Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Don't get me wrong - I'm a fully "bilingual" engineer! All of my technical education was in metric so I'm happy working in that, But, especially in the earlier days of my career, a lot of stuff was in imperial so I learnt to work in that as well. What I'm on about here is how the change-over between those states seems to have been almost sleath like! Recently I have been looking to buy a set of imperial sized hex drivers - I have a metric set but the model I'm working on (a Hangar 9 job) is fitted out entirely with imperial size screws. To my surprise I've actually found it very difficult to get them. Yes all model traders seem to have metric sets - often a choice of three or four! Some even have imperial - but usually a choice of only one set and that a very small (typically 4 piece) set with the same limited range of sizes - which of course Murphy's Law ditates are not the sizes I want! General tool factors? The same picture. Only from American retailers can I see a selection of sets of imperial size hex drivers. Now I've solved the problem - the RC cars lads obviously buy more imperial size stuff than we do and so their specialist retaillers have some stock - but even there is not extensive. What has ceratinly surprised me how, almost imperceptively, the situation has changed over the last 20 years or so. Anyone else experienced this? BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/10/2012 11:23:27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 **LINK** SHAME on you BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I definitely prefer working in metric sizing now - especially compared to the US system of 2-56, 4-40 etc - which to me is utterly meaningless. As you say, Hangar 9, E-Flite and all the US-based manufacturers insist on remaining apart from the rest of the world when it comes to sizing. Seems almost quaint now but very irritating! Having needed the odd non-metric size hex key and for other bits and pieces, I've always found Modelfixings well up to the mark Can't recommend them highly enough... Pete Ah, Wingman, you beat me to it! Edited By Pete B on 11/10/2012 11:30:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 BEB Yes the Americans treat metric as 'foreign' although not all their sizes are the same as true Imperial. You might try the Pound shops. Cheap and nasty but frequently have both types of Hex Keys. The smaller the size the better the Imperial stuff is, not surprising really as they were usually created as 'best for purpose' rather than some arbitary fraction of a metre. The classic example of this is the Whitworth thread. The worlds first (in 1841) standard thread specifically created for use in cast iron and is still used. The Imperial thread range does however get rather complex. BSF, BSC, BSW, UNC, UNF, BA, BSP, BSPT. NPT, NPTF - that I know of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I am in agreement with Pete, metric sizing has a lot of merit now. The main issue through my working life has been the multiplicity of sizing and standards, which have continued to date with lower frequency. I still use, and like BA, screw sizing and SWG wire. As for BSW, BSF, where spanner nomenclature does not match the diameter and UNC, UNF, AN system (which can still encountered), they are best consigned to the bin in the EU (or Europe). Many of us still think in terms of imperial sizing though, a cigarette paper about 0.001 or a peice of card about 0.020 inches. Bigger sizes I do carry rough equivalence in my mind, 1" = 25mm 1 foot = 305mm or 1 yard a short 1m . I really like the metric system for fluids etc 1kg = 1 lt of water, a cubic meter =1000kg = 1 tonne, shear magic. Edited By Erfolg on 11/10/2012 11:58:05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I totally agree with Pete. The metric system is so simple to use. What a daft system with inches multiplied by 12 to give a foot, multiplied by 3 to give a yard, multiplied by 1760 to give a mile. Just don't get me started on weights ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Posted by Wingman on 11/10/2012 11:23:56: **LINK** SHAME on you BEB Wingman, I did look at Modelfixings - but that just bears out my point. Only a selection of 5, no 1/8" size (how bizaire!). As I said, yes some model shops and tool shops stock a small selction - but not a proper set across the range of sizes. BEB PS yes I prefer metric as well - but sometime you have to work with what you have! And I'm finding surprising how difficult it's become to fully support imperial working in the UK now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engine Doctor Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Yes we are moving into the metric age inch by inch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 LOL! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn K Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hi BEB I have just done a re-scale of Curare for a .25. Its a nightmare working in mixed units, it doesn't help that I can work happily in metric or imperial but I have problems visualising metric squares and cubes.. 1000mm^3 It also doesn't help when transposing from one application using imperial to a second application working in metric to draw wing ribs... I look forward to the day when we are 100% metric for everything, sadly I don't think it will be in my lifetime - especially with the intransigence of the western colonies (I don't mean Wales) to adopt the metric system for daily use. And to answer the question - yes there is a shortage of imperial tools nowadays. However you may get better luck with a company that specialises in motorcycle restoration tools Martyn Edited By Martyn K on 11/10/2012 12:45:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 This is a recurring theme, with arguments for and against Imperial/Metric. I learned both at school, and used both in my career, but I prefer Imperial as it is how I envisage lengths and volumes. It wasn't, and still isn't, a 'daft' system. Even Napoleon Bonaparte, who was responsible for its adoption by much of Europe, described the millimetre as too small, too accurate, and too precise to be of any use. The Romans used base 12 because it had practical advantages in being cleanly divisible by 3 and 4, unlike metric, and the French still commonly use douzaine (dozen) and demi-douzaine (half-dozen) as measures. Canada made a huge drive to metricate, decades ago, but still finds that most of its people, young and old, use Imperial measures and have quietly dropped any compulsion to use only metric. As Imperial is widely used in the aircraft industry, even in Europe, it will be with us for a long time to come. Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/10/2012 14:20:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I bought a set of imperial keys from Halfords, but even they don't fit half of the US derived screws. A Dremel grinding wheel usually fixes that problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybeard Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 If Napoleon had asked me I would have suggested the duodecimal system as more suitable; but unfortunately he didn’t, so you are stuck with the base ten stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I do believe that a lot of the so called benefits of imperial measures are a little spurious, in that only a limited number of attributes are considered. I can argue that 10 can be conveniently be divided 5 and by shifting the decimal point I can easily divide and multiply by 10 etc. I just remember that manyimperial calculations often had to be divided or multiplied by 12,36, 1760 just to change units. Most conversions in the imperial system also exhibited complex relationships. The metric system does in general exhibit logical relationships and values carefully selected for convenience of all users. Where as the imperial system was often arbitrary, or for the convenience of a narrow group of users or grew out of custom and practise. Although the Metric system is not perfect it has a lot going for it. Perhaps more than the binary, hexadecimal, imperial and other systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 When I started my current employment in 1997, we were using metric screws and threaded parts then but our small bore pipes connecting to the outside world (we make sampling systems) were always ¼”. We made the switch to 6mm mid 1999 I think and by that time most of our customers expected metric. So I think (US excluded) the rest of the world has been metric for quite some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Payne Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 BEB, try B&Q, that is where I got my set from. They had both imperial and metric and ball ended drivers too. Good luck. Cheers, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 BEB Modelfixings have all sorts including these:- 3.2 (1/8" 63 1 MF-HK-32 £0.50 or yellow handle folder Inch 0.05, 1/16, 5/64, 3/32, 7/64, 1/8, 9/64, 5/32, 3/16" MF-BFK-20 £5.95 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hi Wingman - these are allen keys - not hex drivers! I already have at least two sets of imperial and metric allen keys - but I'm looking for hex drivers. BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/10/2012 22:10:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncebounce crunch Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 A hex driver is a mad woman behind the wheel, and there is Imperial, metric and the 2dollar shop sizes for tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would say BA sizes are superior to Metric in the sizes we use! But of course BA is really metric...........see The Model Engineers Workshop Manual by George Thomas ( wonderful book ) for a discussion on this . Where can we buy tiny metric open end spanners such as for M3 nuts etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Sets of ring/open ended spanners ranging from 4mm to 11mm are usually available at the cheap and cheerful tool stalls at shows and other market locations. They cover from standard 2mm nuts upwards (3mm uses 5.5mm AF) and most of them seem to be of reasonabe quality. Talking of cheap and cheerful, avoid the suggestion near the top of the thread about buying cheap hex keys like the plague! Nothing is more likely to spoil your day - once they've slipped a few times they'll start to open up the fastener socket making removal a real pain even with a decent key! It's well worth investing in a set of each from a professional tool dealer. They won't be ridiculously expensive even for the ball ended unes which I find very useful - an example. or standard ones are even cheaper. Edited By Martin Harris on 12/10/2012 12:18:11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 A classic case of giving 25.4mm & taking 0.9144m I think.... Like BEB I am happy working in both systems but I find I tend to work in metric for smaller measurements but imperial for larger dimensions....when marking out & such like then mm are so much easier but if someone tells me a model has a wingspan of 1600mm that foxes me...I can't visulise that at all.....convert it to 63 inches & I'm much happier.... Similarly if I'm doing rough measurements in the garden I can say yeah thats about 10 feet....I wouldn't know what 3m looks like.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Its about 10 feet Steve. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi Guys I find that if I remember that 10cm=4 inches; 30cm=1 foot, & 3m=10 feet, all approx, but near enough, then I can calculate just about anything. ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Metric by Sleath? I know BEB admitted to being bilingual but what's 'Sleath' ???? Is it Stealth said in a Liverpool accent? Or the latest Japanese Sleath Frighter plane ? That reminds me about the Japanese executive who told me he took a fright on British Airways but he didnt like flied food....... ( true story! ) Just a sort of Spoonerism I suppose. Edited By kc on 12/10/2012 19:04:05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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