Re: Death of IC

[Nightflyer]

I have to admit having read the recent letters or articles within the magazine about how electric powered flight might now lead to the death of i.c. power is a thought provoking subject.

It shows how much model flying has changed in the last 10-15 years when for the previous 50 years or so modellers strived at first to get suitable power to get their creations airborne, and how i.c. engine performance and reliability have evolved.

It must be said though that electric power has taken many years to evolve and while electric power has been trialled almost as long as i.c has been around. It has only been since the late 70's that it started to grow. Only as cell and motor technology leap-frogged with Lipo and brushless motors has it attracted new modellers, and lured experienced i.c flyers.

There is growing pressure on sites over noise, environmental concerns and a host of other reasons, but i.c. will still exist. After all look at the growth in model jet engines. Electric will become more prevalent as model manufacturers promote the technology, unless something dramatic happens politically and legislatively, that makes i.c. impractical or illegal.

I for one as an i.c. power modeller who was keen to experiment with electric flight in the 80's and 90's and promote it within my club, still see a world where both will exist. Although these days my club promotes only electric flight as a consequence of issues relating to perceived 'noisy model aircraft'. Funnily enough we have had no issues since and that is some 14 years or so!

[Jon H]

From my point of view i see it that anything that was once powered by a 35 two stroke or smaller is now almost exclusively electric, and anything above about 30cc is almost exclusively petrol. This leaves glow sitting in the middle.

In terms of price/performance i dont think electric can match engines at larger sizes at this point.

I think the main points that count against i/c in the minds of many are:

Reliability
simplicity
cleanliness
Noise.

The issue is that any power system is reliable if used correctly and out of date stories of engines that would always die on you (ehem...MDS) do nothing other than mislead. Most modern engines are extremely reliable when used correctly.

The simplicity of electric is also over sold. Yes engines require tuning which is a learning curve, but equally KV rating, current draw, cell count and propeller selection are all extremely important in electric flight and take just as much experience and practice to get right.

I cant argue too much about cleanliness, electric is 100% clean where as even a petrol engine has some oil in it. In glow engines residue can be reduced significantly by using a modern fuel and leave the days of 20% castor in the past where they belong. No matter what you do though engines will leave some oil on the model, even if you only wipe it twice a year you still have to wipe it!

Noise is again subjective. An EDF or a zagi is far more irritating than a large 4 stroke puttering about even if the noise meter says its quieter. Petrol engines with their useless standard exhausts are likely to be the biggest issue and many good canister options are available to control them. Propeller selection is also very important.

I also think that the unsilenced engines of yesteryear have given a false impression in the minds of many about how much noise modern engines actually make.

Irrespective of any of the above i still firmly believe that all types of powerplant have a place in the hobby and will do for many years to come.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 31/01/2018 13:34:30:

From my point of view i see it that anything that was once powered by a 35 two stroke or smaller is now almost exclusively electric, and anything above about 30cc is almost exclusively petrol. This leaves glow sitting in the middle.

Well, that may be a reassuring view for some - but I feel it's far from accurate! Electric power is by no means confined to sub 35 two-stroke territory! Most of my electric powered models are in the 60 two-stroke-90 four stroke class - all are perfectly well, relaiably and practically powered, entirely by electric! The idea that 35 two two stroke to 30cc petrol is "glow terriritory" is vastly out of date I'm afraid! I don't say this from any sort of "pro-electric" evangelism - but simply as a matter of technical fact!

But I would agree on your final point - I too believe that different power sources will be with us for the foreseeable future. This is a hobby, people take decisions within the hobby for fun and pleasure, not always for exclusively practical reasons! So some will continue with glow, some will embrace petrol, some will pursue the every growing electric power. Many will follow multiple sources of power. And frankly, in my view, long may that diversity continue! But lets's not erect artificial boundarys and pretend that certain regimes "belong" to, or are best served by, certain power sources - they don't and they aren't exclusively!

BEB

[Nigel R]

Jon says it all in my opinion.

For me, I love glow, in particular the 60 2str / 90 4str size is a sweet spot.

But.

Practical considerations dictate that for now I am flying electric almost exclusively. If I had longer at the field I would fly glow. But I don't and I need to make the most of the time I get at the field. I find with electric I actually get more flying time if I have enough lipos ready charged.

Electric does offer an easier route into the hobby for novices. A prerolled drive train in an RTF takes no skill to set up - all that is done before you fly it.

BEB,

At 60 class I would contest that electric is as cheap or as good. That's knocking on the door of serious investment in charging hardware and batteries. The stored energy in lipos and the high current setups concern me as well, having worked with some big lipos the way they are treated by the average modeller is a bit worrying.

At 20 class, a basic 4 button mains powered clone charger covers my needs, a stack of enough batteries to fly a whole session is not expensive, motors are sub £20, etc etc.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

In what way "not as good"? Conversions I have done show that weight for for weight there is nothing in it for power - see my Chipmunk conversion on here for example. And I have in other places done the cost analysis of one-off charger and long term battery purchase (at say 6s) versus continuous ic fuel purcase etc. again I can find there is no significant cost difference over the lifetime of a system. True, much bigger than 60 2-stroke or 90 4-stroke, when you have to start looking at 8s batteries etc, and things start to move away from electric - for the present . But at the "club-size" 60-model (as we used to call it) - I see no evidence that that is so I'm afraid.

BEB

[Nigel R]

I didn't define "as good" and probably should have. I hinted why where I mention stored energy and high current.

I'm of the opinion that most people pay a good amount of respect a gallon of flammable liquid, but the same respect is not afforded to batteries.

You're clearly a sensible guy and serious about the hobby, the fact that you've actively compared the two says you're interested and on top of it, you probably have a good, safe charging environment, etc etc. It's too easy for some to be complacent with the safety aspects.

[Jon H]

I was talking in general terms BEB. You dont tend to see glow over 30cc or under a 30/35 two stroke. Under 30/35 2 stroke its almost exclusively electric as its usually better that way, and above 30cc its almost exclusively petrol so glow has to sit in the middle almost by default.

The edges of all of the categories are very fuzzy and there are exceptions. we have totally ignored the devout diesel burners which mostly hover around .5-3cc.

Its not about setting boundaries as anyone who says something is totally exclusive is a fool. Which is why i used 'almost' a great many times!

I was just trying to describe the general trends

[Don Fry]

Yea, Nigel and BEB, are right in their apposing views. They both identify the crossover territory where a glo motor operator has to accept electric is easier, and do a learning curve, and an electric operator has to accept glo is easier and do a learning curve. Or not do a learning curve and argue yer corner for ever.

[Peter Miller]

Oh Dear God....Here we go again.

[PatMc]

Posted by Nigel R on 31/01/2018 14:47:18:

I'm of the opinion that most people pay a good amount of respect a gallon of flammable liquid, but the same respect is not afforded to batteries.

My opinion is that the those people who respect the potential hazard of flammable liquid will also respect the potential hazard of batteries. And those that don't have that respect for one power source are just as careless with the other.

I.E. it's the individuals users not the power source that provide the hazard.

[Bob Cotsford]

I see no evidence of glow powered models dying off at my club, though as has been noted they predominate in the .40-1.20 size. We have few petrol powered models as they don't easily get through our noise tests so it's pretty much either glow or electric. Most electrics are 2, 3 or 4 cell with the odd 10 cell heli thrown in for good measure. I doubt if those would pass the noise test if they could be tested in any meaningfull way!

I've dabbled with 60-90 size electrics - an E-Flite Splendor, Carbon-Z Cub and a Curare. I have to say that I'm disappointed with them on the whole, not in terms of outright performance but certainly with regard to duration. At 6 or 7 minutes I'm just getting into my stride but all three of these are running out of capacity at this point. I could pootle about for 10 minutes and sometimes that's ok, but I can do that with glow power too, landing with 1/2 a tank left. With glow I have the option of ripping the snot out of them for 12 minutes and still having enough fuel for a go-around.

I do know of a couple of silent flight clubs locally, but then they have been silent flight for two or three decades.

[Cuban8]

I like the sound of a four stroke in scale models and equally, I like the convenience of electric for aerobatic or sport models. Not a dogmatic approach and there is a degree of cross over between the two. I like the choice, and will determine whether a new model is electric or four stroke glow depending on how I'll be using the model.

[Keith Berriman]

What about the poor power stations, solar panels and wind farms, the future with electric vehicles

I have minimised my electric fleet so as to fly on 3S 2200 batteries as the cost of 4S upwards is frightening and being a Yorkshire man with deep pockets and short arms lets enjoy our hobby as best we can afford. I still prefer IC for power on demand for 10 to 15 mins fly time

[Chris Walby]

Yep go we go again! So IMHO and I can't talk as I have only been in the hobby 4 years!

Time to assemble aircraft same with IC and electric

Time to clean after a winters flying the same with all of that mud splattered on the underside

Time to inspect while cleaning an advantage with IC as you spot the little things you might not putting the electric away

Number of dead sticks, about the same

Performance with suitable power plant, the same

Low pass with IC 4 stroke - priceless in my book as the sound matchs the model (as best it can)

Noise will always be an issue, but as long as we all act responsibly, get in front of legislation and do our bit the complaints will be unfounded and we can carry on.

Right ho tin hat on!

[Wilco Wingco]

Maybe if this magazine published more free plans for I.C. it would encourage the newer flyers to have a go. I know that in this generation of instant everything I.C. does demand a certain amount of "learning" and patience. But the sound of a 4 stroke powered war bird doing a low pass along the strip followed by a roll out is hard to beat or why would they sell the kit to imitate the "noise" ??

[MattyB]

I do think 2S glow will die out in the next 10-15 years due to noise, a lack of takeup amongst newcomers and those passionate about it slowly exiting the hobby. Everything else though - electric, 4 stroke glow and petrol - I would suggest has a decent future though, and I can see benefits for all in different types of models. Vive la difference!

[Tim Flyer]

Most regular flyers at my club fly both electric and glow/petrol. A few “converted” to just electric and petrol but have now started to use glow again . We have two electric purists who do not fly any IC and are happy and enjoy their chosen power source and fly good planes very well. Noise isn’t an issue at my club although I still moan at a clubmate with his “rowdy” DLE 55 which could be easily silenced😊 if I could only get him to agree and phone just engines! I admit to being a biased IC enthusiast and only occasionally fly electric foamies when there is nothing else available. Otherwise all my models have IC engines either 2s or 4s. I do think both 2s and 4s glow engines still have a good niche, despite the popularity of petrol in large scale models. If I was going to build s 50 cc plane it would most likely be petrol I think,

[malcolm woodcock 1]

Having spent many a frustrating hour in winter trying to get a 2.5cc diesel to start for my control line models back in the early '60s, I'm a confirmed electric flyer.

[Rocker]

No electric motor can come close to a good Laser engine I have watched a fairly big spitfire flown with electric power flown along side a P47 Thunderbolt of ruffly the same size with a 4 stroke glow engine No comparison The Thunderbolt sounded great but the poor spitfire just whisper along OK I give it in if you are worried about how many DB your model produces but the Thunderbolt was under 82 DB and sounded great.Plus the spitfire had to land after 7 minutes due to lack of battery power but the Thunderbolt stay up for over 10 minutes

[The Wright Stuff]

Ultimately, personal preferences for electric or IC in various sizes are only going to be possible while the support is large enough for the suppliers to support it. If demand falls, it'll die. Opinions will be in vain. Of course, you could continue to use existing equipment as long as it worked, but ultimately, the market will decide.

I could argue all day about how passionate I am for watching films on Betamax, and how much I prefer it to VHS, DVDs or streaming. I could argue that it's my choice: my personal preference.

But I suspect I'd be pretty limited in what I could watch. Star Wars VIII or Dunkirk on Betamax, anyone?

[Jon Laughton]

Yes personal preferences are the rule here: new entrants to our sport/hobby can find it easier with smaller electrical set ups as long as they get experienced help but then you need that for a smaller ic engine in a first model. In our club there seems to be a small retrenchment with more people flying ic than in recent years but still a very healthy balance between the two types of powertrain.

Personally I accept the unemotional arguments for / against both power trains but I do much prefer ic and find myself flying my ic models more and more at the expense of the electrical models......I guess it takes all sorts! The more instant acceleration that one can get from an electrical set up seems to be less 'scale' and can be more disconcerting / take me by surprise even now as an experienced flyer. If the weather has been very wet and it is cold I will tend towards electrical models even foamies as they are less heavy on sodden ground so I wait for better weather and ground conditions with anticipation.

Edited By Jon Laughton on 31/01/2018 18:04:11

[John Stainforth]

Yes, here we go again, but with a provocative heading such as "Death of IC", I think it is deserved.

It's great that we have all types of power plants in our hobby. Personally, I have a few electric planes but I find the ic ones more interesting and I find charging batteries more of a hassle (for very limited flying time) than filling tanks with glow fuel and cleaning models. I also find the articles in the magazines on electric ARTF and RTF foamies rather dull.

I would be very surprised if 2S glow dies out completely - engines such as the OS46AX and 55AX are just too good in times of reliability and power to weight ratio for that to happen. I much prefer the sound of 4S glow, though. I haven't gone to petrol yet, mainly because I don't like the smell of petrol. I have belonged to five clubs and I have seen a slight tendency for a blind eye to be turned to the very raucous noise of large petrol powered planes (often because the people flying these are senior members of their clubs) and a disproportionate fuss being made over quieter glow engines

If I was forced to fly electric planes only, that would seriously diminish my interest in the hobby. Vivat internum combustione!

[Jon Laughton]

Good commentary John - I agree completely!

[Dave Hopkin]

Is IC doomed? Probably but not for a long time yet! Reasons

a) Its a fossil fuel based so running costs will only increase over time faster than electricity will

b) Its essentially a static technology very little R&D money is invested in IC these days compared with the billions being invested in battery technology - in time that will filter down to us flyers and power/weight ratios of electric sets ups will get better and better and at some stage offer the same endurance as IC

c) The vast majority of new blood to the hobby comes in now on electric power, yes a proportion will convert/dabble in IC but I suspect the majority wont

[Jon Laughton]

Hey Hoppy! Long time no see....and you know you really want that two stroke model!