Enforcement of model flying regulations

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

New topic created for OT posts

 

VARIOUS OFF TOPIC POSTS SPLIT FROM CAA PRICE INCREASE THREAD

[GaryW]

 

On 05/12/2023 at 07:43, steve too said:

 

Currently I need to be a member of an association with an article 16 authorisation to do so.

 

Actually you don't... As article 16 authorisation is in law, its not exclusive to to only BMFA Members, & BMFA Affiliated Clubs ,, It's a legal requirement where ever a person flies rc models from park fliers, to planes & helicopters & drones to slope soarers, basically anything above 250grams whether you fly at the local park,, off the side of a hill or on private land with the land owners permission just as the CAA registration is also a legal requirement as will Remote ID be a legal requirement when it final comes into force

 

My advice would be if you disagree with paying for either BMFA cover or CAA Registration then RID when it comes in or all of those those things then you have 2 very simple choices,,,, Stop your membership to such associations & clubs and go your own way or give up the hobby and if you disagree with the costs this hobby does and will continue to incur then again you have 2 simple choices .... Either pay those costs and continue to enjoy the hobby or dont pay the costs get caught and prosecuted for flying outside or the legal requirements  and then give up the hobby... End of the day only you can decide which way you will go with this hobby

[Futura57]

1 hour ago, J D 8 said:

   Right then, I am going to build a 117, a B2, an F35 and a Fokker Eindecker with translucent covering.😀

Stealth. I like it 🤣

[Keith Billinge]

I spent 30years as a copper in London. When I joined we went out of our way to leave a clean list for the next shift, zero outstanding calls. We dealt with all the calls we could and went out and did our own stops and generated our own arrests; demand was different then. There were no Mobile phones in the 1980's and 999 calls were rare. People did not get offended on social media and cry "Hate Crime!"

 

When I left 6-7 years ago, the lists of outstanding calls for help, each day, for each division, stood at 50-100 calls each and every day. The calls would be priorotised on an emergency basis, which meant I would spend each and every shift racing to the next most urgent emergency. No time any more for motorists doing red lights, shoplifters, petty thefts, minor punch ups etc etc etc.........I am ashamed to say Policing in this country is smashed to bits and there is now so much demand and so few coppers actually answering calls, that as long as you dont kill anybody, nobody is coming to enforce stupid, complicated laws about our "toy planes".

Are witnesses and suspects going to hang around for the 6-7 days it will take for coppers to arrive?
All of this legislation is not only flawed it's unenforceable. It wont stop a single bad actor, or catch a single criminal who wasn't already breaking the existing criminal law.

 

I hate it! I want to fly my toy planes freely and safely without government interference.

 

KB

Edited December 8, 2023 by Keith Billinge

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I’m sure the Flying Squad won’t see taking on any spot checks as part of their duties but woe betide anyone involved in an incident that comes under the spotlight if they aren’t compliant. 

[Outrunner]

I'm certain that nobody would be prosecuted for no number on their model or no RID or whatever, but the crunch will come if there is an insurance claim or serious accident and somebody is hurt, then the brown stuff will hit the fan because you've not followed all the regulations.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Martin Harris - Moderator
Substituted language more suitable for this forum.

[Don Fry]

Keith, I too was a copper. I ended up doing and managing forensic crime scene investigation. As they say, no one cares until some one is dead. Then the teams roll in and it grinds the problem very small. The CAA people are the same, except when I have worked with them, they are (or were) just a little sloppy about cross contamination issues. But only a little. 

[Ron Gray]

1 hour ago, Outrunner said:

I'm certain that nobody would be prosecuted for no number on their model or no RID or whatever, but the crunch will come if there is an insurance claim or serious accident and somebody is hurt, then the brown stuff will hit the fan because you've not followed all the regulations.

Personally I don’t think that not having ID or RID will affect an insurance claim.

[GaryW]

7 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Personally I don’t think that not having ID or RID will affect an insurance claim.

 

Any operation that is outside of whats legally required including ID & RID when finally in force I'm sure wud effect any insurance claim in the same way as someone driving without a license,,,,,, No license tax or mot renders the insurance policy as void/invalid so I wud guess flying with out ID & Rid when in force wud also render model insurance as void/invalid.... However I could be wrong

[Ron Gray]

Driving a car without tax does not necessarily void your insurance, it very much depends on your insurer.

[GaryW]

1 minute ago, Ron Gray said:

Driving a car without tax does not necessarily void your insurance, it very much depends on your insurer.

 

Considering you cant tax a car without  MOT AND Insurance kind of self answers that one Ron

[RottenRow]

16 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Personally I don’t think that not having ID or RID will affect an insurance claim.

 

2 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Driving a car without tax does not necessarily void your insurance, it very much depends on your insurer.

 

Surely if the law at the time of an incident requires these, and the flier involved in the accident isn't complying with that law, then the insurance company has a good reason not to settle the claim. That is unless the insurer specifically states otherwise on the policy documentation; I can't imagine that will happen.

 

At the last BMFA AGM that I attended (2019) a similar question was raised then, about the insurance position if a model flier didn't possess or complete the relevant proof of competency, which was just being introduced at that time. The answer from the insurer's representative was along the lines of they would probably not be concerned about this, but would not put that into writing.

 

The only way of knowing the position would be the first person who finds himself in that position... not a good time to realise that one isn't insured after all.

 

Brian.

[GaryW]

2 minutes ago, RottenRow said:

 

 

Surely if the law at the time of an incident requires these, and the flier involved in the accident isn't complying with that law, then the insurance company has a good reason not to settle the claim. 

 

 

 

Exactly

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by GaryWebb

[Don Fry]

I think how insurance works, third parties can claim on that policy. But if you are not following reasonable terms, the insurer can come after you for every penny you own, to recover their expenses.

[Ron Gray]

1 hour ago, GaryWebb said:

 

Considering you cant tax a car without  MOT AND Insurance kind of self answers that one Ron

But if you don’t tax for the whole year!

[Learner]

40 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

But if you don’t tax for the whole year!

Then it has to be sorned. 

My motorbike has to be taxed AND insured unless sorned even if its kept in the garage and not used.

[Ron Gray]

5 minutes ago, Learner said:

Then it has to be sorned. 

My motorbike has to be taxed AND insured unless sorned even if its kept in the garage and not used.

Do you think someone would worry about that?

[ken anderson.]

Flying regs will be inforced by who?....no one would be my answer....it's a fact of life that everything we do is governed by some sort of rule and regulation ....by been a member of a recognised organisation gives us some peace of mind .....but at the end of the day....it's up to each individual to do what he does following the rules etc...I cant see the point of this thread....even though I've added a comment..

 

Ken Anderson ne...1 ....rules and regs dept.

[Rich Griff]

DVLA or what ever they are called this week will send you a letter informing you of tax, insurance and sorn stuff.

 

They will point out failure to obey the rules will result in a big fine of many £'s.....even if the vehicle is in hibernation off road somewhere...

 

Ask me how I know

 

 

 

 

[ken anderson.]

Rich,your right.....I've seen cars lying around on the streets for months with no tax,mot.

 

Talking to someone the other day,he joked it would be cheaper to take a chance and drive without insurance and maybe get caught and fined £200....than pay some of the prices people are getting charged at the min..

 

Ken Anderson...ne....1... motoring dept.

[Rich Griff]

As to flying regs etc...

 

I remember it being said on a webinar...."the caa does not own the sky".....make of that what you will.

 

Model flying and not obeying all the rules to the letter will incure no wroth until something goes wrong like an incident involving people and the authorities, as things stand.

 

I cannot see any cops being posted near to any possible model fying site, legal or otherwise, on the off chance of catching any "no compliant" model flier, but as we know cops can and do use "slowly slowly catchy monkey" techniques, as well as patrols and "local inteligence'...

 

The use of on board model/aircraft identification and location/height/flying data etc. Broadcast by the model and aircraft, when in flight, detected, processed and deemed to be of interest to the authorities by the authorities, then expect a visit from them.

 

Any and All other flying machines  seen in the sky would be deemed either UFO or foe. Wartime iff type thing.

 

A nation radar system ??

 

A radar system to highligh presence of an unregistered aircraft, with a mass of 250g or more......

 

Probably a blind eye approach unless a "nuisance" is reported or a person/property is damaged and reported.

 

Any rules broken, expect insurance to be void, and official action to take place.

 

Obey the rules to be ok.

 

What worries me is the end of possible slope soaring sites, local flying sites and country members status...

 

 

 

[Rich Griff]

Driving a vehicle on the road illegally is very antisocial and a no brainer these days, anpr and cameras everywhere, unless you can use all back road routes, not doable these days...

[Geoff S]

40 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

As to flying regs etc...

 

I remember it being said on a webinar...."the caa does not own the sky".....make of that what you will.

 

.....

 

Nor does anyone own the sea.  No-one can stop you launching and sailing a boat, provided the bit of land you use before being afloat isn't private or restricted.  I sailed across the North Sea and no-one asked me if I had any documentation and neither did the Dutch authorities when we landed in Vlissingen  (although for my own security I had studied navigation 🙂 ).  The sky seems to be different - perhaps because a collision in the air is more likely to be serious than one at sea - though not necessarily.  At least a maritime accident is unlikely to affect totally unconnected people like an air accident can do.

 

I am, by nature or upbringing, a rule obeyer, so I've done everything to ensure I fly my models legally and responsibly.  I hope I'll be able to continue.  I know I won't be flying for much longer, so I don't expect to be affected by regulation change but I still hope other, younger enthusiasts will be able to after I'm gone.

[kevin b]

All this avoiding / breaking laws is ok, but enventually somebody will find a way making money from policing it (probably lawyers).

[GaryW]

3 hours ago, ken anderson. said:

Rich,your right.....I've seen cars lying around on the streets for months with no tax,mot.

 

Talking to someone the other day,he joked it would be cheaper to take a chance and drive without insurance and maybe get caught and fined £200....than pay some of the prices people are getting charged at the min..

 

Ken Anderson...ne....1... motoring dept.

 

Current penalty for driving with no insurance is:-

 

fixed penalty of £300 and 6 penalty points if you’re caught driving a vehicle you’re not insured to drive.

 

If the case goes to court you could get:

an unlimited fine or

disqualified from driving

 

The police also have the power to seize, and in some cases, destroy the vehicle that’s being driven uninsured.