Electric Cars.

[Learner]

5 hours ago, MattyB said:

 

It is perfectly straightforward if you are prepared to a small amount of research - 10 seconds on Google would have got you any number of answers that are extremely comprehensive from sites dedicated to EVs (here's a good example). Instead you chose to ask the question of some well meaning EV owners on a RC flying forum, then criticised them because their answers didn't exactly align in every respect. However, Ron is absolutely right - there is nothing inaccurate about any of the posts on this page, it's just that different cars will charge at different rates off a granny plug.

 

This rather reminds me of those who who have used IC power in their models and complain that electric is "too complicated" to  understand. In reality there are only a small number of variables you have to understand to select an appropriate electric powertrain, and far, far fewer problems that would prevent it from running once it's been installed in comparison to IC. However, if you have run IC all your life and already understand the variables and techniques needed to run them effectively (carb setup, tank position, fuel type, cooling setup, mounting type, silencer setup, tank plumbing, starting technique...) then learning something new and different will seem like a faff when you could set up and operate a new IC model in your sleep. The same is true in the opposite direction - it would be far harder for me to acquire all the learning to kit out a new IC model for the first time than it would to install an electric powertrain, as I already know everything I need to do the latter.

 

The key to transitioning in either direction is accepting that a) some of your previous knowledge will no longer be applicable, and b) that you'll have to do a small amount of research and learn something new in order to be successful. There is lots of research out there that most people find a) pretty difficult to accept, especially where the established knowledge is long held (like in the case of fueling and operating an ICE vehicle). That's not really an issue though in thie case - if moving from ICE to an EV or PHEViisn't for you right now, then don't bother - no-one is forcing you to go EV. Just don't criticise those who want to maximise the potential of this technology to minimise costs, maximise efficiency and reduce carbon use - that is their choice to do so.

 

Thank you for that link, very informative without going to deep unlike most I've found. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Learner

[Ron Gray]

19 minutes ago, Gary Manuel said:

That's the beauty of Intelligent Octopus.

Yes! I’m assuming that, whilst it boost charges the EV through the Zappi, the Zappi is just the conduit to the EV and IOGo doesn’t send a command to the Zappi to boost charge it just boost charges (if that makes sense).

 

As long as I continue to use IOGo to schedule charge it looks like I don’t need to worry about house battery drain. Next I must try the IOGo manual boost to see what happens then.

 

All good fun and a learning experience for me.

[Gary Manuel]

3 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

Yes! I’m assuming that, whilst it boost charges the EV through the Zappi, the Zappi is just the conduit to the EV and IOGo doesn’t send a command to the Zappi to boost charge it just boost charges (if that makes sense).

 

As long as I continue to use IOGo to schedule charge it looks like I don’t need to worry about house battery drain. Next I must try the IOGo manual boost to see what happens then.

 

All good fun and a learning experience for me.

Just writing an automation to automatically charge the batteries up just before the forthcoming OctoPlus Saving Sessions begin, and then fully discharge during the session for a payback of around £2.25 per kWh. Happy to do my bit to prop up the national grid when the supply can't cope .... and get paid in return. (Not directly EV related but another benefit of the equipment).

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Is that figure correct?  £2.25 per kWh sounds like your supplier is paying you a massive amount as they don't charge a normal user more than 1/8 of that!

[Tim Kearsley]

2 hours ago, Gary Manuel said:

Just writing an automation to automatically charge the batteries up just before the forthcoming OctoPlus Saving Sessions begin, and then fully discharge during the session for a payback of around £2.25 per kWh. Happy to do my bit to prop up the national grid when the supply can't cope .... and get paid in return. (Not directly EV related but another benefit of the equipment).

How can £2.25 per kWh possibly be correct?

[Engine Doctor]

Reading all the posts re charging points/stations or the lack of them  ; isnt the main problem in the UK the lack of our generating capacity to power them . The Uk is, due to lack of investment by ALL governments for decades woefully lacking in generating power for general consumption let alone EV charging . Now with the unrealist push for the so called net Zero they are even further behind . What company in their tight mind would build an all electric charging station with means of powering it. Fix that and things may improve although the time taken to charge is still the biggest hurdle. 

Things cant be that rosey for the EV markets today as nearly all of the articless on the Google home page are pushing the EV sector without a word of the downside of using one .

[Frank Skilbeck]

ED if you look at UK power consumption it typically peaks at over 35GW during the day and drops to below 25GW at night for around 6 hrs, so thats 60GWh headroom every night, so around 180,000,000 to 240,000,000 miles of additional range every night above the circa 1.4 million electric vehicles on the road at the moment.

But yes more generating capacity is required but it's not as great as many say it will be and it's over the next 15 years, by which time EV car owners will probably be paid to feedback in times of peak demand.

 

But heat pumps will also add a demand too.

 

Needs some joined up thinking from the government, so I do share some of your scepticism. 

 

Plenty of negative articles on EVs on the internet.

[MattyB]

15 hours ago, Gary Manuel said:

Just writing an automation to automatically charge the batteries up just before the forthcoming OctoPlus Saving Sessions begin, and then fully discharge during the session for a payback of around £2.25 per kWh. Happy to do my bit to prop up the national grid when the supply can't cope .... and get paid in return. (Not directly EV related but another benefit of the equipment).

 

14 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Is that figure correct?  £2.25 per kWh sounds like your supplier is paying you a massive amount as they don't charge a normal user more than 1/8 of that!

 

12 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

How can £2.25 per kWh possibly be correct?

 

The savings events are a new experiment from National Grid (who have seemingly rebranded as ESO, or Electricity System Operator). In these hort events carried out at peak times they signifcantly incentivise smart meter owners who opt in to save power against their current baseline.

 

More info in the links below ...

• The Natiional Grid (ESO’s) Demand Flexibility Service
• News story about the successful tests of the DFS events in 2022
• Octopus savings sessions - overview
• Octopus savings sessions - FAQs

 

@Gary Manuel, a QQ... I can't find anything online that says you will be paid incentivised rates for export during these events, only for avoiding normal usage against an established baseline. Here are the Octopus T&C for savings events - they don't mention anything about export. Do you have a link online that explains that?

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

Hang on - The T&Cs do mention export, apologies. It looks like there is no additional incentivisation for export during these savings events, which actually makes sense otherwise those with home batteries would all do what you were suggesting which would create the opposite effect to what they are going for jsut before the event...

 

"17. Customers on electricity export tariffs will be credited on their reduction in import and not export, in line with National Grid ESO Demand Flexibility Service specifications."

 

There is also this clause which is probably to enable them to handle any "gaming" of the system via means they haven't yet thought of...

 

"If you are one of our Smart Tariff customers or are part of any of our Smart Meter trials, we reserve the right to remove you from the Service at any point."

 

I guess you can hold fire on your HA automation @Gary Manuel! 

Edited October 26, 2023 by MattyB

[Gary Manuel]

16 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Is that figure correct?  £2.25 per kWh sounds like your supplier is paying you a massive amount as they don't charge a normal user more than 1/8 of that!

 

Yes it is correct. I based it on what was paid during last years events. £2.25 was actually the minimum rate. The maximum was £4.
These are special incentives that the National Grid fund via most of the electric companies over winter. They need to do this because the grid cannot cover the demand at peak times. 

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Hang on - The T&Cs do mention export, apologies. It looks like there is no additional incentivisation for export during these savings events, which actually makes sense otherwise those with home batteries would all do what you were suggesting which would create the opposite effect to what they are going for jsut before the event...

 

"17. Customers on electricity export tariffs will be credited on their reduction in import and not export, in line with National Grid ESO Demand Flexibility Service specifications."

 

There is also this clause which is probably to enable them to handle any "gaming" of the system via means they haven't yet thought of...

 

"If you are one of our Smart Tariff customers or are part of any of our Smart Meter trials, we reserve the right to remove you from the Service at any point."

 

I guess you can hold fire on your HA automation @Gary Manuel! 

 

I don't know where you got that from Matty, but it's wrong. Lot's of duff info on the internet and you may have found a copy of last years T&Cs, which didn't include export. This years does. These are extract from the current T&C's plus a FAQ asking the direct question about the inclusion of export during the saving sessions. HA Automation finished and good to go!

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Gary Manuel

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Gary Manuel said:

I don't know where you got that from Matty, but it's wrong. Lot's of duff info on the internet and you may have found a copy of last years T&Cs, which didn't include export. This years does. These are extract from the current T&C's plus a FAQ asking the direct question about the inclusion of export during the saving sessions. HA Automation finished and good to go!

 

 

Good stuff, thanks for posting that. I have logged back into the Octopus site, and have found the content that correlates to the second of yourpics on the FAQ page here: https://octopus.energy/blog/saving-sessions-faqs/

 

However, whilst I am not doubting that you are correct, but there is clearly something screwy going on with the T&Cs links they are using on some of their website pages. If I log into my account, click on Octoplus rewards, then Savings session page, I get to a page with the URL https://octopus.energy/dashboard/new/accounts/[AccNoGoesHere]/saving-sessions (I remoived my account number for security reasons). If I scroll down that page, I get to the following:

 

 

Click on the T&Cs link and I end up here - https://octopus.energy/saving-sessions-terms-conditions/ - which as you say looks like it is the old 2022/23 T&Cs. I can't find the T&Cs you have screenshotted above anywhere on their site - it's baffling! Can you post up a direct link to see if I can get to them? Thanks.

 

PS - Can you share your Home Assistant automation so I can adapt it, assuming they ever let us participate in savings sessions? At the moment the website is telling me I can't despite meeting all the criteria on smart meter readings etc).  

[Gary Manuel]

5 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

Good stuff, thanks for posting that. I have logged back into the Octopus site, and have found the content that correlates to the second of yourpics on the FAQ page here: https://octopus.energy/blog/saving-sessions-faqs/

 

However, whilst I am not doubting that you are correct, but there is clearly something screwy going on with the T&Cs links they are using on some of their website pages. If I log into my account, click on Octoplus rewards, then Savings session page, I get to a page with the URL https://octopus.energy/dashboard/new/accounts/[AccNoGoesHere]/saving-sessions (I remoived my account number for security reasons). If I scroll down that page, I get to the following:

 

 

Click on the T&Cs link and I end up here - https://octopus.energy/saving-sessions-terms-conditions/ - which as you say looks like it is the old 2022/23 T&Cs. I can't find the T&Cs you have screenshotted above anywhere on their site - it's baffling! Can you post up a direct link to see if I can get to them? Thanks.

 

PS - Can you share your Home Assistant automation so I can adapt it, assuming they ever let us participate in savings sessions? At the moment the website is telling me I can't despite meeting all the criteria on smart meter readings etc).  

Octopus website is still evolving and some of the links need updating. The Q&A screenshot I posted earlier is hot off the press. It said the opposite about export until a few days ago but was updated to reflect this years T&Cs due to lots of people pointing out that they were contradictory.

I'll try to send you the automation but it will need some work as it is written for dual inverters (everything done twice) and uses custom sensors and helpers. I'll send the sensor data too if I can pm it to you.

[MattyB]

2 minutes ago, Gary Manuel said:

Octopus website is still evolving and some of the links need updating. The Q&A screenshot I posted earlier is hot off the press. It said the opposite about export until a few days ago but was updated to reflect this years T&Cs due to lots of people pointing out that they were contradictory.

I'll try to send you the automation but it will need some work as it is written for dual inverters (everything done twice) and uses custom sensors and helpers. I'll send the sensor data too if I can pm it to you.

 

Thank you, that is very helpful. PM sent! 🙂

 

[IDD15]

Thought the latest incarnation of a hybrid from Mazda might be of interest.

 

Mazda mx 30

 

Theoretically I suppose it should be a bit simpler, lighter, quieter and smoother than your "typical" hybrid with this novel drive arrangement. I've always thought the Wankel rotary engine a really neat piece of tech, and always fancied getting an OS one. However, given I think Mazda are the only manufacturer to use them in cars (Rx7?)  I'm guessing they're not easy things to manufacture and keep running reliably?

 

Cheers

idd

[Frank Skilbeck]

53 minutes ago, IDD15 said:

Thought the latest incarnation of a hybrid from Mazda might be of interest.

 

Mazda mx 30

 

Theoretically I suppose it should be a bit simpler, lighter, quieter and smoother than your "typical" hybrid with this novel drive arrangement. I've always thought the Wankel rotary engine a really neat piece of tech, and always fancied getting an OS one. However, given I think Mazda are the only manufacturer to use them in cars (Rx7?)  I'm guessing they're not easy things to manufacture and keep running reliably?

 

Cheers

idd

The rotary engine while compact and smooth, was always a bit of a fuel guzzler, early engines could suffer from tip wear but Mazda seemed to crack that a few years back. Mazda claim using the engine as a generator allows it to be run at it's most efficient.

 

The range extender option was offered by BMW in the I3 using a modified motorcycle engine, but was dropped in later models,  BMW noted at the time that owners often went for a BEV when they changed.

[John Lee]

I've had one of the MX-30 R-EV's launch editions ('Edition R') on order since the beginning of the year which should be delivered in the next couple of weeks, they had their UK Press Launch last week. It will replace my Kia Soul EV.

 

I accept that the rotary will not be as efficient as an Atkinson cycle ICE used in many PHEV's but as I guess 95% of my driving will be on pure EV it is not a big factor in the overall running costs. I ran a Prius PHEV for 3 years that averaged 191mpg which shows the minimal ICE use with my driving habits.

 

The big appeal of the Mazda to me is the fact that it always drives as an EV with the performance, quietness, ease of driving and connectivity I have come used to. 

 

[Cuban8]

20 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

The rotary engine while compact and smooth, was always a bit of a fuel guzzler, early engines could suffer from tip wear but Mazda seemed to crack that a few years back. Mazda claim using the engine as a generator allows it to be run at it's most efficient.

 

The range extender option was offered by BMW in the I3 using a modified motorcycle engine, but was dropped in later models,  BMW noted at the time that owners often went for a BEV when they changed.

Back in the 70s a friend had a Suzuki RE5 rotary engined motorbike and a ponderous beast it really was. Treated to several rides on the pillion which I have to say was comfortable when  cruising but otherwise very uninspiring. 

The bike finally succumbed to tip seal failure after sitting idle without being run for several months while waiting for a transmission part. A very expensive repair in total.

[Tim C]

I received an SOS call from my daughter who was locked in her Kia Niro EV with her 2 Year old.   The aux battery had died, it had run down , reason unknown and powering up the computer and car had caused the voltage to drop off completely and everything powers off.  Nothing works, doors and windows cannot be opened.

 

the ,fix, from experience is to jump the aux battery so the voltage is sufficient to fire up the computer, once the car is in on mode the main battery will charge the aux battery and you can then open the doors etc, all a bit scary.

 

 I measured the voltage on the aux battery before the jump and it was 8.6v , very dead! Once activated it receives 14.8v charge voltage.  Lucky on the Kia the aux battery is easily accessible on at least there someone in the car to operate the bonnet release.

[J D 8]

So if one was in a crash that disabled the aux battery/connection you would not be able to get out or for anyone outside to open the door?

[Tim Kearsley]

I don't know the Kia Niro specifically but I would be astonished if there wasn't a manual door release.  It would be madness to have the doors only able to be opened electrically. 

[Tim C]

I am not familiar enough with the Niro to know.  However the doors did not work inside or out, once power was restored there was a click as the doors released and access was restored.

 

 

[IDD15]

1 hour ago, J D 8 said:

So if one was in a crash that disabled the aux battery/connection you would not be able to get out or for anyone outside to open the door?

According to the Kia manual the doors would automatically unlock in the event of a crash when the airbags deploy. 
 

In terms of escape with a failure in the door locking mechanism you have to climb into the boot space and use the manual release in the tailgate! Not exactly convenient but the safety standards body must think it OK, I guess…

I vaguely remember there being an issue with some Kia and Hyundai models discharging their 12v batteries, but there has since been a fix applied. Might be worth having a word with the dealership and checking this out on this car.

 

Weirdly on my Born the customer has to turn on a 12V battery protection mode, it is not a default setting! Even more weird is that it is turned on using the phone app and not using a setting in the car infotainment system. Absolutely bonkers…

 

HTH

idd

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Hammer in glove box. 😉

[IDD15]

More info on the BMS update for Kia/Hyundai.

Hyundai BMS update.

 

HTH

idd

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Fourteen minutes of waffle to say he knows nothing about the BMS and has no idea how to interpret the output of his add on monitor but the problem he had just the once seems to have gone away since the dealer performed a firmware upgrade…

 

Some people just like the sound of their own voice!