Electric Cars.

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Erfolg said:

Nothing at present is crystal clear to me, much of the claims with respect to EVs vehicles, is hype, the difficulties glossed over.   Who should pay for the additional infrastructure seems to be ducked.

 

Nobody here is glossing over the current situation wrt the shorter range on one "tank" vs. ICE, longer time to recharge vs liquid fuels, or flakey public charging infrastructure. Every EV owner knows those are factors at present, but they are all steadily improving over time. What there is a lot of is people who have never driven or owned an EV telling people who have one or are considering one that they are rubbish because they don't yet fit everyone's use case. If that's the case for you then fine, don't buy one, no-one is making you (least of all Rishi it seems), but please don't moan at those of us who do want to move forward with EVs on the basis that they suit our needs just fine. 

 

1 hour ago, Erfolg said:

The additional damage to roads should be paid for by EVs, IMO the user should pay, not the carless old age pensioner, or other similar type of group.

 

This is just FUD. An EV does no more damage to the road than an ICE car of the same weight. It is weight we should be worried about, not powertrain.

 

Yes, an EV of the same size is 10-20% heavier than an equivalently sized ICE car, but is that really the dominant factor causing roads to deteriorate when there are only somewhere between 1-1.5m of them in the UK? Way before EVs were a thing people started moving to big, heavy SUVs, but weirdly nobody got worried about the impact to roads then or advocated for a tax based on weight. How many school Mums in Audi Q7s are there for every Leaf or Model 3 that replaced a Golf or BMW 3 series? And what about all the extra supermarket home delivery and parcel logistics lorries that trundle up and down rural and domestic roads because most of us (me included!) no longer shop in towns as much? The fourth power law says that the damage caused by those vehiles must absolutely dwarf anything you could put down to EVs.

Edited October 3, 2023 by MattyB

[Wingman]

My insurance company recently supplied a rental Subaru XV e-Boxer while my car was in for repair.

I have no experience of EVs so I was curious as to the "e-Boxer" badging. It only seemed to flash up "EV" on the dash at odd low speed occasions so got the user manual online and checked it out. Firstly EV only operates at speeds below 40kph (eh!) OK so I tried it out - on the flat I could get it to run EV as long as I didn't accelerate (eh!) and as soon as the car started up the slightest of gradient, and the engine torqued up, the EV dropped out and the petrol engine restarted.

So I dug out the specs as below.

You can see that the battery will supply 568 watts (118.4 x 4.8) for an hour.

The motor is rated at 12.3kW. So how long will the battery run the car for? - 568/12300 x 60 = 2.77 minutes at a max torque of 6.7 kg/m ( not very far up the rice pudding skin scale😄)

All this extra juice has, of course, to drag the battery pack around, a pack which,incidentally, takes up half the boot space.

 

 

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I must admit that I struggle to see the logic in hybrid vehicles - you have all the maintenance and emission control systems complications of an IC engined car plus the additional weight of a battery and traction motor(s). 
 

I’m anything but against IC - my true automotive love is my ‘55 Land-Rover. We’ve been together for almost 44 years and I have no intention of getting a divorce until I either can’t climb up into the old girl or can’t buy petrol!

 

Surely there’s more to road damage than weight alone.  Tyre contact area must be a factor so perhaps it’s possible that an “ecologically” designed vehicle with smaller and maybe more highly inflated tyres could actually inflict more damage?

[Erfolg]

John, I obviously chose a bad example with ZF. There will be a some companies whose present output is solely as an IC supplier, they either have to develop new markets or die. 

 

MatyB, much of what I have quoted has come from Business pages, which I no longer have, nor probably able to find the original on the Internet.

 

Today there is an interesting article in the Business section of the Telegraph. It covers the sales of Tesla, sales drop, discounting on various models, new broader range models and the impact on share price (down). You make of it as you wish. I do find that the business sections of various media publishers gives a far more informative source, rather than the placed stories in the main bodies of publications.

 

As for sweeping issues under the carpet. For me it is the lack of generating capacity (at this time), the problems of lack of interconnector capacity, never mind the true position of wind generation (much is made of transient production, ignoring the base load issues). IMO this is just a snap shot of a whole variety of issues,  a room full of Elephants. The issue of who should pay for this transition is yet another issue, increasing the Standing Charges for all, seems very unfair to the lower paid etc.

 

As for the weight issues with EVs, it is very real, most IC SUVs , weigh the same as the majority of EVs, at the lower end The concerns of Multi story car parks, increased road wear are not the figment of being Anti-EVs groups/individuals, they are real issues. Some of the resent EV SUVs have a weight that no one would have thought as credible a few years back.

 

I probably will now never buy an electric vehicle, as much to do with my age and the purchase cost. I am not against them (EVs) per se, at present my Diesel is OK. Longer term EVs will have to raise the tax contribution to the Treasury as IC vehicles make today.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Erfolg

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, Erfolg said:

As for the weight issues with EVs, it is very real, most IC SUVs , weigh the same as the majority of EVs, at the lower end. The concerns of Multi story car parks, increased road wear are not the figment of being Anti-EVs groups/individuals, they are real issues. Some of the resent EV SUVs have a weight that no one would have thought as credible a few years back.

 

What am I missing here? A sample of representative SUVs with differing powertrains (EV weights from here, ICE ones from amnufacturer websites and Autocar)...

• Skoda Enyaq 60kwh - 1965kg
• Skoda Enyaq 80kwh - 2075kg
• Tesla Model Y std range - 1984 kg
• Tesla Model Y std range - 2054 kg
• Nissan Ariya 63 kwh - 1980kg
• Nissan Ariya 87 kwh - 2530kg (what a porker!)
• BMW X5 diesel 2016 model (i.e, prior to mass market EVs) - 2070kg
• BMW X5 diesel, 2023 model - 2295kg
• Audi Q5 Diesel - 1850kg
• Audi Q7 diesel - 2150kg

And for balance, three 2023 family hatches...

• VW ID3 55kwh - 1772kg
• Nissan Leaf 40kwh - 1580kg
• VW Golf diesel - 1450kg

So yes, the average EV probably is a tad heavier than the average ICE car, though Tesla are clearly leaders in keeping that weight under control. The problem for roads and car parks though is not EVs; it's the fact people started to edge towards ginormous unaerodynamice SUVs about 15 years ago, and car makers have continued to fuel that trend and build sales of their Chelsea barges where profit margins are presumably fatter. How many unnecessary millions of tonnes of additional vehicle weight are now loafing about out roads as a result, costing their owners more to fuel and reducing pedestrian. motorbike and bicyle safety?

 

PS - Yes, I know about the ID.Buzz California debacle. I can only assume the designers of that had completely lost the plot and were dreaming about sunny summers days on Venice beach or something as they added accessory after accessory and the weight climbed ever higher...!

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by MattyB

[J D 8]

 I drive a lot on the narrow single track roads around home, many visitors in their SUV 4x4 barges will not even put a wheel on the grass verge to make room to pass, it's nut's.

  As for some of the reversing attempts.🤣 

Had a big SUV in the summer just stop in the middle of the road where I met him. Then he was looking up at his roof lining. I thought he was having a heart attack but then realized he was just ignoring me in the hope I would go away. Grass verge was dry so squeezed my Focus past and as I did slapped his side with my hand. That woke him up.

Edited October 3, 2023 by J D 8
more info

[Erfolg]

According to Admiral, electric cars weigh 200-300kg more than their IC equivalent.

 

In a way it matters less, than the longer term opportunity to increase charging for EVs. As IC cars disappear, EVs of necessity will become the "cash cows" of the future. As with every aspect of life, we all will have to pay for the changes necessary. There are not enough rich to pay for it all. We will pay either via taxes or charging for services.

 

It does depress me that some are so driven by dogma, that there is an willingness to see reality. I am not thinking of anyone that is part of this discussion.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Erfolg

[john davidson 1]

Interesting vid on youtube tried to copy with no luck

Jay Leno Hauls Tesla Semi With Tesla Semi

 

 

[Erfolg]

Yet another interesting newspaper article, today, in the Telegraph (this time), business section.

 

I know that there will be those on this forum, who will understand what it potentially mean. BYD sold 431,603 in the third quarter of the year, against Tesla 435,059. BYDS sales rose by 23%, whilst Tesla fell by 7%.

 

 Apparently BYD launched £36,490 Atto in March. That Nio sold 55,432 cars in the third quarter.

 

Not a clue as to what it means, probably others do.

[Gary Manuel]

43 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

Yet another interesting newspaper article, today, in the Telegraph (this time), business section.

 

I know that there will be those on this forum, who will understand what it potentially mean. BYD sold 431,603 in the third quarter of the year, against Tesla 435,059. BYDS sales rose by 23%, whilst Tesla fell by 7%.

 

 Apparently BYD launched £36,490 Atto in March. That Nio sold 55,432 cars in the third quarter.

 

Not a clue as to what it means, probably others do.

BYD = Build Your Dreams. No idea what it means business wise.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Gary Manuel

[Frank Skilbeck]

57 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

Yet another interesting newspaper article, today, in the Telegraph (this time), business section.

 

I know that there will be those on this forum, who will understand what it potentially mean. BYD sold 431,603 in the third quarter of the year, against Tesla 435,059. BYDS sales rose by 23%, whilst Tesla fell by 7%.

 

 Apparently BYD launched £36,490 Atto in March. That Nio sold 55,432 cars in the third quarter.

 

Not a clue as to what it means, probably others do.

Basically the Chinese government is backing the production of EVs big time and supporting their manufacturers to dominate the world.market. EU and US already looking if their companies are unfairly undercutting domestic manufacturers. Tesla sales falling due to manufacturing disruption as they revamped the Model 3, which is by far their biggest seller.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

A quick google shows BYD to be a large Chinese EV maker. 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, john davidson 1 said:

Interesting vid on youtube tried to copy with no luck

Jay Leno Hauls Tesla Semi With Tesla Semi

 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Gary Manuel said:

BYD = Build Your Dreams. No idea what it means business wise.

 

41 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

Basically the Chinese government is backing the production of EVs big time and supporting their manufacturers to dominate the world market. EU and US already looking if their companies are unfairly undercutting domestic manufacturers. Tesla sales falling due to manufacturing disruption as they revamped the Model 3, which is by far their biggest seller.

 

BYD are one of big Chinese EV makers who actually make more cars than Tesla nowadays. In China their EVs are properly affordable and are revolutionising the market, but by the time they get over to the EU, UK or US they mysteriously seem to get a whole lot more expensive. You can buy BYDs (the Atto and Dolphon) and Ora (Cat) here now, Nio I don't think are (they are quite interesting in that they operate a battery swapping service in China as an alternative to fast charging).

 

I haven't seen many for these Chinese brand EVs around yet though. I did register my interest initially when Ora first announced, but when I saw what has happened to secondhand EV prices it quickly became obvious that buying a new one was not a good idea as a private buyer, especially not a challenger brand with little to no dealer network.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

25 minutes ago, MattyB said:

they are quite interesting in that they operate a battery swapping service in China

That's one of the things I am waiting for amongst others,,,

[Robert Cracknell]

Talking of Chinese EV's....

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620.amp&ved=2ahUKEwjviYTH_dyBAxVQQEEAHUfhBOoQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw37jXl9EewBVudJdMp9TQCq

[Geoff S]

4 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

That's one of the things I am waiting for amongst others,,,

 

It does seem to be a more viable option than so-called fast charging which needs very high power sources to supply the necessary energy quicker.  It will mean a standardisation of battery format, though, which will take some agreement amongst manufacturers.

 

I know people are concerned about the range and 'refuelling' of EVs but it was much the same when petrol-engined vehicles were first introduced.  There were lots of places to get stabling or fresh horses but few to get petrol.  It takes time.  Someone I knew (a friend of my father's) could remember when every Sunday a local attempted to drive from Nottingham to Newark and back but always returned being pulled by a pair of horses.  There was jubilation when he actually succeeded in returning under his own power. At the time horses (and steam trains) were considered to be more reliable.  It will change as it has done before.

[IDD15]

NIO battery swapping and wireless EV charging.

 

Fully Charged - NIO Battery swap and EV Wireless charging

 

It’s gone very quiet on the wireless charging front since this episode of FC, though Tesla have bought a company that was developing it. I think there are now 26 NIO swapping stations in Scandinavia/Northern Europe and they just commissioned a newer version that does not jack up the car. The NIO vehicles can still fast charge in the conventional sense as well as battery swap. 
 

cheers

idd

[MattyB]

16 hours ago, Geoff S said:

(Battery swapping) does seem to be a more viable option than so-called fast charging which needs very high power sources to supply the necessary energy quicker.  It will mean a standardisation of battery format, though, which will take some agreement amongst manufacturers.

 

16 hours ago, IDD15 said:

NIO battery swapping and wireless EV charging.

 

Fully Charged - NIO Battery swap and EV Wireless charging

 

It’s gone very quiet on the wireless charging front since this episode of FC, though Tesla have bought a company that was developing it. I think there are now 26 NIO swapping stations in Scandinavia/Northern Europe and they just commissioned a newer version that does not jack up the car. The NIO vehicles can still fast charge in the conventional sense as well as battery swap. 

 

I'm afraid this whole battery swap thing looks like cloud cuckoo stuff to me. Taking this approach requires massive collaboration/cooperation on the side of the manufacturers (yeah, right!), adds huge amounts of complexity, infrastructure, space for the swap stations and battery storage, not to mention the cost of all those. The system will also add weight to the car and restrict manufacturers in terms of the platforms and layouts they can use.

 

The fact that Nio have been doing this since 2014 but are still the only manufacturer following this path would seem to indicate it's not a favoured option and has a lot of disadvantages. Yes there are still issues with fast charging to be solved, but think about it - those same issues still have to be sorted even if you are doing battery swapping (all swapped packs will need to be charged nearly immediately so they can be used for an upcoming swapout, as to be cost effective there can't be twice as many batteries as cars with 50% not in use at any given time).

 

Wireless charging though does look to be a good idea, at least for vehicles like buses and short range urban runabouts. I'm not sure it really helps that much when you go on a med/long journey though, especially if (as espoused by the guy in the FC video) your car has a pack half the size of that in a current longer range EV:

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyB

[Erfolg]

MatyB, any charging must be at a cost to the user. This must apply to wireless charging.

 

Swapping batteries, seems great at first sight. As you have written, not a practical solution. It interests me how it is possible to physically switch a battery, I know it is happening from what you have written. On the other hand I have read that a significant proportion of EVs maintenance bills, is the H&S issue of isolating/discharging the batteries. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

What's wrong with swapping battery's the only fixed one I have is in my phone, my tv channel changer, radio, torch, cordless drill etc,,, all have batteries that are swapped.

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Erfolg said:

MatyB, any charging must be at a cost to the user. This must apply to wireless charging.

 

I don't think anyone is expecting charging to be free, wireless or not! My comments were merely based on it being a potential practical soolution to charging issues in certain use cases.

 

1 hour ago, Erfolg said:

Swapping batteries, seems great at first sight. As you have written, not a practical solution. It interests me how it is possible to physically switch a battery, I know it is happening from what you have written.

 

Just watch the video above, they demonstrate it starting from 4m16s. To be fair it is very impressive tech, I just don't think it scales well and requires a level of cooperation between manufacturrers that is incredibly unlikely.

 

1 hour ago, Erfolg said:

On the other hand I have read that a significant proportion of EVs maintenance bills, is the H&S issue of isolating/discharging the batteries. 

 

Sorry, don't know where you read that, but it's more FUD. If you have to replace the battery in a car then yes, obviously the mechanics will need to carry out specific procedures to do so given the high voltages involved, but there is zero need to do that for regular maintenance/servicing (which in an EV basically contitutes checking the brakes, tyres and wipers, topping up the washer fluid and sending you on your way).

 

29 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

What's wrong with swapping battery's the only fixed one I have is in my phone, my tv channel changer, radio, torch, cordless drill etc,,, all have batteries that are swapped.

 

I listed all the reasons in my post above. Battery switching makes sense in applications where the pack is cheap, small, light and not a structural element of the device. EV batteries fail those criteria on all points!

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyB

[Erfolg]

I know very little, other than what has been written with respect to working with EVs. The amount of energy in many domestic type devices, are very low, respective to energy in a car EV battery. 

 

Compare a domestic light switch when being actuated, with a National Grid switch. In your home arcing is not a big issue, on the grid, their are typical SF6. oil, air, breakers. 

 

From what is written removing EV batteries is a potentially big deal safety issue (as can be working on a EV).

[MattyB]

17 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

I know very little, other than what has been written with respect to working with EVs. The amount of energy in many domestic type devices, are very low, respective to energy in a car EV battery. 

 

Compare a domestic light switch when being actuated, with a National Grid switch. In your home arcing is not a big issue, on the grid, their are typical SF6. oil, air, breakers. 

 

From what is written removing EV batteries is a potentially big deal safety issue (as can be working on a EV).

 

As usual Erfolg, no source. If you want these half remembered anecdotes to be more credible, you need to link us to the source so we can decide the for ourselves. In this case I'm still calling FUD, as whilst high voltage electrics are obviously very dangerous if incorrectly handled, 99% of garage visits will not require them to go anywerhe near them. Take a look at Tesla's maintenance schedule page if you don't believe me - there are no tasks that require a mech to go anywhere near the powertrain.

 

For further clarification on batt swapping see above; I've added detail added to my post via an edit. The video shows you how this is done by Nio - a swap takes 5 min and is zero human touch. The car even reverses itself into the bay for the change!

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyB

[flight1]

Well this should put the true finacial cost of Ev's into light  as Nio loses $ 35000 a car sold!