Electric Cars.

[Tim Kearsley]

51 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Isn't there currently a significant problem in the second hand market? The 'fall-off' of the battery performance......... is it still about 2.5% a year?

Don't think so.  The price of the used stock of the equivalent of my car on Tesla's own web site is not far off the price I paid for mine two years ago. 

[MattyB]

4 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Don't think so.  The price of the used stock of the equivalent of my car on Tesla's own web site is not far off the price I paid for mine two years ago. 

Only a few months ago I was looking at used Leafs and Kia Soul EVs, the same car (1 year older and with another 10k miles) had appreciated in value several thousand £s since 12 months before. Yes, all secondhand values have generally been better in the last 18 months due to supply chain issues on new cars, but it’s particularly pronounced on EVs.

[Trevor Crook]

It seems that battery capacity drops by 2 - 3% in the first year or so, then stays remarkably steady for several years. Even if an old battery fails, individual modules can often be replaced for a few hundred pounds, about the same as a cambelt change. Modern EVs use very sophisticated battery management. 

Like you, Matty, its the purchase price that's the hurdle for me to overcome.

[MattyB]

More from Tesla on this point… They are saying their cars generally average 90% of capacity after 200k, more like 1% degradation per year.
 

https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/amp/

“In the "2020 Impact Report Tesla reiterates high battery capacity retention (low degradation) in its electric cars.

According to the company's data, the average vehicle battery in Tesla should still have about 90% of its original capacity after 200,000 miles (322,000 km) of usage. That's a very good result of just 10% battery capacity (and range) degradation: 1% per 20,000 miles (32,200 km).

 

Assuming 250 miles per full cycle (just for illustrative purposes), it's also about 800 cycles with a degradation rate of 1% per 80 cycles (or a higher number of partial cycles).

 

That's a lot, especially since typically a car is scrapped after about 200,000 miles in the U.S. In Europe, it's 150,000 miles (241,000 km). Tesla's approach is to design the pack in such a way so they could outlast the car.

 

In other words, batteries should not be a problem and besides the rare faulty battery, the normal user probably will never have to worry about replacing the pack.”

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by MattyB

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Where can I get one of these wonderful battery's to replace my rubbish lipo's, there is a real market for them in the modelling world.

[Frank Skilbeck]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Where can I get one of these wonderful battery's to replace my rubbish lipo's, there is a real market for them in the modelling world.

The secret is not to discharge them in under 10mins, so if you use a battery with a 3 hour run time it should last for ages.............................

[Trevor Crook]

Indeed, cars don't abuse their batteries like we do - drive a 200 mile range EV at an average of 50mph and it will take 4 hours to deplete the battery, which is an average discharge rate of 0.25C. They use optimised battery chemistry, and most use liquid cooling/heating for thermal management.  If you use the satnav in a Tesla to take you to a charger, it will precondition the battery on the way to optimise charging conditions.

[Piers Bowlan]

EV batteries are manufactured to industrial standards unlike our LiPos. 
The Nissan Leaf battery is guaranteed for 100,000 miles and 8 years. 
I havn’t noticed any loss of range or performance since I bought it eighteen months ago from new. Have done 18,000 miles now.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Piers Bowlan

[Peter Christy]

17 hours ago, Trevor Crook said:

Other costs to consider: in the UK, diesel cars are subject to £165 p.a. VED.

Er, not sure where you got that from! Last year I bought my first diesel - a 2015 Volvo V70 (good model lugger!). The tax on it is £30 p.a! (yes, I was surprised, too!)

 

I didn't want a diesel, but due to short-sighted government policy from a few years back, its very difficult to find decent petrol powered load luggers! I have been pleasantly surprised. The 8-speed auto compensates well for the limited power band of a diesel, performance is more than adequate, and it returns 50mpg+ on a run! Couple that with the very low annual tax, and its hard to argue against it.

 

It looks like diesel prices have peaked, and are slowly coming down. Electricity prices however are still on the way up. It will be interesting to see how the economics pans out in 12 months time...

 

--

Pete

 

[Bob Burton]

20 hours ago, MattyB said:

 

The Skoda Enyaq is actually more practical and less expensive than a Y, but obviously cannot use the Supercharger network which for many is the reason they go for a Tesla. 

Hasn't the Supercharger network been opened to all users now, at a cost, of course

[Tim Kearsley]

3 minutes ago, Bob Burton said:

Hasn't the Supercharger network been opened to all users now, at a cost, of course

Just a few at the moment Bob, to trial it.  The problem is that the superchargers are specifically designed for Tesla cars (obviously!), which have the charge port at the rear, near-side, and the cable from the charger is short.  Cars with charge ports located in other locations have to park in funny positions to make the cable reach and there has been some... errr, "friction" where non-Tesla vehicles have blocked off a couple of charge bays by parking across them so that they can make it work!  To fully open up the supercharger network they need to provide longer cables.  One other annoyance for Tesla owners is that the satnav display in the car tells you how many charger stalls are free at a supercharger but if some of them are blocked off by non-Teslas then that display is no longer reliable.

[Bob Burton]

27 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said:

 they need to provide longer cables. 

If there is a demand then presumably aftermarket extension cables will become available if they are not already

[GrumpyGnome]

Good to know the drop-off isn't a real-life issue. 

 

Hopefully, when my old Skoda dies (more than a decade away in all probability) cost will be less of an issue....  my problem then would be getting power to my garage, which is next door but one! Small rural villages are very higgledy-piggledy.

[Trevor Crook]

Pete, the £165 comes from the government website, and is the annual VED paid on all non-plug-in cars registered after April 2017. Prior to that, it was a sliding scale based on CO2 emissions, hence your lower figure. My 2018 Hyundai 1.4 turbo petrol is £165, my wife's 2014 Fiat 500 1.2 petrol is £30.

1 hour ago, Peter Christy said:

Er, not sure where you got that from! Last year I bought my first diesel - a 2015 Volvo V70 (good model lugger!). The tax on it is £30 p.a! (yes, I was surprised, too!)

 

I didn't want a diesel, but due to short-sighted government policy from a few years back, its very difficult to find decent petrol powered load luggers! I have been pleasantly surprised. The 8-speed auto compensates well for the limited power band of a diesel, performance is more than adequate, and it returns 50mpg+ on a run! Couple that with the very low annual tax, and its hard to argue against it.

 

It looks like diesel prices have peaked, and are slowly coming down. Electricity prices however are still on the way up. It will be interesting to see how the economics pans out in 12 months time...

 

--

Pete

 

 

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Where can I get one of these wonderful battery's to replace my rubbish lipo's, there is a real market for them in the modelling world.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Crook said:

Indeed, cars don't abuse their batteries like we do - drive a 200 mile range EV at an average of 50mph and it will take 4 hours to deplete the battery, which is an average discharge rate of 0.25C. They use optimised battery chemistry, and most use liquid cooling/heating for thermal management.  If you use the satnav in a Tesla to take you to a charger, it will precondition the battery on the way to optimise charging conditions.

 

They are lithium based, but a completely different construction to lipos - the fact they don't need to discharge at high rates mean they do not need the gel electrolyte layer which is where the dendrites form in a lipo. As a result they are both safer and will have much longer cycle lives, especially given the sophistication of EV battery management and cooling, but obviously you could not use them to power most electric models as the discharge rate wouldn't be high enough. Horses for courses.

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Just a few at the moment Bob, to trial it.  The problem is that the superchargers are specifically designed for Tesla cars (obviously!), which have the charge port at the rear, near-side, and the cable from the charger is short.  Cars with charge ports located in other locations have to park in funny positions to make the cable reach and there has been some... errr, "friction" where non-Tesla vehicles have blocked off a couple of charge bays by parking across them so that they can make it work!  To fully open up the supercharger network they need to provide longer cables.  One other annoyance for Tesla owners is that the satnav display in the car tells you how many charger stalls are free at a supercharger but if some of them are blocked off by non-Teslas then that display is no longer reliable.

 

Wow, I can imagine some top quality road rage incidents must have been happening in those instances... 😉🤣

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, Peter Christy said:

It looks like diesel prices have peaked, and are slowly coming down. Electricity prices however are still on the way up. It will be interesting to see how the economics pans out in 12 months time...

 

Diesel and petrol are back on the up around here, presumably because of the collapse of the pound vs the $. I do agree that the economics of EVs may become even trickier to make work in the coming years though, unless you can charge predominantly via solar at home.

Edited September 30, 2022 by MattyB

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

22 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

Diesel and petrol are back on the up around here, presumably because of the collapse of the pound vs the $. I do agree that the economics of EVs may become even trickier to make work in the coming years though, unless you can charge predominantly via solar at home.

Over here it's taxes, diesel was always 20c + less then petrol and the French government insisted that their car makers were to produce diesel cars, now suddenly not so green the diesel is 20c more than petrol.😡, still al least 1.5l more economical than petrol it is still worth it, till we become public enemy N°1 in the green towns, the ones where there are no solar panels on the public buildings roofs !🤢

[Geoff Copping]

In St Ives, Cambridgeshire, they are covering the Park & Ride car park with solar panels so cars can park underneath them and charge up whilst away on the bus.

 

Just wondering how long it will take the second hand? charging cable to blossom on auction sites🙄

[IDD15]

36 minutes ago, Geoff Copping said:

In St Ives, Cambridgeshire, they are covering the Park & Ride car park with solar panels so cars can park underneath them and charge up whilst away on the bus.

 

Just wondering how long it will take the second hand? charging cable to blossom on auction sites🙄

Seems like a good idea, when you consider the amount of land given over to storing cars you double the use of the land. As a bonus cars under the canopy will be cooler so the a/c won’t be working as hard either when it’s driven off. It won’t make the PM feel sick either, bless. Win win win! 😀

idd

[IDD15]

SMMT have reported the September Sales  figures for new cars and according to them there are now just over 1M cars with a plug (BEV and PHEV) on UK roads, a significant milestone. Interestingly the Tesla model Y was the second best seller last month. Given that Tesla is ramping up production at its plants in Shanghai and Berlin were the cars are built it will be interesting to see if it maintains such a good position. 

 

Charging infrastructure is also continuing to improve with Zap Map reporting:

"1,126 new charging devices were installed across the country in September. This brings the UK total to 34,860 devices, across 20,888 locations. It also represents a 35% increase in the number of charging devices since September 2021.

Furthermore, last month saw 256 new rapid and ultra-rapid charging devices installed, bringing the total to 6,411. This includes an increase of 76% in the number of ultra-rapid devices – capable of adding from 70 miles in as little as 15 minutes – since September last year"

In summary the numbers for EVs continue to move in the right direction.

 

Cheers

idd

 

[Chris Walby]

Looks like EV's are giving the US Florida fire departments a headache and owners told to move water damaged one out of garages. Of course Ic would be damaged, but not cause a fire risk.

 

In the aftermath of the devastating Hurricane Ian in Florida, things are going from bad to worse. The destruction is massive, and also ongoing. That’s because even though the hurricane occurred over a week ago, its after-effects are mounting. These include the instances of Tesla EVs exploding into flames around the state. The mixture of electricity and salt water leads to these latent fires. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

The EV's owners ( 2 at our club )are looking smug over here with the refinery strikes and pickets who are blocking petrol  and diesel deliveries,

80% in my area are closed and silly queues for it, still with the new french 'intelligent' Linky electric counters and at least 12 nuclear power stations

closed down for repairs the EDF ( electricity company ) will be wiping the smug smile from their faces when they cut their current off in winter.

[Ron Gray]

Took an MG 4 Trophy out for a test drive yesterday, I was very, very impressed. Build quality and standard of finish far better than I expected (OK there were a few cheapish plasticky bits in a couple of places but nothing major). Ride quality / comfort was excellent and both wind and road noise lower than I expected. Plenty of room inside, in fact the rear passengers are spoilt for space. Decent load size for a hatchback, might just get the Hurri's 82" wing in there! Range, for the Trophy circa 270 miles (the SE is 280) and interesting that it uses its 12v battery for heated screens etc, which is topped up from the main batteries, so for shortish journeys on cold, damp winter days should not see a detrimental effect on range. Performance was sparkling and regeneration settings gave it nearly one pedal driving (depending on which setting chosen). Also it creeps in at just under £32K (for some colours) so gets the £1500 gov allowance which has been reintroduced. So, all in all a brilliant EV which I would buy apart from............

 

The towbar has a 50Kg rating which means that it is a non starter for me as me and the wife have lecky 'bikes which weigh it at just under 25Kg each and when you add the bike carrier @18Kg the towbar weight is just too much. I guess the low weight carrying capacity (max towing weight is 500Kg!) is down to the car being a rear engined, rear wheel drive configuration. It's a great shame, however, next year will see 2 new versions of the 4, a twin motor 460 bhp (wow!!) sport model and an extra range version which may have a greater lugging capacity due to a heavier body weight.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ron Gray

[Chris Walby]

 I guess the low weight carrying capacity (max towing weight is 500Kg!) is down to the car being a rear engined, rear wheel drive configuration. 

 

Didn't seem to impact rear engine Skoda's, VW Beatles or VW camper vans having tow bars? Decision of the manufacturer not wanting the range hammered with barn door attached. 

My daughters VW UP can't have a tow ball of any type fitted, that's just how VW designed it. Towing is a minority market and they probably can't be bothered to go to all the effort in design and testing for little gain.