Soldering/binding piano wire.

[Basil]

I am a relative newbie. I have found that the soldering of 'Bound' piano wire difficult. I have used different types of wire and flux but still very hit and miss. How do you tin piano wire with 100 % success  , and what's  the best binding wire. (I had thought uncoated copper). Finally whats the best flux, even tried Bakers fluid!!!!.

Thanks in advance Bas

[Tom Gaskin 1]

I use Tinned Copper Wire (TCW) and acid-cored solder, combined with meticulous cleaning of the wire to start with, and a 100 watt soldering iron. The cooled job then gets thoroughly scrubbed in hot soapy water to remove the flux residue. 6swg piano wire is a cinch!

 

Bakers fluid should do the trick if the job is clean and the iron powerful enough.

 

Tom

[Engine Doctor]

I have a strong copper sulphate solution  used for plating . Occasionaly i use a drop as flux on difficult  piano wire . I dont kn9w what causes the occasional pi3ce of piano wire to be hard to soft solder but the copper sulphate usually does the trick. Piano wire is not the quality it once was and prossinly containly all dorts of junk and 8s just sold as piano wire. 

[Skippers Walker]

I certainly endorse Tom Gaskin's comment about rigorous cleaning to ensure a good solder joint. For the heavier gauge wire I often use silver solder, flux and a gas torch to make a really strong 'bind'. Again cleaning the materials is absolutely paramount for success.

Good luck Basil, try a few practice joints too before attempting the real thing?

SW

[Martin McIntosh]

I have published a lot on this topic in the past because a large part of my job involved professional standard soldering. With piano wire, you need to file it clean (applies particularly to plated linkage rods) because sandpaper is not good enough. I have always used Templers Telux flux which is none corrosive but I ran out and could only get it on ebay, advertised as retro flux! Something wrong with that tin I bought because it does nothing. Get a none corrosive type from a plumbers merchant; plumbers do not go round cleaning up water pipes.

The diameter of the TCW is not too important but you must run some fine sandpaper down it first.

I still have my professional iron but at £250-£300 is way out of reach of most modellers. The tip, would you believe is only 3mm but handles 6 swg with ease because it is a thermostatically controlled high temperature one. A 100W iron should be OK though.

I should have some example pics but they are not on this PC.

[Bruce Collinson]

Funnily enough I’ve just wasted an hour failing to solder two bits of wire together, one a commercial tail wheel wire and the other I suspect an off cut from a threaded pushrod.   It was the latter which wouldn’t tin at all despite repeated applications of a file.   Reading Martin’s comments above, I suspect the pushrod is an odd alloy or composition.   I need to dig out some proper piano wire and hope it’s not Cheesium.

BTC

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

When I worked on boats ( real ones ) we used to dissolve a boat anode in hydrochloric acid as a flux.

[Dale Bradly]

Just reiterating the above messages:

Cleanliness is paramount, and this can not be overstated. Clean it. Proper. And not just of your workpiece, but also the solder and the soldering iron. Anyone who has done any commercial/professional grade soldering will tell you that they spent more time cleaning stuff than sticking stuff. If in doubt, clean it more. Filing/scraping, alcohol (IPA) wiping. Items such as piano wire will have all manner of manufacturing residues, anti corrosion coatings etc on the surface which needs to be removed. 

And heat, or lack thereof, is one of the biggest issues facing the home user. It takes a surprising amount of heat to get items such as piano wire u/c assemblies hot enough, because the heat just wicks away down the wire, and into the vice/pliers you're holding it with. A bigger soldering iron for a shorter time is almost always the best way to go, spending a long time trying with too small of a soldering iron will only lead to poor results or even damage. Another common error is replacing battery connectors: rushing to "not heat up the battery" or using too small an iron (or temp if adjustable) to "not heat up the battery", and the end result is poor: because ironically the battery got heated too much while waiting for the wire to get hot enough; a melted connector for the same reason; or a poor/partially soldered connection prone to failure due to rushing. Lots of heat would have got it done quicker and betterer all round. 

And get decent lead solder, not the lightweight leadfree going to save the world rubbish. I'm also a fan of decent proper (very possibly corrosive) flux on piano wire/metal items.

[Bruce Collinson]

Have used Fluxite for years with no issues but it had no effect on the dodgy wire.

BTC

[Geoff S]

7 hours ago, Dale Bradly said:

Just reiterating the above messages:

Cleanliness is paramount, and this can not be overstated. Clean it. Proper. And not just of your workpiece, but also the solder and the soldering iron. Anyone who has done any commercial/professional grade soldering will tell you that they spent more time cleaning stuff than sticking stuff. If in doubt, clean it more. Filing/scraping, alcohol (IPA) wiping. Items such as piano wire will have all manner of manufacturing residues, anti corrosion coatings etc on the surface which needs to be removed. 

And heat, or lack thereof, is one of the biggest issues facing the home user. It takes a surprising amount of heat to get items such as piano wire u/c assemblies hot enough, because the heat just wicks away down the wire, and into the vice/pliers you're holding it with. A bigger soldering iron for a shorter time is almost always the best way to go, spending a long time trying with too small of a soldering iron will only lead to poor results or even damage. Another common error is replacing battery connectors: rushing to "not heat up the battery" or using too small an iron (or temp if adjustable) to "not heat up the battery", and the end result is poor: because ironically the battery got heated too much while waiting for the wire to get hot enough; a melted connector for the same reason; or a poor/partially soldered connection prone to failure due to rushing. Lots of heat would have got it done quicker and betterer all round. 

And get decent lead solder, not the lightweight leadfree going to save the world rubbish. I'm also a fan of decent proper (very possibly corrosive) flux on piano wire/metal items.

 

Part of my Radio Servicing certificate I did back in 1958 (gulp!) was a soldering test on electronic components on a small aluminium chassis with tag strips.  Not knowing exactly what would be required before the test I sneaked in a few inches of Multicore Arax solder, which has a corrosive flux, just in case.  I didn't need it 🙂

 

For heavy soldering I use a 120 watt Henley Solon I've had since I was a teenager over 60 years ago and the last lot I did a few weeks ago I just used lead/tin cored solder and it worked perfectly.  Cleanliness is important but I only get very thorough if I have a problem.  Also don't use the iron to melt the solder - the joint as a whole needs to be hot enough for it to flow properly.  My dad used to tell me off for carrying the solder on the iron when I was soldering components in the confined space of an old fashioned valve TV but I still did it 🙂

 

When I worked at GEC in the 1960s I used to walk through the area where they were assembling telephone exchange racks and they used copper irons heated over a gas flame for those critical joints.  That was old school even then.

[Basil]

Thank you all for your replies. While waiting for your advise I have been making more attempts at tinning the Piano wire. It is obvious that the secret is in the surface prep. I have made a real effort to that end.

  I have tried using a file, wire brush, wire wool , wiping with IPA .Using plumbers flux(Does not even look clean, unlike the use on copper pipe)variuos other fluxes. the only  method that works on most not all, attempts is to soak in 'Bakers fluid' , an acid I believe.  Thats after all those surface preps.At best  I get say about 75% of solder ( Old fashion lead based) taking to the surface. To get good coverage more than one attempt is required. In between I have to revert to filing and reimmersion in Bakers again.  I am using a small torch as a heat source.I am at the moment talking only tinning, I am still waiting for some copper wire for the binding. I know that once tinned the soldering with just flow, no probs, its just this stage that creates all these probs.

I have over the last couple of years never ended up with anything that looks like the work seen by other people on this forum!!!!!

Bas( Still puzzled  why it wont tin easily)

[Andy Stephenson]

Using a flame maybe burning the flux and carbonising it on the surface of the piano wire. It's even possible to burn flux if using an iron that's too hot. A flame can also end up annealing the wire making it soft and bendy rather than springy.

[Basil]

Andy, you may have a point. Further tests. Thanks to everyone the contributed. I have had some piano wire soaking in Bakers fluid overnight, now looks very clean.First a wipe over with IPA then try with an iron rather than a flame or derivations!!!.

Bas

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Basil

[Engine Doctor]

On 19/06/2023 at 06:33, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

When I worked on boats ( real ones ) we used to dissolve a boat anode in hydrochloric acid as a flux.

Thats what Bakers fluid is.

 

Using a flame is cuasing the problem. Look for either a big old fashioned vopper soldering iron that you heat up on a flame or get hold of a more powerful electric iron .

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Engine Doctor

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

1 minute ago, Engine Doctor said:

Thats what Bakers fluid is.

Thanks, never too late to learn,

[Gunnar Borseth]

A decent hot air gun works well. 

[Nigel R]

I've used a torch for piano wire. You can't let the wire sit in the flame. A few seconds of heat, remove the torch, let it disperse into the wire for a few more seconds, then repeat. Apply the solder without the flame. I also put a bit extra flux on the wire as it is getting close to the right temperature. Works OK for me. 

[Basil]

I have noted the comments re Flame guns.What size electric would you suggest as there's a lot of heat required for these jobs ?. I have a Weller gun  but it is woefully inadequate when using piano wire, to much mass to heat up . Have to have a think about this one. Thanks for your suggestions. 

Bas

Edited June 21, 2023 by Basil

[Basil]

Just to clarify. the Weller gun I have is 100va????, can only be used for 12secs every minute. I think NOT suitable for piano wire. I think I need a 100 wat iron!!!

 Would you recommend a 'Gun' OR 'Pencil' Type. There are 100/200/300 watt iron advertised on the net. I only require an iron for heavy wire soldering .

Bas

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Basil

[Engine Doctor]

For heavier soldering jobs an iron of 85/100w would be good also a large copper tip is needed as that act as a heat reserviour for a quick transfer of heat to the object to be soldered. 

Before spending loads of money try using you torch but heat the wire away from the jiont and let the heat travel yo the joint . Be careful though not to overheat the wire as it will loose its temper.

Worth a try although a proper soldering iron is best as piano wire will keep its springy qualities/temper.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Engine Doctor

[2.4g Shaun]

100 va  is 100 Watts.  

You calculate wattage by multiplying volts and amps, hence VA

 

Shaun.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I made a decent field one from a Peugeot diesel heater plug, a copper rivet at the end and a bit of helicopter tail rotor tube as a Handel, so it will work on any 12v car battery, back when I did 1/10 scale electric cars for changing motors, less than 20 seconds to heat up.

[Engine Doctor]

I like tha idea 👍.

[RottenRow]

On 21/06/2023 at 09:22, Basil said:

Just to clarify. the Weller gun I have is 100va????, can only be used for 12secs every minute. I think NOT suitable for piano wire.

The Weller soldering gun works with piano wire, as long as the cleaning regime mentioned above by others is carried out.

You can go over the ‘12 secs in every minute’ limitation a bit if you are only making a few joints. I have done so many times.

Also, whatever iron is used, it does help to initially melt a bit of solder on the iron bit and put it in contact with the joint to be soldered, this improved the transfer of heat from the iron to the joint. Then feed the solder onto the heated joint (not the iron) and it should wick along the joint.

Brian.

[Basil]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I have ordered  a large 200watt iron and are awaiting delivery. I was going for a 150 watt but decided to get the bigger one.

I will be returning to update the post as and when .

Bas