Electric Cars.

[Zflyer]

"Herr Rommell excellent strategy but we have no charging points for the electric panzers"

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Not much different to German tanks being stuck without petrol in North Africa and during the Battle of the Bulge. 

[FlyinFlynn]

20 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Doesn't worry me.

 

https://thedriven.io/2023/05/16/petrol-and-diesel-cars-20-times-more-likely-to-catch-fire-than-evs/

The difference being though that a fireman can stand next to the petrol car and extinguish the flames while the ev is left to burn with everyone kept well upwind. It is only a matter of time before a department store or a block of flats has an EV fire in the parking area and serious casualties ensue from the toxic gasses emitted, the dutch oven got away without the mass casualties, we won't be that lucky forever.

 

" Presumably, this is due to EV makers improving fire suppressing designs in newer models"  

 

What fire suppressing design is that then? are 'newer models' supplied with a 500 gallon water reservoir on the roof or a halon suppression kit fitted in the cabin? Perhaps they have invented aluminium that doesn't burn at 500 degrees C.

[J D 8]

11 hours ago, Zflyer said:

"Herr Rommell excellent strategy but we have no charging points for the electric panzers"

 

   Ach Kapitan, if only the transport ship with all the petrol generators had nor been sunk.

[Tim Kearsley]

2 hours ago, FlyinFlynn said:

Perhaps they have invented aluminium that doesn't burn at 500 degrees C.

More doom and gloom and false statements to make a point.

 

Aluminium doesn't "burn"

 

As for fire suppression in EV, if you can't even be bothered to use Google then I can't be bothered to do it for you.

 

[FlyinFlynn]

8 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

More doom and gloom and false statements to make a point.

 

Aluminium doesn't "burn"

 

As for fire suppression in EV, if you can't even be bothered to use Google then I can't be bothered to do it for you.

 

Semantics. Aluminium won't withstand the temperatures generated in a Lithium fire, it will melt causing further mechanical degradation of the battery structure

 

Mmmm...let me see...

What is a fire suppression system in a car?

 

 

A vehicle fire suppression system is a pre-engineered fire suppression system safety accessory permanently mounted on any type of vehicle. These systems are especially prevalent in the mobile heavy equipment segment and are designed to protect equipment assets from fire damage and related losses.

 

Don't see many of those systems in 'a newer EV'

 

At an EV fire, large volumes of water, sustained over an extended period, is the best way to suppress flames & cool the traction battery.

 

Nope.. not many of those either

 

https://www.fireshieldsystemsltd.co.uk/applications/ev-hev/

 

DETECTION system.....talk about closing the stable door after the battery has conflagrated

WHAT IS FIREISOLATOR?

FIREISOLATOR is a concept for isolating and fighting EV car fires based on best practices and live testing. In general, there is not one single solution to extinguish or control EV car fires, as all firefighters who have dealt with these types of car fires will be able to confirm. Effectively isolating and fighting EV car fires takes several different methods because of the lithium-ion batteries on board of EV cars. The EV car will need to end up submerged in water in a container, but with the FIREISOLATOR concept, there is a lot that can be done beforehand to minimize the damages. Fighting EV car fires with the Fire Isolator concept has been thoroughly tested and proven to be effective.

 

 

So the latest EV's come with their own shipping container full of water do they?

 

 

Come on Tim, I guess you drew a blank as well.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by FlyinFlynn

[IDD15]

The chances of an ICE powered vehicle catching fire are I think we would all agree is pretty small. In over 40 years of driving I have only ever seen three vehicle fires. Factor in again that an EV is TWENTY times LESS likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle then the chances of ever seeing one are tending towards unlikely. Certainly a lot less than the FUD pedlars of the dead tree press would have you believe…
 

That factor of twenty is only going to get bigger as time goes on because EV batteries are rapidly moving towards Lithium Iron Phosphate and even Sodium based chemistries that are much less prone to thermal runaway. Over half of Teslas production (around 2 million EVs annually) already have LFP cells, and MG and other manufacturers use them in some of their vehicles. A second key driver to these new chemistries is the fact that the cells are cheaper to make, so invariably their use will become more widespread.

 

If an EV does catch fire it can be difficult to extinguish, no two ways about it. However methods and equipment is being developed all the time by the emergency services to help tackle these events. Examples include vehicle sized fire blankets to portable water tanks with closed re circulation systems.

As someone who has been trained to fight fires by the RN and Merseyside Fire Brigade (with and without breathing apparatus) my advice to anyone regardless of the type or nature of the fire is just get well away from it and the smoke. All fires are toxic.

 

cheers

idd

[GrumpyGnome]

7 hours ago, IDD15 said:

. Certainly a lot less than the FUD pedlars of the dead tree press would have you believe…

Can't we have a rational debate without resorting to insults and name calling?  This isn't the RC Groups forum.......

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

So how many model planes have you seen go up in smoke, electric verses liquid fuel, I rest my case,,,

[Ron Gray]

Considering this thread is about electric cars Paul, that comment is off topic and irrelevant!

[Learner]

Seen quite a few i.c fires over the years. On a race circuit the marshalls are on the scene and fires are put out quickly.

On the road however when it takes fire brigade 30 mins to get there

Whole vehicle is on fire upholstery and plastics gives off plenty toxic fumes and not so quick to extinguish.

I've been upside down in a car leaking petrol and its quite scary!

Choice of petrol or electric in a fire? Neither thanks!

[IDD15]

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Can't we have a rational debate without resorting to insults and name calling?  This isn't the RC Groups forum.......

I think it important to call out those sections of the media who are quite literally waging an information war against EV’s. What we are seeing is literally a rerun of the FUD campaigns used to promote smoking by the oil industry. Big oil is hugely successful and is estimated to receive $6 billion worldwide in the form of government subsidies alone. Just this week old “seven bins” has pledged £500 million in subsidies/tax breaks to develop a new oil field.

 

They’re not going to give up all that money without a fight…

 

There are more delegates from big oil and their lobbyists at this years COP conference than there are from the countries most affected by climate change. The president of this years COP is actually the head of a gulf states oil company…

 

When the Torygraph first announced in crowing terms in its first edition “seven bins” push back on the ban of ICE cars for another 5 years, on the same front page was a piece about how Russia and Saudia Arabia were colluding to restrict supplies of crude to push up prices… You couldn’t make it up really, needless to say that piece disappeared off the front page on subsequent editions.

 

cheers

idd

 

 

 

 

 

[FlyinFlynn]

At the end of the day you can spend your money on whatever means of conveyance you like, I would like to retain the right for me to choose mine, that current right is being eroded and I resent that.

 

Changing to an electric vehicle does not make any sense to me, it would be a huge waste of resources, both mine and the worlds, with the only benefit that I can see is it might be a bit exciting. Your mileage may vary, and that is fine, just please stop with the virtue signaling, just say 'I want one' and that is reason enough, changing to driving an electric car is not going to save the planet, it is not going to make even the slightest dent in global pollution and unless the inherent risks of operating electric vehicles are taken into account, and properly mitigated, by manufacturers,  regulators, operators and politicians there will a nasty disaster in a city near you soon. How many warnings do we need?

[Ron Gray]

33 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

Changing to an electric vehicle does not make any sense to me

Just leave it at that without adding anything else.

[FlyinFlynn]

So how many warnings do you need?

 

This bloke has it right.

 

The more EV supporters deny there is a huge potential problem and bury their collective heads in the sand the greater the wake up call will be. 

[Cuban8]

On 29/09/2023 at 09:20, FlyinFlynn said:

The difference being though that a fireman can stand next to the petrol car and extinguish the flames while the ev is left to burn with everyone kept well upwind. It is only a matter of time before a department store or a block of flats has an EV fire in the parking area and serious casualties ensue from the toxic gasses emitted, the dutch oven got away without the mass casualties, we won't be that lucky forever.

 

" Presumably, this is due to EV makers improving fire suppressing designs in newer models"  

 

What fire suppressing design is that then? are 'newer models' supplied with a 500 gallon water reservoir on the roof or a halon suppression kit fitted in the cabin? Perhaps they have invented aluminium that doesn't burn at 500 degrees C.

Funny how many of us are paranoid over Lipos used in models and the potential for fires (one of my club mates lost his workshop due to a lipo fire) - worrying about fire supression, ammo boxes, lipo bags......don't do this or that with them etc etc etc - yet EVs do present a significant fire risk but this isn't really getting the attention or concern that it deserves. The position "oh well, IC cars catch fire as well, so we needn't worry" is not helpful.

Yes, they do indeed and we've probably witnessed a car fire or two in the past. My worry would be the nature of EV fires and the higher risk of total destruction of an EV when simply parked up and caused out of the blue by a battery fault. I'm sure an IC car with a fuel leak could catch fire when parked and there's bound to be examples on YouTube.

The trouble is, EVs can combust without warning and have done so when in storage and when being shipped and maybe even worse, when parked up in a garage or carpark. I very much doubt if anyone would walk away from their IC car after parking up if it was dripping fuel or merely smelling of fuel without investigating.

I noticed a slight smell of diesel from the engine of my Mondeo just after I took delivery of it. No way could you not notice it and it was one of the injector unions weeping very slightly - obvious and easily fixed in a moment before it might have developed into a more serious problem with a hot engine on a fast motorway. Whether EV or IC fire is a risk and needs to be managed in the most effective manner.

 

[Don Fry]

Small point IDD, sodium batteries have been coming in the next few years for as long as I can remember.

 

Flyin, don’t need a lecture from a random Ossy thank you. Prefer someone with some background and track record.

[Ron Gray]

Well said Don!

[Ron Gray]

@Cuban8you don’t need leaking fuel to cause an IC fire.

[Tim Kearsley]

33 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Small point IDD, sodium batteries have been coming in the next few years for as long as I can remember.

 

Flyin, don’t need a lecture from a random Ossy thank you. Prefer someone with some background and track record.

😆

[Tim Kearsley]

It's odd, and I've noticed this with lots of things, there seems to be a large body of people who have decided they don't like the whole idea of electric vehicles and so go to a lot of effort to find problems and counter any positive viewpoint with, often baseless, negative arguments.  As idd said, there is a huge section of the right-wing press which go to great lengths to publicise the negative aspects of EV ownership as well as the mega-powerful fossil fuel industry.

However, the momentum is there, and the move to electric-powered cars is unstoppable. IC vehicles will become more and more expensive to run.  Don't be fooled by the government's apparent back-tracking - that's just a feeble attempt to try and get the public on-side before the next election.  They'll be gone in a year. 

[Cuban8]

36 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

@Cuban8you don’t need leaking fuel to cause an IC fire.

No of course not, but I was thinking more about the fire risk from the fuel source alone i.e. traction battery v petrol/diesel.  Poor/faulty wiring - overheating brakes - manufacturing and maintenance faults, crash damage etc. Rare, but  all have their part to play.

[Outrunner]

The world is full of Luddites, just ignore them.

[IDD15]

3 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Small point IDD, sodium batteries have been coming in the next few years for as long as I can remember.

 

Looks like they may be here. But personally I would not be putting a deposit down on one just yet, when they’ve got a few million miles on them in the wild perhaps…😉

 

JAC Sodium Battery EV.

 

Cheers

idd

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, IDD15 said:

Looks like they may be here. But personally I would not be putting a deposit down on one just yet, when they’ve got a few million miles on them in the wild perhaps…😉

 

JAC Sodium Battery EV.

 

Cheers

idd

That’s interesting IDD, seems they are round the corner, battery factories don’t get built on a whim and a promise, the money men like them. But as you say, let someone else try it out on the street.
That is actually my main gripe about EVs, (apart from subsidising rich people to drive electric guzzlers) is I havn’t yet seen one that gives me the feeling I got from Fords in the 60/70s, arrrr, this is right, escort, cortina, transit el al.