What's up with my Lipos?

[leccyflyer]

Concur with the excellence of the ISDT chargers. I was having some issues with my pair of Turnigy Reaktor 300W chargers - first one, then the other was charging the first cell in a pack to just over 4.2v, on a balance charge, then trashed a fairly new pack by charging it to well over 4.2v - the pack never really recovered from that, despite several balance cycles.  I wasn't happy using the Reaktors then, so replaced it with an ISTD Q8 charger, which I've been so impressed with that I was thinking of getting a second one, to replace my Graupner Ultramat 14, as a second charger.

Edited May 26, 2023 by leccyflyer

[paul devereux]

On 26/05/2023 at 17:24, leccyflyer said:

Concur with the excellence of the ISDT chargers. I was having some issues with my pair of Turnigy Reaktor 300W chargers - first one, then the other was charging the first cell in a pack to just over 4.2v, on a balance charge, then trashed a fairly new pack by charging it to well over 4.2v - the pack never really recovered from that, despite several balance cycles.  I wasn't happy using the Reaktors then, so replaced it with an ISTD Q8 charger, which I've been so impressed with that I was thinking of getting a second one, to replace my Graupner Ultramat 14, as a second charger.

I've tried reading the technical information people have posted (and thanks to everyone who has).

But- what in practical terms, does a more expensive charger offer over a basic balance charger? 

I get it that it might give you more information about the individual cells than three red or green lights, but what benefit does that have?

For example, I plug a lipo into an ImaxB3, it charges each cell and the lights turn green in turn until there are three greens. What would an ImaxB6 do differently, and how does it actually prolong the life of the battery? It might show one cell is a bit dodgy because it is charging slowly or doesn't have as high capacity as the other two-but what can you do about it that will improve the life of the battery? (I'm sorry if this is too simplistic a question).

[Nigel R]

With respect, its already been answered - you'll be able to use (and store) the batteries effectively without damaging them. You will have to get to grips with some tech to take advantage though there is no getting away from that.

 

Or as an alternative, buy double the quantity of lipos, fly each one for half the time, and otherwise carry on as you are now. You will still be a little in the dark about how the batteries are doing but at least a safe short flight leaves you much less open to damaging the kit. 

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, paul devereux said:

I've tried reading the technical information people have posted (and thanks to everyone who has).

But- what in practical terms, does a more expensive charger offer over a basic balance charger? 

I get it that it might give you more information about the individual cells than three red or green lights, but what benefit does that have?

For example, I plug a lipo into an ImaxB3, it charges each cell and the lights turn green in turn until there are three greens. What would an ImaxB6 do differently, and how does it actually prolong the life of the battery? It might show one cell is a bit dodgy because it is charging slowly or doesn't have as high capacity as the other two-but what can you do about it that will improve the life of the battery? (I'm sorry if this is too simplistic a question).

Imagine it like having a car with or without a petrol gauge.

 

Okay, you can fill her up before a trip,  you know the tank is full and you can count on getting to your first few destinations with enough petrol still in the tank. However if you are travelling to a large variety of destinations, sometimes in a different order, at some point you are going to run out of petrol, between petrol stations if you don't have a means of measuring how much fuel you are using and how much you have left.

 

The consequences are disproportionate to the minimal effort and expense in looking at the petrol gauge on a normal car. With a petrol gauge fitted you can make informed choices on when you need to fill up, rather than it being in about three to four days by guesstimating without a gauge.  It really is as basic as that.

 

It would appear that you've damaged your lipos by pushing them too hard and not making use of the information that was readily available to preserve them in good order - a better charger will actually charge the batteries more efficiently in the first place, at an optimal rate for the battery size and, more importantly, it will provide you with the information to use your batteries more efficiently, safely and to their best potential.

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, paul devereux said:

I've tried reading the technical information people have posted (and thanks to everyone who has).

But- what in practical terms, does a more expensive charger offer over a basic balance charger? 

I get it that it might give you more information about the individual cells than three red or green lights, but what benefit does that have?

For example, I plug a lipo into an ImaxB3, it charges each cell and the lights turn green in turn until there are three greens. What would an ImaxB6 do differently, and how does it actually prolong the life of the battery? It might show one cell is a bit dodgy because it is charging slowly or doesn't have as high capacity as the other two-but what can you do about it that will improve the life of the battery? (I'm sorry if this is too simplistic a question).

1. You can charge batteries of different capacities and voltages at their optimum rate, helping to maintain their health in the long term.
2. You can save masses of time in preparation because you will be able to charge multiple packs at a time at the optimal 1C rate meaning an average charge will take 40-45 mins, mot 3hrs+.
3. You  can capture charge and discharge data on individual packs to understand how they are performing over time to help make future purchase decisions.
4. Rather than relying on a set of lights which tell you pretty much nothing, you know what the voltages of individual cells are at all times during a charge. This enables you to stop charging if there is an issue that could damage the pack and/or cause a serious fire.

Final key point that I think you have misunderstood… We are not suggesting you get another charger because it can somehow help bring damaged batteries back from the dead; no lipo charger can do that. What we are saying is that through a combination of a) understanding how your batteries work, b) treating them in line with best practices for charging and discharging and c) tracking how they are performing over time you will get more cycle life from your packs, and it will be safer too. 
 

Edited May 28, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

One final reflection… Your iMax B3 seems to be available from various sources for between £6-15. That means it probably cost the original manufacturer somewhere between £0.50 and £1.50 to make.

 

 

I know equating cost and price can be a mistake, especially for high price items, but at these kind of prices you do have to wonder about the quality of manufacturing and (for example) how accurately it is measuring the cell voltages during charging. Yes charge rates are low, but the result of an overcharge can still be catastrophic, and with no display you have no data to be able to tell. Is it really worth taking the chance given the potential consequences of a lipo fire? 
 

 

[leccyflyer]

On 26/05/2023 at 08:34, steve too said:

 

Ignore the percentages. What were the cell voltages 15 minutes after the flight? 

I don't recall having seen the answer to this question yet?

[MattyB]

36 minutes ago, MattyB said:

I know equating cost and price can be a mistake…

Apologies, that should have read “cost and quality”.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by MattyB

[Learner]

42 minutes ago, MattyB said:

One final reflection… Your iMax B3 seems to be available from various sources for between £6-15. That means it probably cost the original manufacturer somewhere between £0.50 and £1.50 to make.

 

 

I know equating cost and price can be a mistake, especially for high price items, but at these kind of prices you do have to wonder about the quality of manufacturing and (for example) how accurately it is measuring the cell voltages during charging. Yes charge rates are low, but the result of an overcharge can still be catastrophic, and with no display you have no data to be able to tell. Is it really worth taking the chance given the potential consequences of a lipo fire? 
 

 

No wonder I'm flying i.c again😊 reading all this bumf electric could seem such a faff and dangerous too!!

Edited May 28, 2023 by Learner
Change

[Ron Gray]

3 minutes ago, Learner said:

electric is such a faff and dangerous too

It’s only the user that makes it so! As long as you follow the basic guidelines it is safe, a bit like IC, keep your digits away from the prop when adjusting the needles, ditto when removing glow drivers, use a chicken stick not your fingers to flip the prop, when leaning over the prop to restrain model when using a starter make sure loose clothing is clear of prop. Ah! I/C is such a faff and dangerous too!

 

BTW I fly both I/C and electric!

[leccyflyer]

To continue Ron's point, it's all down to the user.  For the IC glow flyer in the olden days an analogy would be using a fully charged 2v dry cell and short lead as a glow energiser and then being baffled that you kept blowing 1.5v plugs. The smallest bit of readily available knowledge would come from other users and by simply putting a longer set of leads on the glow clip, all would work fine.

[Learner]

27 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

It’s only the user that makes it so! As long as you follow the basic guidelines it is safe, a bit like IC, keep your digits away from the prop when adjusting the needles, ditto when removing glow drivers, use a chicken stick not your fingers to flip the prop, when leaning over the prop to restrain model when using a starter make sure loose clothing is clear of prop. Ah! I/C is such a faff and dangerous too!

 

BTW I fly both I/C and electric!

Went to fly recently took 8 x 6cell, 8 x 5cell, 8 x 3cell fully charged,

Flew them all and charged a couple of 3 cell pack to finish the day.

Then had to check and storage charge or charge fully if flying  next day

Thats a Faff!! 

So now take an ic plane with me and less batteries👍

Edited May 28, 2023 by Learner
Spelling

[PatMc]

21 minutes ago, Learner said:

Went to fly recently took 8 x 6cell, 8 x 5cell, 8 x 3cell fully charged,

Flew them all and charged a couple of 3 cell pack to finish the day.

Then had to check and storage charge or charge fully if flying  next day

Thats a Faff!! 

So now take an ic plane with me and less batteries👍

Well good for you. Why don't you start a new thread promoting ic over electric flight and leave this thread to folk who are prepared to offer constructive advice to the OP. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

The difference in Ic and electric Ron is the noise of the Ic is a warning to you, electric is a silent killer,,,

[Learner]

1 hour ago, PatMc said:

Well good for you. Why don't you start a new thread promoting ic over electric flight and leave this thread to folk who are prepared to offer constructive advice to the OP. 

No thanks My batteries are charged now so I'm off flying, electric and i.c I'll leave the constructive advice to the experts.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Learner
Spelling again

[Caveman]

Just out of interest, this is the B3AC charger supplied by Banggood with a 250 racing quad.

 

 

It’s mains powered, but note that is has fixed outputs, 1.5A for 2S and 1A for 3S.
 

It reads Stand By : NO, Charging : Red and Full: Light goes out. Actually on stand by the two outer lights are green and the centre is green. Charging shows red and fully charged shows green light.

 

That doesn’t say much for the quality and attention that’s gone into its manufacture, hence the only time it has been used was yesterday just to see how it performed using a 1300mAh 3S battery. It did OK but it would be useless, and potentially dangerous, for small batteries and very slow for larger ones.

 

A bit useless junk that will now go back in the cupboard!
 

GDB

 

[GrumpyGnome]

2 hours ago, Learner said:

Went to fly recently took 8 x 6cell, 8 x 5cell, 8 x 3cell fully charged,

Flew them all and charged a couple of 3 cell pack to finish the day.

Then had to check and storage charge or charge fully if flying  next day

Thats a Faff!! 

So now take an ic plane with me and less batteries👍

My Ruckus has a LiPo and a NiMh; my Valiant hss a LiPo and LiFe; my P51 has a NiMh and a LiFe; my P47 had 2xNimh and a LiPo; my starter has a LiPo; my glow sticks also have batteries. That's to fly my ic planes.

 

Neither ic or electric is faff-free and all need prep. Part of tge hobby. 

 

Sadly, it appears knocking others taste ('bants' no doubt) is also part of it.

[Outrunner]

11 hours ago, paul devereux said:

I've tried reading the technical information people have posted (and thanks to everyone who has).

But- what in practical terms, does a more expensive charger offer over a basic balance charger? 

I get it that it might give you more information about the individual cells than three red or green lights, but what benefit does that have?

For example, I plug a lipo into an ImaxB3, it charges each cell and the lights turn green in turn until there are three greens. What would an ImaxB6 do differently, and how does it actually prolong the life of the battery? It might show one cell is a bit dodgy because it is charging slowly or doesn't have as high capacity as the other two-but what can you do about it that will improve the life of the battery? (I'm sorry if this is too simplistic a question).

Paul. When I started dabbling in electric flight about 25 years ago the best advice I got was that I will never regret buying a decent charger. The second bit of advice was get a Watt meter so you know what is going on.

Both proved to be very true and both devices have enabled me to get the best out of electric flight.

The charger has been updated a couple of times but I still the same Watt meter after all these years.

 

[paul devereux]

You're all right, thanks for the info. I suppose if a £8 charger was any good, we'd all use one. I just didn't want to spend more money. In my defence, it is my having to adjust from flying a e/p glider to a plane that needs power all the time. A glider just needs a few a seconds power on launch and a few top-ups. But a power plane needs continuous power so it makes sense to look after the Lipos.

So maybe this will be okay? A decent charger, costing about £50. Four new Lipos, and shorter flights, perhaps 7 minutes each, checking I've got 30% capacity left after each flight? 

[Dale Bradly]

One other advantage to a decent charger (i.e. any 4 button or upwards) that hasn't been mentioned:

When your laptop batt/power supply is suspect and you want to charge the batt.

When you want to play with your phone batt

When the missus leaves the car lights on and flattens the battery

When you need a power supply to run a small dc system for fault finding/ testing

When you forget your power tool charger but really need to recharge your drill batt today

When you want to play foam cutting

And the list goes on. 

A very handy bit of kit i can't live without!

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

And may I add to Dale's list if you are a builder you can use a heavy one to hold down your wing balsa skinning

and also as a square to lean the fin on to keep it at 90°,,,

[leccyflyer]

4 hours ago, paul devereux said:

You're all right, thanks for the info. I suppose if a £8 charger was any good, we'd all use one. I just didn't want to spend more money. In my defence, it is my having to adjust from flying a e/p glider to a plane that needs power all the time. A glider just needs a few a seconds power on launch and a few top-ups. But a power plane needs continuous power so it makes sense to look after the Lipos.

So maybe this will be okay? A decent charger, costing about £50. Four new Lipos, and shorter flights, perhaps 7 minutes each, checking I've got 30% capacity left after each flight? 

Checking that you have at least 3.7v/cell after each flight. That's the single most important piece of information for monitoring the health of your lipos.

[Ron Gray]

On 28/05/2023 at 11:33, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

The difference in Ic and electric Ron is the noise of the Ic is a warning to you, electric is a silent killer,,,

Not wishing to prolong this off topic conversation but just got to say that comment is a load of spherical objects.

[GrumpyGnome]

Only time my leccy models are anywhere near silent is when the prop is stationary....

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

1 hour ago, Ron Gray said:

Not wishing to prolong this off topic conversation but just got to say that comment is a load of spherical objects.

tell that to two of our club members, one that has had stitches on his fingers and the other that has a chopped up shirt and a bruised stomach  when they plugged their batteries in, and the third that I was holding his electric pylon racer when it went off full chat when he turned his radio on 🤢