toto Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just as it says on the tin ......... what constitutes a " Park Flyer " ? There has been a debate smoking away on a other thread of mine " first taste of the sky " which looks like it could be a loooooooooong and sloooooow burner. I don't want to kill it because I think it deserves it's own space. The answer I thi k is a mishmash of weight, power, size, speed ......... oh ......... and a smattering of common sense. What can make it harder ..... and has done in the case ......... is misleading advertisements by retailers ........ and possibly the will of individuals to push the boundaries to maybe justify their wish to fly clearly unsuitable models in very public spaces. I will be offering up a couple of pictures later ( can't make the shed at the moment ) in order to " suggest " some boundaries for this classification of aero models. This will be after dinner time ( as I don't work well on an empty stomach ) Please feel free to chip in ...... and remember ........ play nice ....... Toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/918.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 (edited) Thanks for that Leccy, I think I nailed the description rather well and with a smattering of common sense. Cheers Toto Edited January 22 by toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Personally I'd consider an electric powered model weighing less than 16oz would fit the bill for the UK rather better than the 32oz suggested by the AMA. Since our current regulations for registration weigh in with a split at 250g, below which Operator registration is not required, you could argue that would give a workable definition of what constitutes a park flyer - namely a model that is able to be operated safely, at low risk, in a UK park - therefore likely to be in moderate proximity to others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 Admittedly, the 250g figure has been the figure that I would tend to refer to but as usual ...... the very vague wording which only stipulates this as the threshold from which you need an Operators licence does not help. As you say though ...... a good starting point. Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I believe the term originated in the USA in 2008 when the AMA (their equivalent of the BMFA) launched a specific 'Park Pilot' class of Membership. This is where the definition that Leccy provided came from. The 'Park Pilots' Membership is cheaper but has limitations and reduced benefits compared to full adult AMA Membership. In response to this Horizon Hobby introduced their 'Parkzone' range of models and the term spread around the world, although I am not aware of any official definition outside of the USA. When I last flew in the States I was given a copy of their magazine at a model meet at Old Rheinbeck airfield: Park Pilot Summer 2013.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Under 250 gram yes... Are your volunteering to be a "target" for a charity event GG ? Pilot pays £5 per hit, £50 if blood seen, monies raised for sir ambulance...only joking, but I did find your comment about not minding being hit by a toy/park flier rather.......odd. Yes park fliers, Snowdonia national park is quite big ! I do not know SNP policy on model flying, I will have a look, buy of its not mentioned, I will let " gelert" sleep in peace. A clear consise and easy to understand, by everyone, definition of a toy RC aircraft and 'park fly" RC aircraft would be good, for UK application. There probably is, bmfa/caa, but I have yet to find it. There is a web address mentioned in bumpf printed off in library on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Day Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Under 250g UMX type thing flown within very close range, or go by what it says on the tin re Park flyer/zone etc within say the area of a football pitch and most likely electric so as not to scare grannies with IC noises I had some Parkzone/HH Piper Archers 950mm wing, 2s scale speed, better on 3s of course. Ultra micro Mosquito still in box and the 1200mm Mosquito also described as parkzone I recall and you wouldnt want that on your head. Plus the law of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 39 minutes ago, John Lee said: I believe the term originated in the USA in 2008 when the AMA (their equivalent of the BMFA) launched a specific 'Park Pilot' class of Membership. This is where the definition that Leccy provided came from. The 'Park Pilots' Membership is cheaper but has limitations and reduced benefits compared to full adult AMA Membership. In response to this Horizon Hobby introduced their 'Parkzone' range of models and the term spread around the world, although I am not aware of any official definition outside of the USA. When I last flew in the States I was given a copy of their magazine at a model meet at Old Rheinbeck airfield: Park Pilot Summer 2013.pdf 32.27 MB · 4 downloads Hi John - the term parkflyer certainly predates that 2008 launch of the AMA Park Pilot designation, by quite a few years. It was certainly in use in the early noughties and for example there was a specific forum on the Ezone before that became RC Groups and even before the Great Server Crash of 2001. I think that the brand name Parkzone might also predate that 2008 AMA initiative. Edited January 22 by leccyflyer Clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Harris Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 The biggest model I've seen flying in a public park recently was a four-engine Short S.26 flying boat. A model of great grace and beauty. Must have been about 70- 80 inch span. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, Frank Day said: Under 250g UMX type thing flown within very close range, or go by what it says on the tin re Park flyer/zone etc within say the area of a football pitch and most likely electric so as not to scare grannies with IC noises I had some Parkzone/HH Piper Archers 950mm wing, 2s scale speed, better on 3s of course. Ultra micro Mosquito still in box and the 1200mm Mosquito also described as parkzone I recall and you wouldnt want that on your head. Plus the law of course. Again - Parkzone was a brand name used by Horizon Hobby, and the packaging also sporadically contained the name Hobbyzone. As you say, that cannot be taken as being indicative of suitability to fly in a park - it's a marketing ploy, though the models are magnificent - sadly missed, but not necessarily suitable to be flown in a park, especially a UK park. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just checked and the Parkzone Spitfire II - the original PZ Spitfire with the brushed motor - came out in late 2006 and was the third of those type of models that Parkzone had produced, following on from the original P-51 and FW190, so all predating the 2008 AMA Park Pilot campaign, I'd also have to say that I'd consider them to be a bit big for a UK parkflyer, though as GG has already pointed out things are a little different in the USA. I'd be more than happy to fly my wee Parkzone UMX Mosquito - mentioned earlier - in a UK park, but I would most definitely not consider flying my 1200mm Parkzone Mosquito in a public park. As another data point, in order to take a full BMFA Fixed wing "A" Test, I believe that your model needs to be over 1kg in weight. For me, that would essentially exclude models over 1kg (2.2lbs) from being considered as parkflyers in this country. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, toto said: Just as it says on the tin ......... what constitutes a " Park Flyer " ? "Park Flyer" is a title not a description. Without a definition of "Park" it's impossible know what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 "It's Air Vice Marshal Park, Sir!" 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Hyde park, regents park, play school kids park..... As usual, a clear definition is needed, by the powers that be, in the UK. An American definition is ok for USA but remember they drive on the wrong side of the road. Toto did say "thrash it out' ? Maybe an acceptable definition could be established here and presented to the powers that be ? Or would that be tempting fate too much, they would only come back with an unsuitable impractical useless definition, or a complete ban of model flying in/on/over a public place. That the latter would certainly be the easiest, Well are virtually at that point at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 It's a discussion on an online forum. It's not an intention to present the BMFA or CAA with a definition of what constitutes a parkflyer. A clear definition on what constitutes a park is not needed by the powers that be. To embark on seeking out such an enterprise would seriously be wanting to hit the self-destruct button. Attempting to elevate this discussion to the point of hysteria isn't helping. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 There are plenty of clubs in this country that are based in parks/fly on common ground, I would imagine all slope sites are open to the public so does it matter what a park flyer is. Surely the importance is risk assessment, good flying protocol and common sense. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Sorry toto, you did mention rage rather than thrash it out.... I wonder what the purpose of the two recent "call for input" surveys by the caa were about ? To get a feel of what interested parties think, so Caa can judge what would be acceptable by interested parties....perhaps ? A reaction. Reactive response.... Might a proactive response be better ? Let's face it Caa can do what the hell they like. A "maybe " opening word with a closing question mark means ? Anybody ? "Or would that be tempting fate too much .....' etc. Offers a possibility of what may happen, possibly ? The caa "Call for input" document was "talked about", "debated", a discussion on a forum which got quite heated iiRc. A clear definition is needed in my view to allow a proper judgement to be made as to site suitabiliy etc. Etc. Etc.... Or just wait for local bye laws to catch up. Bye laws can be worded so as not to ban model flying as such, but to ban the use of "radio equipment" meaning ghetto blasters/boomboxes etc.. In reality a multi edged sword, just what officialdom wants... As to being " hysterical"... Anyways, opinions.......what Constitutes s parkfly.... What constitutes a safe area to fly a "park fly "... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 A park flyer is something flown in a Park, hopefully within the law and by laws. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I think slope sites are a completely different animal and IMO the term parkflyer doesn't refer to slope soarers in particular - yes, even if they are in a National Park. It's more about a a particular class of model, rather than where it is actually flown. Parkflyers are flown at lots of clubs which are certainly not in public parks, so the "park" part doesn;t necessariy require that the class of model is flown in a public park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Walby Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 oh here we go again with a completely unanswerable question that will no doubt run and run. Another thread I will block as its a pointless debate. Off to sniff some burnt castor and worry about long leads on my ESC (not). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 (edited) Hi Chris ..... blame me. I started this as I could see it burning on in my thread. Instinctively knew it needed it's own space for that reason. However ..... I still think it's a worthwhile question as it is confusing. You are correct .... there is no definitive answer but this thread could at least give folks a consensus as to what a reasonable definition accepted by the masses is. So far .... in my opinion .... one of the key considerations has been identified by Learner ....... risk assessment. ..... the begining of the application of common sense. I will as mentioned post up a couple of images that appear in my mind when I hear the words park flyer but even those don't mitigate the one factor with all likely models that we would deem acceptable to fly in a public park ....... with the exception of a paper plane or a small hand launched glider ..... The use of a live prop. No matter how small or light the model may be ....... if you get hit full frontal in the face with anything with a live spinning prop ........ your next set of shiny model instructions may be getting read in braille. So it's all about what's reasonable, a pinch of common sense and a risk assessment on the day. Toto Edited January 22 by toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Park Flyer, advertising term. Park, come in all shapes and sizes. Rest, personal opinions. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Rich Griff said: Maybe an acceptable definition could be established here and presented to the powers that be ? What for, simply not needed. Personal opinion coming up! Any model aircraft you fly in a park, safely and lawfully can be considered a park flyer. What can be flown safely and lawfully will of course change depending on the park. Doesn't need any more thought than that. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 And ..... as promised .... some images of what I would consider a park flyer in your average public recreational space. first up ..... a little sport cub .... I'd need to rake out the paperwork for this for official weights etc. and ........ next up something a little bigger ....... The Eflite UMX Turbo timber Evolution. for a sense of scale etc ..... and there we go. One common denominator ..... moving ... powered .... props ... the biggest risk to safety for all concerned. The latter of these ... the EVO .... has safe and self leveling and all that stuff. So ... for the less experienced pilot you could argue a certain amount of care taken. It can only help. If you were hit directly in the back with either of these going at full pelt .... I suspect the equivalent of a tennis ball hitting you in the back with reasonable force. I think we would survive that ok. however, it either hits you directly in the face ....... a different story. many many variables make the question unanswerable generically. The actual space... its useage .... the model .... the attitude of the pilot .... it goes on and on ..... stick to the laws bye laws ..... always risk assess your situation environment and add a bit of common sense. I've had my say 😁 happy now. toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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