Hello Everyone

[Greg Grimwood]

Hello All,

 

Having been part time builder / flyer / crasher of model aircraft for many years. I am thinking it is about time to take it a bit more seriously and learn to fly properly. If anyone has any advice on a suitable trainer, either IC or electric, I would be pleased to hear all opinions.

 

Also, any advice on a suitable club. I am based in Sleaford, Lincolnshire.

 

Thank you in advance

 

Greg

 

 

[Jon H]

You have done it now Greg, never ask modellers for their opinion!

 

But, as you did, i am yet to be convinced that anything other than a classic 40 size trainer is the way to go. You can fly it ic or electric, but a model of that size (60 odd inch) and weight made from wood is still my preference.  Yea they are ugly boxes with planks on top, but they are very capable models and its not a tragedy if you happen to lawn dart it by accident. I dont know what your current experience level is, but this is what i would go for. 

 

I have tried teaching with foamy electric trainers and found that students didnt really learn much as they dont stall, land at 2mph and there is basically no bite to them if you get something wrong. They also tended to struggle in winds where the bigger model would carry on. 

 

I recommend an engine because of flight time. With an engine powered model you can fly for, within reason, as long as you like and refuelling is a 2 minute job. To match this with electric you need a load of batteries and/or a field charger with a power source and then have to wait for a recharge. 

 

The down side of engines is you have to clean the model, but towels and fairy liquid are readily available. The oil residue can be reduced by using the right fuel, tuning the engine nicely, use a 4 stroke if possible...etc. Yes there is a bit to learn there with engine tuning and setup, but you have to learn with electric as well. Amps, volts, cell counts, charge rates, C ratings etc. If you dont want a fire, there is a good bit to learn about electric flying to have a safe and successful time. Ultimately, both powerplants require similar levels of relevant technical knowledge and both have their own safety issues to consider. 

 

Another factor is to consider where you want to go with your flying. If you have your heart set on a 90 inch Spitfire then i would probably start i/c and stay i/c. You can electrocute a Spitfire that size, but most would be looking at 50-60cc engines. If you are satisfied with smaller models, perhaps only fly in the park etc then electric might be the way to go. There is also the question of weather you are a mechanically minded chap or if you like electronics and motors.

 

I cant help with clubs in your area but the BMFA club finder can. Also there a new rules and regs you may need to catch up on as well. 

 

 

 

 

[Rich Griff]

Basic slope soarer if you have a suitable slope handy.

 

Fresh air, excercise( usually a good 15 minutes walk from your car probably up hill, character building ), free fuel and long quiet flying times...but wrap up to keep out the cold.

 

Even a basic 2 channel model can be quite aerobatic, rewarding and will teach you a lot.

 

Bmfa achievement awards scheme is out there, spot landing etc...good prep for powered flight ic or electric...

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rich Griff

[extra slim]

As Jon rightly points out, everyone has an opinion... however the most important opinion is of the person who is going to teach you!!. if you turn up somewhere asking for instruction saying "the blokes on this forum said", it  may or may not go down well.

 

If you want ultimately to go IC, but you only have instructors advocating electric, then it might be a case of taking what you can, to get in the air and a level of competence, and transitioning at a later stage, as Jons thoughts are valid, in the differences of foamies v balsa IC types, wind, stall, penetration, handling etc.

 

Either has pro's and con's and so depends on personal preference, and club restrictions etc. 

 

Only thing I'm not so sure about, is "use a 4 stroke if possible".... not necessary.. I would imagine 90% of people who have learnt have learnt on a 2 stroke. Dont get me wrong, I love 4 strokes and mostly fly them of all manner of makes and sizes, but for learning, you just need something appropriate. Could be a 2 or 4 stroke..

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, extra slim said:

As Jon rightly points out, everyone has an opinion... however the most important opinion is of the person who is going to teach you!!. if you turn up somewhere asking for instruction saying "the blokes on this forum said", it  may or may not go down well.

 

If you want ultimately to go IC, but you only have instructors advocating electric, then it might be a case of taking what you can, to get in the air and a level of competence, and transitioning at a later stage, as Jons thoughts are valid, in the differences of foamies v balsa IC types, wind, stall, penetration, handling etc.

 

Either has pro's and con's and so depends on personal preference, and club restrictions etc. 

 

Only thing I'm not so sure about, is "use a 4 stroke if possible".... not necessary.. I would imagine 90% of people who have learnt have learnt on a 2 stroke. Dont get me wrong, I love 4 strokes and mostly fly them of all manner of makes and sizes, but for learning, you just need something appropriate. Could be a 2 or 4 stroke..

 

My only counter slim is that the 'my way or the highway' attitude of some clubs and instructors is not a great one, especially when they are wrong in the first place or pushing their own biases or agenda without considering the other side. I recommend an i/c 40 size trainer as 25 years of training has shown me its a really great choice, but if a student showed up with an electric foamy as they live in a small flat and the model is stored in their bedroom, i will still teach them. if Greg decided he wanted an i/c trainer he shouldnt be 'bullied' into something else by a club or instructor. Club rules are another story. if your local club is electric only then you have a choice between a longer drive and the model you want or a compromise on the model and less travel time. 

 

On the 2 vs 4 stroke thing, 2 strokes are fine and 10 a penny used these days. My comments about 4 stroke were related to getting the cleanest and most efficient setup as a counter to the complaints about oil mess. They are often quieter and that can be an issue at some sites. I also find the power delivery nicer than 2 stroke but you are quite right, a 2 stroke will do the job just fine and would be cheaper than a 4s. 

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

First step, find a club via BMFA https://bmfa.justgo.com/clubFinder.html

 

Second step, visit the club and chat about what you want to do in short, medium and long term (if you know!) 

 

Third step, agree, with an instructor, what's best for you, and how you'll achieve it.

 

I agree with most of what's already been offered.... but if you came to my club, the third step would 'drive' your first steps.  And it would be to learn the basics on the club trainer, which happens to be electric, whilst you decide what's next/build or assemble your own model - be it ic or electric.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Agree with Grumpy, go visit a club and proceed from there.

Welcome to the forum Greg. 🙂

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Yes as said, Club, club and club , if you ask questions, ask the flyer who sets his gear out, checks it then fly's at a safe distance and not over peoples heads then lands on the runway 'wheels down' and walks it back to his field box,,,

[David Davis 2]

Hello Greg and welcome to the forum!

 

I agree entirely with the advice offered so far about joining a club and using a model with a five to six foot wingspan.

 

You don't say how old you are but I have found that many retired beginners find a typical 40-46 powered ARTF trainer too fast at least at first. You say that you have built models in the past. I have found that older beginners are happier initially with a three channel vintage model like a Ben Buckle Super 60. https://www.benbucklevintage.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=11. There are downsides to a model like this, they are a bit of a handful in a wind but a beginner should not fly in anything stronger than a good breeze anyway. 

 

There's nothing stopping you from joining a club and learning to fly on their ARTF four channel trainer while you build your Super 60, assuming that your club has such a trainer and many do. Winter is just around the corner, there may not be that many good flying days in the months ahead, so why not spend the time building a model? When the Super 60 is finished, if you have learned how to fly by then, you'll have a nice easy-to-fly vintage model. If you are finding a 40 powered trainer a bit of a handful by the time the Super 60 is finished, you'll have a nice slow-flying trainer with which to improve your flying. An aileron wing is available as an option for the Super 60 too. Good used two-strokes are as cheap as chips though the Super 60 lends itself to electric power too. I'd go for a 25 two-stroke myself.

 

 

 

 

[Don Fry]

BFMA club finder. Attend, looking for instructor. Now be sociable, but keep the eyes open. You need, rolls up, sorts model, starts, flies, (sociable bits) cleans as necessary, goes. Noise and opinions not needed. 
I like 40 size trainers, 800 watts in electric. They have weight to deal with the wind, enough weight to warrant respect, ie will break, will kill if abused. Good learning tools. Don’t care about power source. If you go down the proper instructor route, it will survive the initial learn. In my experience, it dies shortly after, when you think “ what is actually difficult about a low inverted pass on the runway”

At that point, the cost of a crash becomes apparent. But that’s another thread. 
Bottom line, cheaper to get the building skills going, getting someone else to build it is getting expensive, and a self build will always provide bits for the next one.

 

DO NOT LOVE A TRAINER. HAMMER TO DRIVE A NAIL IN. NOT A CHIPPENDALE CABINET.

 

One thing about Clubs, trainers are often part of the club, owned by the club, and others for sale, second hand. Use the first. Take advice if the second represents value. Most club mates don’t rob a fellow member. And if they try, listen to quiet words of advice. 

[Greg Grimwood]

Wow! 

I'm amazed at the level of response. I have only been away from my computer for few hours and can't believe how many replies have been posted in that time.

So firstly, a big thank you to all of you for taking the time to put fingers to keyboard.

 

@Rich GriffThe thought of sloping appeals to me, but if Lincolnshire is not the flattest county in the country it must be a pretty close second! I am lucky enough to have a field next to my house where I have enjoyed some gliding, albeit of the electric assisted type, as over the last couple of years I have built and flown a West Wings Orion-E (with which I caught my first thermal, something that I had always considered be beyond my skill level. There were a few minutes of "is it going up or isn't it?" and then the realisation that it really was ascending rapidly. A fantastic moment that I will not forget!) I also have a Radian Pro,  which I am using to get some experience of flaps, flight modes, crow etc. So for the moment though my slope soaring is restricted to Alta Vista in the Realflight simulator!

 

@Jon - Laser Engines and others, the recommendation for a 40 trainer is very useful as I think I have an Irvine Tutor 40. I say 'think' as I built (OK, assembled) one about 12 years ago complete with OS 40 LA up front, with the intention of joining a club and learning to fly properly! However, life, children and a house move got in the way of that. As part of the house move the poor old Tutor was relocated to my in-laws garage loft where it has languished for the last 11 years.  So I have no idea whether it may rotted, have been moused or succumbed to any other disasters. The OS was unrun at the time so whether that is still viable or seized is anyones guess.

 

My initial thought was that things would have moved on to foamy electric trainers these days, but it sounds like it would be worth at least seeing if it Tutor is salvageable.

 

Thanks to all for the advice about the BMFA club finder page. I should have though of that! I have been a country member for the past 5 years, primarily for the insurance so I tend to forget the other services they offer. 

 

I've also passed my competency test and paid my dues to the CAA. I was really pleased that the new operator number is now 19 digits rather than the previous 10, its not often the government gives you more without charging any extra!!

 

@All - The next step for me will be to approach some local clubs as you folks have suggested.

 

@David Davis 2 I'll be 57 next month, so not retired yet, but still trying! Also I do have a soft spot for vintage models. I have a new PAW which I need to find a home for. Its a bit small for a 60 and no throttle, so not much use in a trainer but I am keeping my eyes out for something suitable...

 

I may also start some posts in the build section of the forums as I have a couple of projects on the building board at the moment but I am notoriously bad at finishing one project before starting another, so hopefully some gentle encouragement or a boot up the backside will help!

 

Once again thank to you all for a very warm welcome.

 

Greg

[Don Fry]

The LA will be fine, soak it in paraffin, or petrol, to loosen it if necessity. No bearings to rot. 

[kevin b]

Hi Greg and welcome.

Nothing to add really. Lots of sound advice already given (and looks like taken).

Only thing I would say is that if you are going to meet up with a club take your Irvine tutor with you. Fettled, or not.

The club experts will be able to assess and advise as necessary before you take it up to fly for the first time (preferably on a buddy lead). 

Better than thinking that you have sorted it out and then not being allowed to fly it.

Edited October 11, 2022 by kevin b

[David Davis 2]

Morning Greg!

 

Sound advice from Kevin and all of the others.

 

The Irvine Tutor was my favourite ARTF trainer. I like its semi symmetrical wing section which makes it easier to fly in a wind. it's a pity they're not made anymore. Your LA Is a sound engine, it's not a ball of fire but it's ideal for your trainer.

 

You obviously have a radio but once you've joined a club, it may be an idea to buy the same make of transmitter and receiver as your instructor if they do not already match, that way you can buddy up to his equipment. The alternative is the "grab-the-transmitter" method! I learned that way but damaged a few models in the process!

 

On the other hand, many clubs have their own trainer complete with two transmitters which you could use from the outset and once you feel confident you could then fly your Tutor. I would also recommend buying a new reciever battery too if the one in the Tutor is eleven years old.

[Jon H]

A tutor 40 gets a thumbs up from me, especially if its the early version. 

 

The LA series of engines were not OS's best effort but it will do a tutor 40 proud and will prevent the excessive speed someone mentioned in an earlier post. Many 40 size trainers are fitted with 46, 52 or 55 ball raced 2 strokes and this is massive overkill. It makes sense though as the bigger engines are often more useful in a 2nd model. 

 

Still, if it is a 40la then a 10x6 prop will work fine and the tutor will trundle around very nicely. 

 

I would not recommend dunking it in petrol, paraffin, thinner or WD40. IF you want to clean up/de-gum an engine old glow fuel or meths is your best bet. 

[Rich Griff]

What PAW do you have ?

 

RC carbs are available from paw.

 

These days it's not good to use a non throttle able engine imho.

 

You could arrange an RC fuel cut off system so the engine can be cut, for safety reasons...

 

A powered glider is a good route to brush up your skills but it is like riding a bike.

 

Suitable flying site a 10 minutes walk from home, you lucky dude.

 

If your radio gear is old, beware of the dreaded black wire corrosion problem...

[extra slim]

If I recall the tutor is a solid bit of kit, once airborne the 40la will fly it fine, just depends on the runway, as if it is soggy longish grass the 40la may struggle to get it off.

I bung old engines in the oven for 3 mins (stripping any plastic parts, taking carb off etc), whip it out, stick a prop on and gently rock it until it comes free.. Then give it a soak/clean.. Good luck

[Greg Grimwood]

Hello All,

 

Just back from a week away and have not had chance to post.

 

I would like to once again thank all of you who have contributed. The advice has been very welcome. I have filled out an application to join the Bardney Flyers club which is about 30 mins form me, so hopefully they have some spaces.

 

With regards to the Tutor, I have some new radio gear that I can replace the old items with (it would have been on 35Mhz) . I am hoping to be able to retrieve it this week so I should know whether or not it is salvageable soon. My main concern is the state of the balsa under the covering and how to test its integrity.

 

The PAW is an 09 and I am thinking that a vintage model for free flight / radio assist would make a good home for it? I'll need to finish off a couple of other projects first.

 

Thanks again.

 

Warm regards,

 

 

Greg

 

 

[Don Fry]

If the covering is Ok, then the wood will be OK. Test the wing, nice soft pillows under tip, put a 10 kilo weight, padded, very gently on the centre section, that is an iro 4-5 g stress test, good enough for a trainer.

Bags of flour, sugar are ideal. Don’t get oil on the packets if you don’t want tongue pie. 
Have a look inside the fusalage, just to check a mouse hasn’t got in, pull control surfaces for security. Not to pull them off, just to check they are good for a flight load.

[Ernie]

Hi Greg, Beware, It's addictive, very addictive, but of course great fun.

I reckon that its so important to BUILD your aircraft. Yes it takes some time, but it gives an insight into how it all works, and of course when the inevitable happens (and it will) you are much better prepared to fix it all up

You can't beat a big lightweight slow flying vintage model. Maybe it was originally designed for free flight, so hands off the box, and it'll sort itself out. 

ernie

[kevin b]

Why do people keep saying that old free flight models make great RC trainers ?

They don't !!!

It's like saying if you dumb down the throws on an aerobatic high winger it will also make a good trainer.

Proper free flight models need a lot of work doing to them in order to fly them properly under radio control.

If you are building from plan better to build something that was designed for the purpose in which you are going to use it.

There is a difference between a radio assisted model and a radio controlled model.

Most of the modern gyro - get you home ARTFs currently available probably come under the former heading as well.

[Simon Chaddock]

Surely it depends on what you want to learn to do.

Some folk are quite happy to just fly an RC plane successfully. Take off, cruise about and land successfully,

The satisfaction to them is being able to do so in a safe and reasonable manner each time they are able to fly.

A free flight RC conversion is suitable for such a purpose.

 

Certainly not every bodies cup of tea but each to his own. 

[David Davis]

I have to side with Simon and Ernie on this one.

 

I feel that the inbuilt stability and slow flying characteristics of a vintage model gives the beginner more time to think about what the model is doing and what he should do keep the model within bounds. Learning to fly is all about building up the learner's confidence. Most of the beginners I have taught are retired gentlemen whose reflexes are not as fast as they once were.  For them, a three channel model is the better option. With something like a Junior 60 if you get into trouble simply chop the throttle and take your hands off the sticks and given enough height the model will sort itself out. Try that with your average 46 powered ARTF trainer and you'll probably have to dig it out! Besides, thousands of British modellers learned to fly on say a Keil Kraft Super 60 at a time when if you wanted a model aeroplane you had to build it yourself. Doubtless the Super 60 could be flown free flight but I strongly suspect that most were fitted with radios.

 

Not that I've anything against ARTF trainers. I have a "well-flown" Boomerang powered by a Thunder Tiger 46 PRO which I use as a follow-on model from a vintage job with my trainees.

 

A few final points.

1. Younger beginners take to flying four channel trainers much more readily than older beginners.
2. Even if you're an expert pilot, bimbling a vintage model around the sky is still jolly good fun.
3. Two members of my club are building Radio Queens. One will be the club's property intended for beginners who cannot mange a four channel ARTF.
4. They have given me the Radio Queen's plan but as I already have three vintage models in my squadron, three models in build and two to service, I don't think I'll build it! Besides, in the last couple of months, four of my friends and relatives have died. At seventy-four some careful planning is required!                             

[Jon H]

20 hours ago, Greg Grimwood said:

 

 

With regards to the Tutor, I have some new radio gear that I can replace the old items with (it would have been on 35Mhz) .

 

 

 

 

No need to scrap the 35mhz gear. It is still legal and valid to use, and with very few users on it these days the chances of being shot down are almost zero. Obviously i would give it some solid testing given its long sleep, but if its working well i would be happy to leave it alone. 

 

I still fly 35 on about half my fleet as i had a bunch of perfectly good PCM receivers. I obviously will not be buying more should these give up the ghost, but until they or the tx give up i will continue to use it. 

 

 

As for the rest, i would expect the tutor to be ok. Depending on where its been living it might be quite damp, so a few days drying out in the house might be a good idea. 

 

Old FF models as trainers..If they have been modified to use ailerons then sure, if not they are not easy to fly accurately. I dont think i would want to attempt a cross wind landing with a 3 channel model. However, when teaching i do disable the ailerons on my students tx to simulate reversed ailerons (ie, you cant use them) or a servo failure. They then have to fly around rudder only and shoot some approaches. I found it a good way to teach rudder control so folk use it for more than just steering on the ground. 

 

I am a big supporter of building models and encourage people to do it, but a trainer? i am not convinced as its a lot of work and it will get broken. I would probably fly the ARTF trainer as is and in the background build your 2nd model if that is what you want to do. Generally i fly ARTF sport models and save my building energy for scale stuff. 

[Ernie]

Hi guys, maybe I should clarify what I mean by a vintage trainer 

Of course a sophisticated free flight model needs very careful fettling and trimming.  But I'm not talking about a competition Wakefield here,

I mean a simple high wing job, possibly with reduced dihedral, so that it can have effective ailerons, and therefore 4 channel control.

As for Gyros, and all that stuff, its essential to learn how to fly the beast, and not depend on wizzardry and electrickery

Also re. dumbing down an aerobatic job. Some time ago, I had a super aerobatic fun fly, big stalky undercarriage with huge wheels, a tuned 40 hanging out front, anf a wing as thick as it was wide. Well move the CG a wee bit, reduce the movement of the controls, and my dear old granny could have flown it

ernie