First taste of the sky

[Frank Skilbeck]

9 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

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When teaching i went into aerobatics often before takeoff's and landings as it taught several lessons which simple circuit flying does not..or at least, does but it takes longer. It also removes some of the fatigue of flying in circles, and forces a greater level of skill from the student as their errors are more apparent. Clearly careful coaching/guidance is needed but its not hard. I once took up a 10 year old lad who had never flown anything other than his 3 channel parkzone cub. I took off, handed him the tx for my 76 inch sport twin with 2 70 4 strokes and off we went. He could loop and roll it very nicely about 6 minutes later. For crying out loud the first thing i ever did on a model was a loop. I was only 5 and my dad told me to pull the stick back and watch what happened. His flair pup did a loop and that was that! 

 

Aren't youngsters annoying! We do a couple of evenings a year with our local air cadets, some say they have never flown a RC model before and after few mins you'd swear that they had been lying to you 😗

[Rich Griff]

5 mins flying time, 8 circuits then land ?

 

Mind you, take off to extra hieght, idle motor and "glide' for a bit, throttle up, gain hieght, repeat until "timed out" then land, but leaving sufficient file fuel for at least one aborted landing and go around again...

 

Unless is was super aerobatic and fast jobby, 5 mins or so would not be enough for me.

 

You doing slope soaring or powered gliders at all ?

 

You need practise practise practise, another 6 batteries and a field charger, or sloper/powered glider.

 

You do have an IC powered trainer with an estimated 16 mins plus endurance that you could land early if needed ?

 

The important thing is "don't give up".

 

Every flying session is a learning period. Say out loud ( again ) " prop the dipping wing with the stick", or variations of that until your flying becomes instinctive, second nature, natural, needing  minimum thinking time for correction. In short time, no thinking time wil be needed, a very fluid flowing flight.

 

Keep practising with purpose toto.

 

A loop is an easy entry into inverted flight, just remain two mistakes high.

[Rich Griff]

Hi Frank, good to hear you help out your local atc squadron 

 

The squadron may have an enclosed cockpit pc flight sym system. The principle of flight training books are very well written.

 

Lots of subjects are taught for the various levels of cadet, tests/exams taken to gain the badge/award.

 

Test passes needed by cadets to "progress" to further things like summer camp ( hope they still happen ) and aef ( air experience flight, in  chipmunk ? ) 

 

Not sure these days but in the eighties even round the pole aeromodeling was not encouraged due to "safety" concerns 

 

Hope that is not the case these days.....

[Cuban8]

Everyone is different. Think of learning to drive - some people get through it with only a minimum of trouble and real effort, whereas others will take ages to get to grips with it and some never do.

In my experience, I didn't necessarily find youngsters complete naturals at learning model flying and conversely, a couple of more senior types who were very good indeed.

This is where a good instructor is worth his weight in gold - a person who can communicate clearly and give confidence to the beginner and assess a newcomer's needs on an individual basis and modify the training accordingly. This is true in all sorts of sports, with the best trainers and coaches often not having had top of the tree sports careers themselves, but do have a knack of getting the best out of others. I've had learners who I got up and away initially and then went on to be vastly superior flyers than I could ever hope to be......I regard that as a great success.

Getting it wrong can easily lead to a very frightened beginner who will dread his couple of hours over the field, and will eventually question why he's bothering with all the hassle as his model heads in a screaming dive yet again, with the instructor taking control  if he's got time and altitude!

Those of a certain age will recall John Long who formulated the BMFA's (SMAE as it was back in the day) training advice and syllabus in a publication called 'Up and Away'.

Personally, I think he got it right first time and I used his advice when I started out by offering my services as a club instructor back in the 80s. A little out of date in places now certainly, but as a robust training scheme for model flying, I don't think it's been bettered.

Edited January 11 by Cuban8

[GrumpyGnome]

1 hour ago, Rich Griff said:

5 mins flying time, 8 circuits then land ?

 

Mind you, take off to extra hieght, idle motor and "glide' for a bit, throttle up, gain hieght, repeat until "timed out" then land, but leaving sufficient file fuel for at least one aborted landing and go around again...

 

Unless is was super aerobatic and fast jobby, 5 mins or so would not be enough for me

Nor I. But neither of us is learning a new skill ........... 🙂

[Jon H]

4 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

Everyone is different. Think of learning to drive - some people get through it with only a minimum of trouble and real effort, whereas others will take ages to get to grips with it and some never do.

In my experience, I didn't necessarily find youngsters complete naturals at learning model flying and conversely, a couple of more senior types who were very good indeed.

 

In my experience there are (generally) two types of people. Those natural talent in a given skill, and those without it. 

 

I have taught naturals to fly and also plenty of non naturals too. The funny thing is, the non naturals ultimately tend to crash less and make fewer mistakes. The reason is that a natural pilot will whizz through their training and skip many of the basics as it just came easily. There was no need to teach (for example) the itemised procedure for a barrel roll as they just did it first time and it was pretty good so things moved on, without that lesson on planning things out ahead of time. Then with a touch of over confidence they stray into area's where their natural ability is not enough and the model ends up a crumpled heap. The non natural pilot has to work in a more procedural fashion, fly by the numbers so to speak and use their brain and careful adherence to step by step methodology to get them by as they lack the ability to just make it up as they go along. 

 

This is not a problem though as the non natural pilot can then brush up their skills within the framework of their various drills and procedures and ultimately may be able to out fly our natural pilot friend who is just winging it, making mistakes and not really sure why as they lack the core skills framework of our diligent non natural pilot. The best pilots are clearly a blend of the two. 

 

One of the chaps at my club who i have been helping with a large Spitfire is absolutely a non natural. That's no disrespect to the guy, its just a fact and one i suspect he would freely admit if it was put to him. What is also a fact is that he has responded very well to a methodical/procedural approach to flying the model and is now quite proficient with it. Proficient to the point where his landings are consistently better than many 'natural' pilots i have seen who have a crack at warbirds. He can now safely operate a model he never thought he would be able to fly. It just needed some training and a change of mindset. With that methodical framework in place there is less reliance on pure flying skill, which in turn keeps the model in the air long enough to learn the skills. 

 

 

On the rolling the wrong way, dont worry, i would imagine everyone has done it. As for a cure, its simply practice. Also, as is a theme, think ahead. You did a left turn, so chances are you need to move the stick right to level off. Have that in your mind before you start the left turn until your ability to assess the orientation naturally improves. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rich Griff]

True, and we are all different...

 

My initial rC training was done on a 52 inch r + e powered glider and r + e 72 inch s/soarer.

 

Both models and I being coached by a trusted well experienced pilot.

 

Thanks Frank ( the paint ).

 

Keeping both planes well up wind floating about with Frank suggesting " now turn to the left keeping the nose up" etc. until I could do passable circuits, figure of eights etc. from all sides. Dummy approaches, lower each time until "this time land but don't forget to flair..." Etc.

 

All these days where a bit windy with longish flights, 10 mins plus.

 

Soaring flights were much longer with the plane "parked" in lift whilest i had a short mental "rest".

 

Only two channels to worry about. Prop the dipping wing was firmly lodged in my head. At first I said it out loud, then only in my head until it became instinct, second nature, automatic if you will 

 

I flew the socks off both models and progressed onto the hiboy....

 

There have been times when I did get a little disirientated when seeing model side on, is it slightly pointing away from me or towards me ?

 

Eventually the flights became more fluid, more flowing, which comes with practise.

 

So toto, we have all been where you are at present. Get more stick time and batteries, and get the IC powered model up and running.

 

A good trick we had at the club was to "fly backwards" at hieght, which should illustrate the wind speed at the flying site, penrhos, llyn peninsula, and hell's mouth area for sloping.

[Rich Griff]

Ps, don't let the cold in....

 

Dickies do a good quilted overall, not quite as good as a Walls Zerozone one ( 8 dollars at the time in wallmart, only allowed to bring into the country in very small amounts, singles, a second skin until finally fully worn out some 32 years later !!!!  ) But worth the money and warm. Fingerless gloves, a tx "muff" to keep the wind away and a good peaked hat with furry side panel ear covers.....don't forget the sun glasses.....and good socks.

 

Yep you guest it, powered plane fight box on wheels, soarer tx box in back pack.

[Jon H]

9 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

My initial rC training was done on a 52 inch r + e powered glider and r + e 72 inch s/soarer

 

I laugh looking back at my training. We (my brothers and i) did have some 2 channel gliders, but most training was done on my Dad's flair Puppeteer and CAP Harrow twin engine bomber! No buddy box either, just a futaba challenger tx passed between my Dad and me. I also stole flights on anything a club member would let me drive around. I remember my first landing distinctly. A flair cub i was borrowing suffered a deadstick and i went to hand the tx back to its owner. he just said 'it stopped while you were flying, you land it'. Not having much choice in the matter i just kept going in the direction i already was and put it down in the grazing meadow around the strip. It was a bit of a walk to get it, but it was undamaged so i called that a win. And i was...8? 10 maybe? Cant remember.  A chap called Brian Fox would let me fly his aerostar 62 patternship. i can picture it now. It had a white fuselage, pale pink wings and i think a red top irvine engine... how on earth can i remember that so many years later?! Brian would also share his apple's with us kids. Slices were cut off using an APC prop designated for the task. 

 

I flew an absolute hodge podge of different models back then, with little formal training, but it was an MFA Cessna bought from Maplin's in slough when i was about 12 that really set me on my path. White fibreglass fuselage, red wings, OS25LA for power. I did my first proper takeoff with that model (which i can also remember like yesterday) my first roll (which scared the life out of me as i was afraid my dad would see it and tell me off!), and it became the first model i really had the confidence to throw around. I also got a 2 channel ben buckle style model with PAW diesel at a club bring and buy for a tenner as it was left over at the end of the sale and no one else wanted it. This model taught me a great deal and sparked my interest in engines as this diesel was something completely different.

 

Its brought a genuine smile to my face just thinking back to my brothers and i as kids running around fetching planes ditched in the crop, flying, messing about building forts or whatever in the woods behind the field and generally having a great time.

[Jason Channing]

It was my son who taught me that when flying towards yourself move the stick to the lower wing as it looks more interesting, its just another take on a Derry turn.

[Simon Chaddock]

Jon

That reminds me of a simple 'stick' fuselage 48" span glider I designed and built over 55 years ago. It actually flew quite well when compared to most of the small KK kits I had built up to then.

I then cut back the nose and stuck my trusty Mill 75 on the front. Took it to the largest field I had access to, fired up the Mills, waited until the fuel had nearly run out and launched it pointing upwards. With a near 1:1 thrust weight it spiralled up very nicely to a height totally new to me. I would guess about 400 ft. The Mills cut out and off it went slowly drifting down wind. It eventually disappeared just short of a line of houses beyond the field.

My only hope was to walk round to the front of the houses and knock on the door of the houses near where it had disappeared and hope it was in their back garden. In those days a small boy knocking on the door and asking to look for his plane did not seem too unusual so they willingly let me in. Sure enough there is was undamaged on the lawn just short of a pram with the baby still asleep in it! Thanked the occupier profusely although I did not mention its proximity to the pram..

Never flew it powered again. Only modest rubber power from then on!            

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, Simon Chaddock said:

Jon

That reminds me of a simple 'stick' fuselage 48" span glider I designed and built over 55 years ago. It actually flew quite well when compared to most of the small KK kits I had built up to then.

I then cut back the nose and stuck my trusty Mill 75 on the front. Took it to the largest field I had access to, fired up the Mills, waited until the fuel had nearly run out and launched it pointing upwards. With a near 1:1 thrust weight it spiralled up very nicely to a height totally new to me. I would guess about 400 ft. The Mills cut out and off it went slowly drifting down wind. It eventually disappeared just short of a line of houses beyond the field.

My only hope was to walk round to the front of the houses and knock on the door of the houses near where it had disappeared and hope it was in their back garden. In those days a small boy knocking on the door and asking to look for his plane did not seem too unusual so they willingly let me in. Sure enough there is was undamaged on the lawn just short of a pram with the baby still asleep in it! Thanked the occupier profusely although I did not mention its proximity to the pram..

Never flew it powered again. Only modest rubber power from then on!            

 

I know what you mean, Simon. When playing cricket on our concrete backyard I hit a ball straight through next door's (open) bedroom window.  I just went and asked for the ball back and received it without a murmur 🙂   We had rules - hit out the yard and it was 6 and out!  One handed catch off the roof - out! 🙂  Tennis balls of course.

[Jon H]

3 hours ago, Simon Chaddock said:

With a near 1:1 thrust weight it spiralled up very nicely to a height totally new to me. I would guess about 400 ft. The Mills cut out and off it went slowly drifting down wind. It eventually disappeared just short of a line of houses beyond the field.

 

When my dad and his brother were kids they had a similar model with an ED Pepe on it. Usually it got to a few hundred feet and that was it, but on one occasion they accidentally got the tuning right on the engine and it shot off like a rocket never to be seen again....at least, until more than a year later when it was found on top of a Vulcan hangar at Scampton by a chap cleaning the roof. My Grandfather was a warrant officer on the station and so my dad was eventually reunited with the model.

 

2 hours ago, Geoff S said:

When playing cricket on our concrete backyard I hit a ball straight through next door's (open) bedroom window.

 

Once upon a time my dad and i were test running a dc sabre on the bench when it escaped and flew over the fence and straight through the hedge. Our neighbour was out so a covert mission was undertaken to find it!

[Arthur Harris]

22 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

And you dont know the half of it. I would sabotage my students buddy box to make sure they did their control checks correctly.

Well, I'm glad you're not at my club. I'm not sure as a novice I would trust an instructor who stitched me up.

[Jon H]

10 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

Well, I'm glad you're not at my club. I'm not sure as a novice I would trust an instructor who stitched me up.

 

As i explained in my post, that was not the purpose of it. Have another read. 

[Rich Griff]

Hi Jon, yes a good test to see if the pupil is listening, awake and brain is in gear.

[leccyflyer]

11 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

Well, I'm glad you're not at my club. I'm not sure as a novice I would trust an instructor who stitched me up.

I don't think Jon is stitching anyone up - it's an important step in a beginner's training that they get to learn to deal with the unexpected. My instructor used to always put the aeroplane in an awkward position at some point in my lesson, to see how I would handle getting out of that situation. Being on the buddy box it was completely safe to do so and it's a fact that when learning, a lesson that you take from experience is often a better lesson than one where you are just told the answer. That is certainly the case as regards model flying.

[PDB]

As a recently trained newbie I can only concur with having some fun with your model while in the learning circuits, takeoff and landing phase. My instructor could sort of tell when I was getting bored so had me doing loops, rolls and stall turns early on which were also great practice (with height) for recovering the model from unexpected positions. I'm a slow learner however this greatly improved my confidence in myself and the model however it took me some time and and more than a few repairs to nail my landings for which I am now accused of being boring as they're a non-event.

 

I've found when the sun is high and you have a blue sky with broken clouds orientation is easier, as the sun drops later in the evening or year the model sometimes turns into a silhouette so this might not be helping at this time of year. Also Totos unfortunate interruptions in learning to fly will also not be helping, I found at the right time of year with a decent break in the weather progress accelerates as you can get more consistent stick time.

Edited January 12 by PDB

[toto]

Well .... the shout has gone out ......

 

Between 11 and 12 tomorrow.

 

I'll need to get my transmitter batteries charged tonight in the shed with my mate John Smith.

 

Looking forward to getting airborne again.

 

Toto

[toto]

Transmitter batteries charged..... ready to go.

 

I charged my main batteries on Wednesday night .... maybe a bit premature as the shed is cold and I'll bet my bottom teeth that the charge will have fell off slightly even since then.

 

If I put my battery checker on the batteries and they have dropped to 96 or 96% ...... is this a major issue or should I do another top up charge again ?

 

I usually charge them the night before but was not sure that I would be available to do so this week. As it turns out I am.

 

Opinions welcome.

 

Toto

[Ron Gray]

90+ % is fine, no need to top up. If a battery of mine is showing >80% I’ll use it but be careful about how long I fly.

[toto]

Thanks for that Ron.

 

As I said, I usually charge the night before and of course the cold weather won't help.

 

Toto

[leccyflyer]

How cold is the shed Toto?

 

You need to be very careful if charging Lipos at low temperatures, such as close to freezing, as the risk is you that if you charge them to peak voltage at that low temperature you will end up with them over maximum voltage, such that when they are returned to a warmer temperature the voltage may go over 4.2v/cell. On that basis it isn't advised to get them right up to 4.2v/cell, you can afford to let them be indicating a little less than that, as a safety margin.

[toto]

 

Hi Leccyflyer,

 

Thanks for that explanation. All good to know. I'm just about to hit the shed to put a tester over all 6 batteries.

 

If they are say 95% or above, I'll leave them as they are and hopefully they wont drop significantly more prior to use tomorrow.

 

I'll come back shortly with my findings.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[Ron Gray]

I never charge my Li-Pos to 4.20v, 4.19v is the max I ever go to.