Gas engineers

[fly boy3]

Hi all, I have a heating boiler of 25year plus. (Thorn Emi Olympic 30/50B). When the wind blows pilot light out perhaps once may be twice a year, I am unable to light it again using the appropriate and safe method. My plumber has to visit to get it lit. He always re minds me I should get a new boiler, I do not agree, as boiler is fine bar the manual ignition system. Would there possibly be spares still out there, or an alternative. Main reason for not wanting to spend £2000 + on a new boiler is my age lol. Cheers ps my boiler is older than my plumber

Edited By fly boy3 on 04/11/2019 15:12:32

[Jason-I]

If your boiler is that old, it is likely only 60% efficient at best. Modern boilers are more like 90% efficient. The savings this will make on your gas bill are significant and will help offset the replacement cost. You may also qualify for an ECO grant towards the cost.....

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Are you a Scot or a Yorkshireman FB3 ?

All I can suggest, is try an older plumber.

[Barryorbik]

We live in an all electric powered house and theoretically all the energy goes in the storage heating system but I am always confused about the amount of steam coming out of the vents of gas powered systems. Surely that steam contains heat that could be recouped via a condenser system and fed back into the system to improve its efficiency?

Barry

[Simon Chaddock]

Barry

There is a difference in energy terms between 'steam' and 'condensation'. What you see in a gas CH exhaust is the condensation created when the slightly warm moist air (it has already been through a heat exchanger) hits the cooler atmosphere.

Being an all electric house simply means you don't see the waste energy that all energy generating systems produce.

fb3

When I moved into my current house it had a 'condemned' 30 year gas CH boiler which had a 'sensitive' pilot tight cut out (it would cut out randomly and be tricky to reset). It nevertheless it ran on for several years before it cut out permanently!

Now replaced a year ago by a modern much smaller condensing unit (it did not £2000+ after hunting round!). Yes it likely uses the same amount of gas but the house can now maintain 20 C regardless and the hot water is properly hot.

Edited By Simon Chaddock on 04/11/2019 17:15:26

[Bob Cotsford]

I spent a frustrating few years trying to keep my old Ferolli 77 going thinking that as it was essentially sound with just a few odds and ends needing replacing. Most spares are readily available via e-bay or just a google search but after a few 'glitches' in cold weather and a steady string of minor component failures I bit the bullet and had a new Bosch condensing unit fitted and a radiator flush. Ferolli ~ 70% efficient, Worcester-Bosch was checked as being high 90s. My gas bills dropped by about 30%, the house is more comfortable in winter, hotwater flow is better and I haven't had to touch the controls in three years. The new boiler has a 10 year warranty - long enough to see me out in this house, and if/when I come to sell it's one more lus point for potential buyers.

I'm not saying it will pay for itself in pure cash savings, but it was worhwhile just for the peace of mind, reliability and comfort.

I have no idea why it vents steam, all I can say is that it is relatively cheap to run, and with a backup of a gas fire I don't worry about power cuts

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Simon Chaddock on 04/11/2019 17:12:21:

Barry

There is a difference in energy terms between 'steam' and 'condensation'. What you see in a gas CH exhaust is the condensation created when the slightly warm moist air (it has already been through a heat exchanger) hits the cooler atmosphere.

Edited By Simon Chaddock on 04/11/2019 17:15:26

Plus for ever methane molecule burnt you get 1 CO2 and 2 H2O Molecules, so the exhaust gas is wetter than the intake air, the fact it is condensing shows it has been cooled to below it's dew point.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I can hear my Dad verbally slapping you lot - he would always take delight in making the point that steam is a colourless gas and what we see is water vapour when the steam condenses...

[Martin McIntosh]

I now live in my 3rd house with a Baxi back boiler, (one was my parents` former house). It had to go in my second house but only because a wanted rid of the storage tanks in order to build a staircase to the loft. I installed a Ferolli combi one and my gas bill immediately doubled, but this may have been due to the (ex) Mrs. having unlimited hot water available! Most houses in my area have had these replaced at £3000+ and on enquiring about a replacement igniter unit was told that I stood no chance, but a quick google got one plus anything else I may need for it.

[Former Member]

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[Peter Miller]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 04/11/2019 20:49:45:

Living out in the sticks I long ago got used to bathing in in semi cold water heated by a coal fire. Now a gas main has been laid outside my house, so for less than a thousand pound I can have gas on tap. This price for gas up to the meter, no indoor piping, appliances etc.

A few thousand more for the boiler and ancillary fittings. Aged 80 is it worth it?

I live in a 1786 cottage. I have an immersion heater for hot water and a calor gas stove in every room which I can put on when I go into the room and turn off when leave.(No gas main within 3/4 mile!) Approximate annual cost of gas cylinders for heating and cooking £700 I would be interested to hear the average gas bill?!

[i12fly]

FB3, first question is why will it not light?

Are you using the right technique (once lit holding the gas valve open for 20-30 seconds until the thermocouple has heated up). It's easy to forget .

If pilot not lighting:

Can you see a spark at the pilot head through the pilot window? if yes then the likelihood is that dirt is distorting the flame pattern and gas is not reaching the spark (common with a cast heat exchanger)

If no spark then there is something wrong with either:

a) the electrode lead (most likely fault the insulation sleeve near the electrode has burnt and the wire probably corroded and broken) easily replaced by a universal electrode lead -a decent heating engineer should carry some

b) the electrode is broken (would need to be replaced, you may find one by googling using the part no. and picture in the spares list in the instructions, other Olympic models will probably use the same part)

c) the spark generator/igniter may have failed, the least likely fault. You can test this by disconnecting the electrode lead at the generator (this is outside the sealed box so not interfering with safety aspects) push a short piece of wire into the generator and hold the other end of the wire about 3mm from the metalwork. Wear a rubber glove or something so you don't get a shock. Press the igniter and you should see a spark on to the metalwork.

The other question is why the pilot goes out in wind, this needs a good gas engineer to sort, most likely cause is either:

a) Poor yellow floppy pilot flame due to lack of service (air ports partially blocked or dust around pilot jet)

b) Worn thermocouple, they deteriorate with age, typical life 4 to 105 years,your gas engineer should carry universal spares

c) Pilot shield not fitted correctly

d) worn seals on the combustion chamber or flue doors, or case seals, this is often overlooked by gas engineers but is important as it upsets the 'balance' of the balanced flue design. The boiler should be room sealed.

e) the balanced flue terminal is not positioned in accordance with the instructions (no solution for this!)

As John above recommends, get a (good) older heating engineer, 55+, my experience is that young chaps only know about electronic systems and haven't a clue how to test thermocouple systems.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[cymaz]

My gas and electric bill is £75 / month. I’ve changed suppliers 3 times to get cheap prices...it’s worth doing.

[fly boy3]

Hi all, loved reading about all your experiences and stories regarding house hold heating. Never believed that such a mundane subject could be so entertaining. Thanks. i12fly is the engineer I was looking for. You diagnosed it, No1 on your list, the flame was very weak and yellow, and was the first thing he sorted during his service, Also adjustments made led to a much brighter spark on ignition. Thanks for you help, and I have saved your list for when it will be needed. Cheers

[Geoff S]

We had a new combi condensing boiler installed about 2 years ago - Bosch/Worcester. As we live only a couple of miles from the Vaillent factory it was a difficult decision but both plunbers we know personally strongly recommended the Worcester. It replaced a 15 year old combi I'd been repairing on and of for the the last 8 years of its life.

My wife has recently made an assessment of our total nett energy bill. Nett because we have solar panels and the she's subtracted the Feed inTarif (FIT) payments. There was a bit of a problem getting the figures because we were on the unmetered StayWarm system until it was ended.

Anyway, our annual energy bill varies between £250 and £300. Our house is a mid 19th century stone cottge with no wall cavities but we have double glazing and very good roof insulation (8" of fibre glass and recently foam isulation under the slates). Of course we were unable to assess how much solar energy we use during the day but that must be a big factor in the total cost.

Geoff

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

In a previous house we had a very old but reliable boiler. It was floor mounted under the first half of the staircase and the area was open to the kitchen/diner.

I eventually replaced it for efficiency reasons and promptly had to have two kitchen radiators installed. The old one had been keeping the kitchen nice and toasty it's self. So there's a big chunk of extra efficiency lost.

The reliability of the new one was terrible. So much so that after the warranty period, during which time their service was awful, I got to know it's ins and outs intimately and kept it going myself for a few years. It was mostly silly design things like the magnet/reed switch hot water flow sensor failing due to being demagnetiser by the temperature.

[Rich too]

Posted by fly boy3 on 04/11/2019 15:09:07:

Hi all, I have a heating boiler of 25year plus. (Thorn Emi Olympic 30/50B). When the wind blows pilot light out perhaps once may be twice a year, I am unable to light it again using the appropriate and safe method. My plumber has to visit to get it lit. He always re minds me I should get a new boiler, I do not agree, as boiler is fine bar the manual ignition system. Would there possibly be spares still out there, or an alternative. Main reason for not wanting to spend £2000 + on a new boiler is my age lol. Cheers ps my boiler is older than my plumber

Edited By fly boy3 on 04/11/2019 15:12:32

👍. Same here. Old boilers just work, and everyone I have spoken to says new boilers are unreliable rubbish (being polite). We have it serviced occasionally and always carry one of the pilot light thermocouple things, because it’s the only thing that needs replacing.

[John Tee]

Geoff. Vaillant boilers are good when they work, but they have a lot of expensive electronics in them. When I worked in the trade I found their "technical help" not very helpful - change x if that dosen't work change y until you hit the right bit.

John

[i12fly]

Hi Fly Boy 3, glad you sorted it OK. I'm now retired but used to design them. The old boilers tend to be reliable because there are few working parts but need to be safety checked regularly and you do lose out on efficiency now. Spares become the problem when a unique part fails and the only solution is boiler replacement.

Electronics on boilers used to be problematical because manufacturers had to rely on suppliers who lacked experience, but the very latest models from the big manufacturers are pretty reliable -such that they can give 10 year warranties to cover you. They are quite complex beasts though, as they have to comply with ever tightening regulations, so perfection is not ensured. That's where the long warranty helps. It is important to use a good engineer that has been factory trained at the appliance manufacturer, somebody that knows what they are doing, as diagnosing faults on the phone is very difficult, there are still too many engineers that cannot use a multimeter properly. Inbuilt diagnostics are good, but useless when the diagnosing part (the electronics) has failed. Often faults are not on the appliance itself but the system it is connected to, which an installer may be reluctant to admit......

[Nigel R]

"The old boilers tend to be reliable because there are few working parts but need to be safety checked regularly and you do lose out on efficiency now. "

There's a lot to be said for having low repair and upkeep costs. Ours is old, very old, c. late 70s I believe, runs on anthracite, and has electronics consisting of one thermistor, a temperature dial and a fan unit - all still the original parts. I expect one day the water jacket will rot, but it will have done good service. Annual maintenance consists of me sweeping the chimney, a few squirts of WD40 and giving the fan a brush out to clear off any cruft. Efficient? Not really. It gets very warm - and then so does the kitchen. Annual heating bill for early 1800s house, ~£750. Over the five or six months we run it, we don't need to use our immersion for hot water or use the electric showers, and we have more hot water than we can possibly use, so in theory the electric goes down by about £1 or so per day - although in practice we have to do more washing and tumble drying so that all cancels out.

On the other hand, I shudder to think of what the emissions are like compared to a current gas condensing job...

[ken anderson.]

I'm an ex British gas lad(30)years...… the gas regs are very strict and only a qualified person is allowed to remove the cover from an appliance to carry out service work......if you don't know what you're doing, leave to the people who do,times gone by there were numerous accidents by DIY jobs getting done on peoples property.

ken anderson...ne..1..... gas dept.

[i12fly]

Agreed Ken, that's why I referred to Gas Engineer repeatedly. On another note it is particularly important that chimney flue appliances are checked at least annually by a good engineer as a partial blockage or leak can be lethal. Particularly chimney flue gas fires must be checked.

One particular bugbear that gets my goat is when the TV and magazine warning 'adverts' say Carbon Monoxide doesn't smell. That is absolutely true, pure CO is odourless -but what they don't say is that if you get a CO leak you often/usually get other products of combustion leaking that do smell. The reason I raise this is that I've had quite a number of people say to me " I didn't think it was CO because I could smell it and thought it must be safe". In each case the levels of CO were hazardous -the worst was in a children's playroom. Gas Safe took no interest when the issue of smell was raised with them. In a 5 year period 'on the road' I found more dangerous appliances that were nothing to do with the job that I had gone to see. What never ceased to amaze me is how nasty people could be when you pointed out their health/lives were at risk and disconnection was mandatory.