2 or 3 questions please, need some wise advice

[kc]

Some points about wing bands whilst we are talking about them

special wing bands are best as they are wider than ordinary ones - obtain from SLEC etc and they are best used diagonally. Must be quite tight when stretched on wing. Usually people use at least 6. In use watch out as they perish in air and sunlight so spare ones should be stored sealed in polythene bags. Any weird things the plane does, maybe in a dive is a probable indicator of failing bands. You need spare ones to hand.

I believe some clubs have rules on what colour wing bands you can use ( No it's not April 1st) and I think it's white. Those clubs say you have to pick up any that fall off as cattle eat them and get sick......

Edited By kc on 24/03/2020 15:05:03

[911hillclimber]

Despite clicking 'remember me' I still have to log-on nearly every time I want to post!

Bands:

I have some fresh wide white ones but for easy assy while sorting linkages etc I cut 2 in half and used these today.

UV seems to get to them very quickly, but as ever, sound practical advice on here! 6 seems enough to me to collapse the centre section of this wing!

At our motorsport race track which passes through a dear park in Shropshire we get nailed by the landlord if he finds ANY cable ties on the ground. The deer really like them and they die in tragic circumstances when ingested.

[911hillclimber]

I think I have one last question, and seeing as I started this 'little' thread with a few, I'll finish with just one last one.

 

I used balsa cement (UHU Hart) on this plane. For the next one 9coming tomorrow) I would like to use something faster and certainly less messy.

 

What is the current thinking for a balsa model today please?

 

I forgot to say that the plane weighs 3.5 Lb all read to fly (seems very heavy?) and the C0f G is bang on to the plan, more by luck than any design...

Edited By 911hillclimber on 24/03/2020 17:00:02

Edited By 911hillclimber on 24/03/2020 17:00:28

[paul d]

Personally I use gorilla glue ( not the expanding stuff!!) or good old "resin w" by evostick, 3.5lb sounds bang on to me oh and I always keep my rubber bands in a tin with talc somewhere cool, rubber hates heat and light.

one final point 4 bands will be fine, it's not a aerobatic job after all.

[David Davis]

I believe that aliphatic or PVA white glues are the most popular glues used today for most balsa to balsa or balsa to ply joints but they are not quick setting and need to be left to go off overnight. They are excellent for glueing sheet to wings, tails or fuselages.

I am currently building a 1938 Big Guff. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3115832-The-Big-Guff-This-is-mine The wing and tailplane structure is made up of halved joints between the ribs and the spars. I assemble the structure dry on the board then ran cyano (super glue) down the joints. I also used cyano to secure the leading edge.

Four high stress areas I use half hour epoxy.

 

Edited By David Davis on 24/03/2020 17:43:10

[911hillclimber]

Thank you David.

Waiting overnight all the time sounds hard work to me!

Dropping CA into the joints sounds far better and the Dumas kit has a LOT of the slotted joints with stringers, so probably the best option.

Kit arrives this morning.

Nothing from George as to servos etc from his range, must be busy, or very tired of me!

[David Davis]

It may well be the best choice for the model you have in mind but bear in mind that cyano sets very quickly. Make sure that you have everything lined up correctly first. Which model is it?

Having said that, let me tell you a little story from my aeromodelling life.

I built my first model aeroplane when I was eleven years old, a Keil Kraft Ajax. The man who taught me how to build was my Uncle Geoff. He had married one of my mother's four sisters. He died of cancer in 1963 when I was about fourteen years old. He was only 36. Before he died he gave me all of his models including a part-built double-sized Vic Smeed Tomboy. He was a draughtsman and had drawn up the plans himself. He had only completed the basic structure of the fuselage before he died. Spool on past the sex'n'drugs'n'rock'n'roll years and I built the wings and tail, covered it and installed an engine and radio. Picture of it below with my much younger self.

The fuselage you see in the picture is Geoff's but the balsa wood was either of poor quality to begin with or it had deteriorated over the years. It soon began to break apart so I built another gluing the 1/4" balsa stick structure together using cyano. I was a very inexperienced pilot in those days and somehow I managed to get it into a spiral dive. When it hit the ground I was left with a big yellow bag of balsa wood bits. Since then I have always used white glues on fuselages and often on wings too. With the Big Guff's wing and tail I made an exeption because I thought that the structure as designed is very strong.

I have heard that the glue joint produced by CA glues is very brittle and if my experience with the Big Tomboy is anything to go by, it is. I built a third fuselage using PVA glue. I managed to crash the model into a tree which resulted in another fuselage right-off. As I said I was very inexperienced in those days. I'm a club level instructor now.  I still have the wings and tail downstairs in a box in the workshop. One day I'll build a fourth fuselage for it.

What's the problem with waiting overnight for the glue to dry? You can't go flying anyway!

Edited By David Davis on 25/03/2020 10:20:27

Edited By David Davis on 25/03/2020 10:28:35

[Tim Flyer]

I agree David. Cyano is too fast for me to use as general building adhesive, and doesn’t allow any repositioning. On many occasions I have decided at the last minute to move things or prevented a mistake. The other bad thing with cyano is it is hard to sand and isn’t great for sticking covering onto , plus it’s nasty stuff to get on skin. White glues become tacky again with heat which helps with covering . I definitely still use cyano for parts that need quick tacking, and for hardening , but I believe white glues (aliphatics and PVA) are better for general building. I particularly like Tite bond aliphatic which sands well too.

Edited By Tim Flyer on 25/03/2020 10:40:04

[911hillclimber]

All good stuff!

My first build was a KK high wing rubber free flight.

it went off and never came back...

Others followed, last ones were control line so never got away, but lots of crashes as the underpowered planes failed to loop...

model came today.

24" Dumas Supermarine S6 rubber that I'll modify to 3 ch radio. Lovely laser cut parts and zillions of 1/6th balsa strip, the opposite to the Buccaneer!

I want a different build challenge to the Buccaneer, and look forward to the fight against weight.

Glue wise I'll stick to balsa cement!

going back to tissue and dope (?) will be a laugh getting it wrinkle free. What can go wrong?

[Simon Chaddock]

011hillclimber

If you are fighting weight don't under estimate tissue. For such a small plane use lightweight Model Span if you can get it. With one coat of thinned dope it is about the lightest of all 'outdoor' coverings.

It can even be used with an all Depron structure to save still more weight.

.Rather important if you are trying to build a scale twin EDF under 250 g.

[911hillclimber]

Thank you Simon.

will thinned dope get the creases out of the tissue?

[David Davis]

Best of luck controlling a 24" model as your second aircraft Graham!

[911hillclimber]

Nah, be a cinch!

Might not be a flyer unless I can crack the 'radio/motor' combo, so hard to get the info you need.

I'll start another thread in the 'modern' section of the forum incase there are people there who have been through the learning curve themselves.

Thinking of getting a foam park flyer and gutting it for the radio/motor.

Edited By 911hillclimber on 26/03/2020 13:00:32

[Piers Bowlan]

You might be 'looking forward to the fight against weight' hillclimber, but there is not a lot you can do about the drag with a seaplane with floats. (save from flying it without the floats!). Once the motor stops it will fly like the proverbial brick.

A satisfying build though and an unusual project.

Nice work, looks very pretty.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 26/03/2020 13:05:36

[David Davis]

Graham I have taught a lot of retired gentlemen how to fly, so if you want a bit of unsolicited advice on a second model, read on.

In my opinion you have made the right choice in chosing a vintage model to learn on. They are automatically stable and I usually find that trainees much over the age of 45 have some difficulty flying four channel models at first. Younger novices have less of a problem. However, even flying a vintage model is not quite as easy as it may look so be prepared to repair your model while you learn.

Let's assume that you have reached the stage where you can take off, fly and land your Buccaneer safely. I'm frequently asked for suggestions for a second model and my usual reply is, "A WOT 4."

They are available as kits or as ARTFs but I wonder how easy the standard WOT 4 kit would be to convert to electric power and how it would fly. It looks like it might be rather heavy to me with a decent sized LiPo. You can buy the ARTF WOT 4 either as a balsa and ply model or as a foamie. Have a look here Steve Webb's site here: **LINK**I've flown almost all of the WOT 4s and they've all been excellent flyers and I would recommend the WOT4 GP/EP ARTF above all of the others. This model may be fitted with either an i/c engine or an electric motor but for a little more money you could buy the Foam-E version which comes complete with motor, ESC and all of the servos. One of my novices who was a fine builder but a terrible pilot went from strength to strength after flying a WOT 4 Foam-E. I know that you like to build, so do I, but I urge you to consider a WOT 4 ARTF as a tool to improve your flying. Nothing more.

If you must build try a Mick Reeves Gangster, a 4 Star 40 if you can find one or a DB Sport and Scale Skyrider all have good reputations and the Skyrider is pretty cheap too. **LINK**

Finally, please don't chose a small model as your next, WOT 4 Foam-E excepted!

[911hillclimber]

Thank you David, and I do not doubt your advice at all, ever!

However...the deed is done. The plane's plan is easing it's creases as we speak, but I won't start until I have the radio parts in my hands.

Maybe all wrong and totally against your advice I love the look of this plane, and it might just be a static 'on the wall' build yet.

I most enjoy the challenge of the build and the modification and learning the ins-n-outs. This little plane will be/feel the opposite to my Buccaneer.

Having been an R&D engineer and Design director all my working life, it's in the blood. All my cars etc are all modified, it has to happen!

Here is one of the USA conversions in flight:

https://youtu.be/9gT8vScKID8

 

 

Over on Indoor planes someone has allowed me to f=see the tree in the wood about the micro radio parts, right under my nose too, have looked at the parts/kit many times but missed a vital clue to it's suitability.

The kit is at Vintage Aeroplanes' site, £75 + battery/charger so a mite expensive, but 4-Max are on the case too.

Their servo's are really small, 8.3mm x 19mm x 23mm, and with the 'micro' room in this plane, just about useable.

Sometimes the Journey is better than the Destination for me.

Edited By 911hillclimber on 26/03/2020 15:26:09

[911hillclimber]

It has been a long time but I have returned!

 

Have actually joined Central Model Flying Club and the BMFA and if the weather is ok (dry) I'm off to the flying field with the Buccaneer and I hope I will not be alone there, will need some help I'm sure.

Prepared the plane, charged the battery, new rubber bands for the wings etc, checked all the trims and have just completed the range test which was fine.

Need fresh batteries in the Tx, Duracels I think, not sure the IKEA batteries are up to the job.

Checked the CofG which looks dead-on,  flat when supported on the wings and finger tips, possibly tail heavy by '1 degree' best as I can judge.

Bit worried the thrust angle is too much. The pull by the motor on full throttle is impressive, but this model feels heavy @ 1.6Kg (3lbs 8oz).

 

If I get into the air I don't expect to use more than the battery charge, but not sure what running time I should expect from the 3 cell 2200 mAh battery?

 

Does 10 mins sound about right?

 

This site has changed, how do you access the personal picture album bit to post a pic in a post?

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by 911hillclimber

[Don Fry]

Try 7 minutes, you can always fly longer, but, if the motor cuts, because you have run out of energy, fuel or electric, it’s a problem . Then you can expand the envelope as necessary. Or try 5 minutes. 

Serious advise, don’t even think about a bit aft CG, on an untried aircraft. Nose heavy, is flies badly but under control, tail heavy it crashes once.
I assume you have never had the joy of the latter. Don’t go there. 

[Dwain Dibley.]

1 hour ago, 911hillclimber said:

It has been a long time but I have returned!

 

Have actually joined Central Model Flying Club and the BMFA and if the weather is ok (dry) I'm off to the flying field with the Buccaneer and I hope I will not be alone there, will need some help I'm sure.

Prepared the plane, charged the battery, new rubber bands for the wings etc, checked all the trims and have just completed the range test which was fine.

Need fresh batteries in the Tx, Duracels I think, not sure the IKEA batteries are up to the job.

Checked the CofG which looks dead-on,  flat when supported on the wings and finger tips, possibly tail heavy by '1 degree' best as I can judge.

Bit worried the thrust angle is too much. The pull by the motor on full throttle is impressive, but this model feels heavy @ 1.6Kg (3lbs 8oz).

 

If I get into the air I don't expect to use more than the battery charge, but not sure what running time I should expect from the 3 cell 2200 mAh battery?

 

Does 10 mins sound about right?

 

This site has changed, how do you access the personal picture album bit to post a pic in a post?

 

 

Might see you there then sometime !!

D.D.

[Dad_flyer]

On 16/02/2020 at 15:56, 911hillclimber said:

Ok:

then which motor/prop would be good for this plane? The plan says a weight of 5Lbs maximum.

Now is the time to change things.

What iron-on covering would give a vintage look? Not sure I want the 'see-through' bright colours.

There is a blue/cream Buccaneer on google that looks so right, looks like tissue of old.

You only need to change the motor itself if it is so heavy that you need tail weight. An electric motor will perform perfectly well on a small prop delivering the lower power that you want for this model. In fact a motor capable of high power will be more efficient at converting electricity to forward power than a smaller motor (turning the same prop at the same rpm).  The extra weight is extra copper wire, which gives less resistance.

If you have the specs of the motor, particularly the KV then that will help to find what prop will be appropriate.

[911hillclimber]

Thank you for the replies and advice.

I'm sure my nerves will be shattered by 5 mins....

The motor/battery combo was set, I think, by the experienced people on here and the supplier who's name escapes me right now.

The supplier sent the battery, motor and prop as best for the size and type of plane.

I recently read that tail heavy was bad as the plane can stall quickly?

 

My most recent crash was a KK Marquis in about 1965, contol line, ran out of fuel and nosed straight to the ground.

Abruptly would be an understatement.

Had difficulty cycling back with all the bits.

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

2 hours ago, 911hillclimber said:

It has been a long time but I have returned!

 

Have actually joined Central Model Flying Club and the BMFA and if the weather is ok (dry) I'm off to the flying field with the Buccaneer and I hope I will not be alone there, will need some help I'm sure.

Prepared the plane, charged the battery, new rubber bands for the wings etc, checked all the trims and have just completed the range test which was fine.

Need fresh batteries in the Tx, Duracels I think, not sure the IKEA batteries are up to the job.

Checked the CofG which looks dead-on,  flat when supported on the wings and finger tips, possibly tail heavy by '1 degree' best as I can judge.

Bit worried the thrust angle is too much. The pull by the motor on full throttle is impressive, but this model feels heavy @ 1.6Kg (3lbs 8oz).

 

If I get into the air I don't expect to use more than the battery charge, but not sure what running time I should expect from the 3 cell 2200 mAh battery?

 

Does 10 mins sound about right?

 

This site has changed, how do you access the personal picture album bit to post a pic in a post?

 

 

You no longer need to upload a picture to an album - a simple drag and drop or copy/paste is all that's required.  Your old photos are still available although the album structure was a casualty of the migration.

 

If you go to Profile/See My Activity, it will take you to your gallery.

[911hillclimber]

Thank you, worked a treat.

 

[911hillclimber]

What a morning!

actually went to the flying field with the plane above to finally have a go.

Very friendly reception to say the least, lots of help and advice and even a loan of a Junior 60 to try my nervous hands on!

An experienced flyer took the Buccaneer up and trimmed it and I have to say the plane looked absolute magic floating along with a whisper of throttle and so stable, the light yellow glowing in the crisp cloudless blue sky.

 

it was all I hoped it would be.

 

Then I took the controls with my instructor next to me which really helped.

I offered to land it.

He was not so sure....

plane lined up into the breeze and the approach was great, but I thought it was not loosing height enough and applied FAR to much elevator and the plane nose dived to the hard landing area very very abruptly.

 

Not too much damage, the wood prop fractured and some superficial damage, but this afternoon almost all repaired.

Fantastic, and feeling very enthused, hope to return next week for some more.

 

A Good Start.

[Kim Taylor]

I'm sure it's been explained to you bt your instructor, but just in case:

In the landing phase

Speed of the 'plane is controlled by the elevator

Rate of descent is controlled by the throttle.

So in your case the correct course of action would have been to close the throttle a bit. If it's completely closed and the 'plane is just floating on past the strip, open up and go around. If you had been undershooting (dropping short of the strip) open the throttle a gnats to extend the glide.

The problem with these vintage types is 1) They tend to float on or 2) if you give them a burst of throttle they tend to pitch up, then revert to 1).

Have you got a flight sim? When I (re) started I found mine a real help with orientation and building up muscle memory.

Kim