Help to identify Hawker Tomtit colour scheme from B&W photo

[David Pentland 1]

I am afraid I don’t know anything about our RCAF yellow. I always assumed it was RAF trainer yellow. I’ll do a little research later. IPMS Canada might be able to help. I must comment that this forum uses the English “colour” as I was taught in school. I was shocked when I got my first computer and found the only spelling it accepted was the American “Color”. I had no idea there were 2 ways to spell it.

[Don Fry]

Spellchecker on this site says color is right. Didn’t go to school.

[Eric Robson]

The effects of orthochromatic film, note how the yellow outer ring turns black. also the red and blue as stated by Kc.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Eric Robson

[David Ovenden]

Really useful photo Eric to illustrate KC'S point re colour representation with orthochromatic film. 

[Colin Carpenter]

There’s a famous pic of Mossie E0234 on orthochromatic film , at Hatfield prior to maiden 11/1940 ! It looks black and at first glance you would be forgiven for thinking it was a night fighter !! 😂I’ve got a copy stamped WD somewhere but blowed if I can find it ! Anyway , I suspect the Tomtit is yellow. Colin

[Andy Gates]

The other thing with B+W photography is the use of coloured filters over the lens to help add contrast to certain colours.

 

Typically orange / red filters to add contrast to pale blue skies with white clouds.

 

Something similar may have happened here.

 

I have an aunt in Canada who sent me pictures of one of the planes a relation flew in during training in Canada, a Fairey Battle. Guess the colour - yep orangey yellow

[David Pentland 1]

I did a little googling and came across this from Brit modeller https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/71816-rcaf-trainer-yellow/

So RCAF and RAF yellow were different. It gives fs# so should point you in the right direction. So you learn something new every day. I would have used the wrong yellow.

[David Ovenden]

This looks like the sort of Trainer yellow used by RCAF. At least on my screen it does.... but maybe not on yours though!

[Eric Robson]

Similar to Cub yellow?

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I have a ton of this yellow in acrylic if you need some,,,

 

 80ml at around 5€ at Mr Bricolage.

[Simon Chaddock]

From the research I have been able to do in the late 1920s or early 1930s the RCAF did not appear to have a formal "training" colour scheme for their aircraft. It would be reasonable to assume a UK sourced plane would follow that of the RAF unless or until it was repainted for any reason, then the colour would be any bodies guess.   

[J D 8]

 NA Harvard 2 at Canadian Bomber Command museum.

Edited November 29, 2022 by J D 8

[David Ovenden]

Thanks to everyone who has responded and contributed to the thread. What a mine of knowledge we have on the forum! I will go for yellow in the knowledge that no one can really prove whether the shade I use is the "correct" one or not. 

[David Pentland 1]

I came across this photo today, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before. I think it is from the same set that David posted at the start of this thread.

[David Pentland 1]

4 minutes ago, David Pentland 1 said:

I came across this photo today, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before. I think it is from the same set that David posted at the start of this thread.

[David Pentland 1]

My bad, wrong photo. 

[David Pentland 1]

Here is the other photo of 140 I’d found. It shows it was repainted at least twice. A question I have always has is, right behind the second cockpit there is a “ break “ line in the covering that goes up the side of the fuselage and over the top. I have not seen this feature on any other Tomtit. Any idea what it is.

[Don Fry]

I think it’s a change in the internal structure, The skins were stitched into the frame rather than shrunk on.

Note the dog rough finishes of late war WW1 British fighters. I have sometimes wondered, how to recreate Ball’s final SE 5, wrinkles and all.

 

I think that photograph shows a machine in green.

Ortho film was sensitive to high energy light. ie, blue end of spectrum. So when you print the negative, the burnt out blue areas on the negative, show as black. The red area shows light. 
Compare, that’s a dark green. PC 10?

[PatMc]

3 hours ago, Don Fry said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ortho film was sensitive to high energy light. ie, blue end of spectrum. So when you print the negative, the burnt out blue areas on the negative, show as black. The red area shows light. 
Compare, that’s a dark green. PC 10?

I think you have that the wrong way round, Don. With ortho film the red is very dark, blue is light. 

For some reason the rudder colours on this Canadian Tomtit seem to be the reverse of standard. Or the photo was taken with panchromatic film & the roundals are reverse colour. 😉

 

PS all the photos in David's first 2 posts seem to show this non standard rudder flash.

Edited November 30, 2022 by PatMc

[kc]

Remember it's a NEGATIVE film and it's printed onto bromide paper to give a posiitive image.   So what's dark on the film ( negative) comes out light and whats light comes out dark on the print.

[Eric Robson]

14 hours ago, David Pentland 1 said:

Here is the other photo of 140 I’d found. It shows it was repainted at least twice. A question I have always has is, right behind the second cockpit there is a “ break “ line in the covering that goes up the side of the fuselage and over the top. I have not seen this feature on any other Tomtit. Any idea what it is.

This is the same picture as the one David put on at the start of the thread, I have seen many photos of wartime aircraft and I would say the colour is yellow,

Strange that the aluminium cladding does not darken.

The section over the cockpits I would think is painted aluminium as  fabric covering would need support and there does not appear to be any stringers under the cockpit area, or it may be plywood. The only other pictures I have seen are the preserved Tomtit and this area is smooth but after many years of rebuilds it is hard to determine what has been done to it.

[J D 8]

    The Tomtit was/is all metal, part of the design requirement.

[GrumpyGnome]

On 28/11/2022 at 20:30, Don Fry said:

Spellchecker on this site says color is right. Didn’t go to school.

 

Not on my phone, desktops, or Surface. Probably your browser setting has language set to 'English (American)'. Or your device....

[Don Fry]

7 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

 

Not on my phone, desktops, or Surface. Probably your browser setting has language set to 'English (American)'. Or your device....

Nope

[Robin Colbourne]

Why not email the Royal Canadian Air Force Museum?  If they don't know the answer regarding the colour scheme, they might bew in contact with an expert who does.  This page has the names of the people to contact  Royal Canadian Air Force Memorial Museum
Ms Georgiana Stanciu, the curator, would be the person to contact.  Email:  [email protected]

Edited December 7, 2022 by Robin Colbourne