Methods of attaining an A certificate

[stuey]

Hi chaps. I have been flying for 30+ years on and off since I were a lad. I am a member of a club which is not BMFA affiliated, so we are judged on our flying skills etc by other members. I have been thinking of going for an A so I can fly at my Dads club possibly. I have spoken to a well known flying school where I can be tested after a couple of hours tuition. What other avenues are available to get tested, without having to join another club for instance?

[ken anderson.]

hello stuey-I'm sure that any near by club that has an examiner will consider you for a test.......what you need to do is get a copy of the schedule and practice it.......I'm an examiner at our club........ and I would say that anyone who is an established flyer and already flying solo competently ....should have no problems doing an A test...

ken Anderson ne...1....... test dept.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

correct, A test more or less says your safe to fly solo

try your dads club, you can prove yourself to them in advance

brush up on questions you'll get asked

don't get nervous and start rushing things

[Dave Miller]

Ask the BMFA. They will help you arrange to take it.

[Ian Jones]

...and the A Test costs nothing. Many people fail on the safety questions rather than the flying BTW.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

There are several ways.

1. There are "test days" a couple of times a year - often at Old Warden - just turn up. I think there is a small charge for flying there on the day - but only what you would typically pay to attend a fly-in say.

2. Most clubs that have an examiner would not turn someone away who wants to take the test. Contact the club and ask if they would agree to examine you. Its very unlikely they would say no. On your part a small donation to club funds would be appreciated by them just for the admin effort they will be put to.

3. The most obvious is your Dad;s club - simply say you'd like to become a member and fly there sometimes. They will say "Fine but you need an A-cert". You say "Ok can you do the test for me?" Easy peesie.

Note that you must be a BMFA member to take the test - for obvious reasons, the test is an achievement scheme run by the Association - it can only be applied to members. You can of course join the BMFA without being in an affiliated club - or indeed any club! You just pay your £32. You may well of course already be a member - if only for the insurance cover which for most of us is the main benefit of membership!

I'd just reinforce what others have said - to any flyer with even basic experience the flying part of the test is very straight forward and should present no problems. But do read the information on the test from the BMFA website which will tell you exactly what is expected of you both in terms of flying and the questions. It even tells you what sections of the BMFA Handbook you need to be familiar with to answer the questions!. Also, smart cookies read the Guidelines for Examiners - because that tells you exactly what the examiner is looking for.

You don't have to be an "ace pilot" to pass the test - you just have to be safe and in control of your model.

BEB

[Phil Green]

Its a while back now but when we moved up to Ponty I had to do the A, which back in Sheffield hadnt been a requirement. After months of waiting for the necessary coincidence of examiner availability, conditions and time off, I looked for another way just to get it over with. So I went to Colin Chapman at Midland Flight Training for a day. Yes it cost me a bit, but it was over and done with in one very enjoyable day. How long it would otherwise have taken I dont know but I saw the day with Colin as very good value, as well as good fun.

It is another option

Cheers

Phil

[Bandit]

started me thinking of a B...

[Martin Whybrow]

Beb, the BMFA A exam days run by Modelair at Old Warden haven't been run for 2 years now.

[John Privett]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 04/02/2014 11:43:06:

Note that you must be a BMFA member to take the test - for obvious reasons, the test is an achievement scheme run by the Association - it can only be applied to members.

I don't believe that's actually the case. It certainly wasn't some years ago and I don't think it's changed. In fact there was a mention at the BMFA Chairman's conference at Basingstoke last March that any examiner planning to take a test for a non-member should contact the BMFA office at least 24 hours ahead with the candidates name to ensure there'd be insurance cover on the day. That's as I recall it from 11 months ago anyway - a quick call to Manny or the new Achievment Scheme co-ordinator (don't remember his name...) would clarify this.

[John Privett]

UPDATE - Here's the info, on the BMFA website;

The BMFA Achievement Scheme is run by the BMFA as a National Scheme and it is open to all model flyers.

Where a non-member wishes to participate in the achievement scheme the examiner who will be conducting the test must inform the BMFA office via email or telephone, no later than the day prior to the test being carried out, of the non-member's full name, address and the date that the test will be conducted. This enables the BMFA to extend insurance at suitable levels for the day of the test. If this procedure is not followed the test will be invalid.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

that's a good point you made BEB

smart cookies should read examiners booklet

I see lots on here considering taking their A or B test, read the booklet

it may well encourage you to get test done

[cymaz]

Bandit, even better is the examiners notes for the b test published on the bmfa website.

Edited By cymaz on 04/02/2014 14:36:46

[Peter Beeney]

Regarding Stuey’s OP about his club membership status, and also to add to John’s note about the BMFA and members/nonmembers taking the test, just because a club is affiliated to the BMFA doesn’t necessarily mean you have to have an A certificate to fly solo. This is, as far as I know, not a BMFA rule, if it is so, it will be a local club rule; and some of the stories about the situations that can arise because of this are do tend to be a bit difficult to understand, to say the least.

Our small club is affiliated, but we just judge peoples flying ability on their flying ability. In fact you don’t have to have any formal qualifications as such to teach, either; we have the requisite examiners but there is certainly no pressure whatsoever put upon anyone to take the test. I’ve noticed that constantly throughout my time of model flying within clubs there has always seemed to be an extreme difficulty in actually being able to take the test, even when the club abounds with examiners. It’s always certainly been a small but persistent point about which to have a little gripe. We just endeavour to make it as easy and as relaxed as possible, in fact so laid back the candidate is perhaps only half aware that he/she, (we do have lady member with a A), is actually taking the test. But the examiners will still very much want to see well controlled flying and understanding, all the other members will collectively expect safe flying, so any pass will be a good pass. If there are any suspect areas there is ample opportunity for more practise. We would like to think that any newly A passed member would be able to go to another club site and fly without causing any consternation whatsoever.

Sorry this is not really so much about A test methods, but rather about general A test comments.

PB

[John Privett]

Posted by Peter Beeney on 04/02/2014 15:20:43:

... just because a club is affiliated to the BMFA doesn’t necessarily mean you have to have an A certificate to fly solo. This is, as far as I know, not a BMFA rule, if it is so, it will be a local club rule; and some of the stories about the situations that can arise because of this are do tend to be a bit difficult to understand, to say the least.

Good point, Peter, and as you say it is NOT a BMFA requirement or rule to have an A to fly solo.

Clubs can set whatever standards they choose, and for many the A test is what they require. I guess for smaller clubs particularly, where everybody knows everybody else, and a new member is a comparative rarity, a 'local' test or quick evaluation of a new member's flying is perfectly suited.

[John Lee]

Posted by stuey on 04/02/2014 09:00:37:
..... I have spoken to a well known flying school where I can be tested after a couple of hours tuition.

From the BMFA R/C Acheivement scheme news:

'At the BMFA Full Council meeting in May earlier this year, a vote was passed that effectively prohibits achievement scheme tests being conducted by examiners working in commercial model flight training schools. It prevents them testing their own pupils and or those of other instructors working at the same school.

This doesn’t necessarily put an end to testing taking place at training schools full stop, it’s just that from now on the test will have to be conducted by an external examiner i.e. not one who is employed or associated with the school for gain.....'

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

John - re non-BMFA members taking the A-test; well you live and learn - I didn't know that.

Phil - I think most larger clubs have no problem providing an examiner - and other than prolonged periods of bad weather, which we know all about at present!, I personally have never known any student pilot I've instructed to have to wait an unreasonable time for a test. Remember you only require a single examiner to be present for an A-test and many clubs have 3 or more examiners.

Peter you are absolutely correct - the BMFA places no requirement on a club that members must have an A-cert to fly solo. But a great many clubs do use it as a national scheme which provides an off-the-shelf means of assessing someone's ability to fly safely and be suitable to allow to fly without supervision. In some clubs - including my own - the requirement is indeed imposed from outside, in our case the council; its a clause in our lease.

BEB

[G-JIMG]

Posted by John Lee on 04/02/2014 16:10:46:

Posted by stuey on 04/02/2014 09:00:37:
..... I have spoken to a well known flying school where I can be tested after a couple of hours tuition.

From the BMFA R/C Acheivement scheme news:

'At the BMFA Full Council meeting in May earlier this year, a vote was passed that effectively prohibits achievement scheme tests being conducted by examiners working in commercial model flight training schools. It prevents them testing their own pupils and or those of other instructors working at the same school.

This doesn’t necessarily put an end to testing taking place at training schools full stop, it’s just that from now on the test will have to be conducted by an external examiner i.e. not one who is employed or associated with the school for gain.....'

Does that mean Club Examiners cannot test individuals that have learnt to fly at the Club, or are the BMFA only discriminating against commercial Instructors/Examiners?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I would think it means the r/c holiday or flight training schools need independent examiners

to avoid conflict of interest

[Paul Marsh]

I'm thinking of doing my Heli 'A' cert this year.

[Erfolg]

I want a "A" certificate, so as to be able to fly at Greenacres.

To date I have successfully made over 100 take offs and landings. An unbelievable number of figures of "8". Numerous loops, although for some time my model would not consistantly complete the second, where corrections were needed due to not flying true, that is to keep the diameters the same, on the same position. I have managed two dead stick landings for real, probably 10 practice. Numerous square circuits, plus a number of low passes from opposite directions. This over approximately a year.

I would imagine that the examiners as probably more inconvenienced and bored than me. I just like flying!

I have been flying RC for probably 10 years, competed in the BARCS league, without incident, in the past.

I do not think you just have to be a safe flyer, it requires a little something else. I am not certain that I will have it for Greenacres, although I am no longer bothered.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by john stones 1 on 04/02/2014 17:37:38:

I would think it means the r/c holiday or flight training schools need independent examiners

to avoid conflict of interest

I agree John. There is no financial pressure on a club examiner to pass people. And if he is the sort of person who "doesn't like to disappoint people" then he shouldn't be an examiner. He needs to be fair, apply the test as described and be consistent.

At commercial training centres there could be pressure to "deliver" to the customer. People sometimes confuse buying a course and buying a qualification - I work in a university ask me how I know this! Also there could be commercial pressure - high success rates are a potential selling point.

I'm not suggesting that commercial trainers are, or have been, doing anything improper. But it would be naïve not to recognise that such pressures exist. By having an external examiner I think it better for them - it means the high success rates they undoubtedly achieve are externally validated and puts them beyond unfair suspicion and reproach. I'm sure the best such training centres welcome such a development.

BEB

[John Privett]

So why not just turn up and do the test?

It sounds like your flying should easily be good enough - it's just a level of basic competence that's required, not precision aerobatics, and I don't know where the loops come into the A test????

For reference, here is the test 'checklist' from the BMFA A test guidance document

(a) Carry out pre-flight checks as required by the BMFA Safety Codes.
(b) Take off and complete a left (or right) hand circuit and overfly the take - off area.
(c) Fly a ‘figure of eight’ course with the cross-over point in front of the pilot, height to be constant.
(d) Fly a rectangular circuit and approach with appropriate use of the throttle and perform a landing on the designated landing area.
(e) Take off and complete a left (or right) hand circuit and overfly the take-off area
(f) Fly a rectangular circuit at a constant height in the opposite direction to the landing circuit flown in (d).
(g) Perform a simulated deadstick landing with the engine at idle, beginning at a safe height (approx. 200 ft) heading into wind over the take-off area, the landing to be made in a safe manner on the designated landing area.
(h) Remove model and equipment from take-off/landing area.
(i) Complete post-flight checks required by the BMFA Safety Codes.
Answer a minimum of five questions on safety matters from the BMFA Safety Codes and local flying rules

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

From what I understand from previous comments of your's Erf, your club does not implement the A-test in its nationally recognised form. For example there are no loops in the A-test - single or multiple. There is no requirement for a low pass in the A-test - in any direction let alone both!

I believe the test is a fair assessment of your ability to fly and operate a model safely. The flying part is designed to assess that you're in-control at all times and can, within bounds, make the model do what you want it to do for basic flight. We all know the classic beginner's problem - he's not flying the model, he's just intervening occasionally and basically letting the model do what it happens to be doing! The flying exercises in the A are designed to demonstrate that isn't the case.

They are not onerous - just very basic tests of control. Take off in a reasonable straight line and climb to a reasonable height before performing a well controlled turn into circuit. Fly a circuit at constant height - without losing or gaining height in the turns. Do the same in the other direction - this shows you can turn the model round neatly and that you can fly left and righthand circuits - let's face it a pretty basic skill for any pilot. The figure 8 is an excellent test of your fine control in a turn being able to alter the rate of turn during the manoeuvre. In any sort of wind you will have to compensate to keep the lobes basically the same. The deadstick not only tests your ability to cope with the most common in-flight "emergency", more importantly it tests your judgement of height and speed as you must use up your height sensibly. Finally the ability to land safely, somewhere on the strip, in one piece, is fairly obvious test of your model control and your attitude to safety in terms of making the appropriate calls and observations.

None of this is rocket science. Remember its not an F3a competition. You will not, or at least should not, be failed for minor faults. If your 8 isn't absolutely perfect that's OK - as long as it was adequate, you showed a clear understanding of compensation for wind and at all times you were fully in control. Your dead stick landing doesn't have be smack in the middle of the strip - it just has to be on the strip - somewhere! Your circuits don't have to be IMAC standards of level - they just have to be basically the same height - showing again you are in control. A candidate who perhaps loses a couple of feet coming out of a turn, but immediately spots its and corrects appropriately should not fail. Indeed he may well be better than the "lucky" pilot who just pulls off a text book circuit on the day!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Snap John! I had to break off part way through and so it took me too long and we cross posted!

BEB