range check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Gray Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 54 minutes ago, Ron Gray said: And the third part? I jumped in too soon as it’s now appeared 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 pbkab - problem between keyboard and brain.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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