Best second plane?

[Arthur Harris]

Everyone agrees the Max Thrust Riot is the best training plane for beginners. What is the best second plane? A more agile high wing plane like the Wot 4, or a low wing plane? Or would it be okay to fly a warbird with SAFE and eventually turn SAFE off? 

[Geoff S]

I like the Riot - I'm on my 3rd (don't ask!) - but I'd never claim it was the best training plane.  If you remove the steel ballast at the front and increase control throws, Riots are quite agile and fun to fly, so they can serve two roles.  I built my trainer from a kit and my second plane was a Precedent FunFly which I also built and (over) powered it with an Irvine Q40. With a Super Tigre 34 fitted, I flew it to pass my 'A' cert.  My 3rd model was a Flair SE5a with an OS52 4 stroke, which was (is) quite easy to fly, too.

 

I've never flown anything other than the tiny 400mm ws warbirds with gyros, so I wouldn't know if a warbird with SAFE technology would be O for a second plane for a beginner.  It depends on the beginner, I guess.

[GrumpyGnome]

@Arthur HarrisGosh, you do like your sweeping statements! I'm pretty sure that if you started a thread "What is the best trainer", not everyone would say Riot.

 

That notwithstanding, remove the steel ballast, increase the rates to max, have decent LiPo and the Riot becomes quite agile..... and a tad closer to it's name.

 

I have no idea whether or not you'll receive tuition for your next plane - I suspect not though, so I'd suggest a Ruckus and Acrowot are quite good - and fit your definition of sub 2k electric models. Also probably less chance of them being trashed on their maidens if you have nobody experienced to carry that out for you. 

 

My experience of small electric warbirds is that that they need the speed kept up on landing, and takeoffs can be tricky - they also need a decent runway. Bigger ones (1.5m) are easier but are outside your favoured 2kg. They also carry more inertia so minor whoopsies tend to be more serious.

 

I've no doubt people have made the leap to SAFE (or similar) equipped warbirds...... personally I am not a fan of such systems I feel they either build an over-reliance on technology, or an over confidence. 

[Brian Cooper]

The Riot can be a good second model.

Just run it on 4 cells and increase the control throws. 

 

Enjoy the dance. 👍

[Christopher Wolfe]

Maybe an Ugly Stick.

 

They can be configured to fly docile or wild and wicked.

 

Many of the later 'clone variants as I see them' such as the WOT series follow the basic design with minor mods to make them appear unique but aerodynamically they are still the same layout that Phil Kraft designed 57 years ago.

 

When you master flying it then build another one but flip the fuselage so that the wing is on the bottom, place the fin on the top and maybe fit a nose-wheel.

 

Low wing Ugly Sticks are fun.

 

Downside is that one actually has to build the model 🙃

 

* Chris *

 

 

[leccyflyer]

Wot 4.

 

Or, as others have said, rebalance, add an extra cell and adjust control throws on your Riot - which is far from the best trainer available and most certainly not regarded as thus by everyone - and then fly the wings off that, before moving on to a low winger.

[Jon H]

10 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

Everyone agrees the Max Thrust Riot is the best training plane for beginners.

 

I certainly dont. There are far better trainers than that. 

 

In any case, the riot is a wot4 rip off so switching to a wot4 would be a sideways move

[Geoff S]

53 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

I certainly dont. There are far better trainers than that. 

 

In any case, the riot is a wot4 rip off so switching to a wot4 would be a sideways move

 

The Riot is a lot of things, and you can like them or not, but what they certainly are not is a Wot4 clone.  The construction is completely different (there's a plywood skeleton inside that foam, for instance) and they're no more aerodynamically similar than any other high wing aerobatic model is.  I have both.

[Don Fry]

11 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

Everyone agrees the Max Thrust Riot is the best training plane for beginners. What is the best second plane? A more agile high wing plane like the Wot 4, or a low wing plane? Or would it be okay to fly a warbird with SAFE and eventually turn SAFE off? 

Re warbirds, or anything else for that matter, you have invested in the trainer. Fly it till you break it, or it falls apart. Tool for a job. Ditto second aircraft, ditto third probably. 
SAFE is great, can tame a beast, but learning tool, no. 
Rule  of life generally, don’t risk what you can’t afford to lose. Without tears. A lot of people leave this hobby, too much investment, not enough return, because the leaver ended up with a fleet of unsuitable machines for the skill set. 
Rant over.

[Alan Hilton]

My choice for a follow on is the acrowot .Its easy to fly and especially easy to land and will do aerobatics well 

[Geoff S]

2 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Re warbirds, or anything else for that matter, you have invested in the trainer. Fly it till you break it, or it falls apart. Tool for a job. Ditto second aircraft, ditto third probably. 
SAFE is great, can tame a beast, but learning tool, no. 
Rule  of life generally, don’t risk what you can’t afford to lose. Without tears. A lot of people leave this hobby, too much investment, not enough return, because the leaver ended up with a fleet of unsuitable machines for the skill set. 
Rant over.

 

The rule that you shouldn't risk what you can't afford to lose is possibly good from a financial POV, but not so much when you're risking the time and devotion you've given to building a model.  I really want to fly the Sopwith Pup I've spent quite a bit of money on (like when I built my cycles, I don't keep a record!) but what is going to be the real stress is the love I've grown for it because of the 100s of hours and problem-solving efforts I've put in.  When I test flew my DB Gipsy Moth a club mate remarked that it didn't seem absolutely stable in flight - the model was fine; it was my fingers that were shaking 🙂. Happily, it's still flying some years later.

[Don Fry]

Arrrrr Geoff, but after a lifetime at it, 1. Your ability to judge risk gets better. 2. You are hardened to it. 3. You like the tension that you are risking something you value. 

But, were you to break the Pup after a couple of flights, and you broke its replacement after a few more, at what point would you think, not for me.

[Eric Robson]

I never worry about flying something I've made, I've had the pleasure of making it as opposed to an ARTF, if it goes in its a waste of money. I gave up smoking to buy  my first radio gear and I know which would have been the most expensive at today's prices, I would not spend £100 a week on aeroplanes.

Good thing about building is the ability to repair it when things go wrong. 

Arthur,  take the advice of flying the riot till its worn out,  I only build warbirds but have an Acrowot for when I want to fly in a manner which is not right for scale models.

[Arthur Harris]

1 hour ago, Eric Robson said:

I never worry about flying something I've made, I've had the pleasure of making it as opposed to an ARTF, if it goes in its a waste of money. I gave up smoking to buy  my first radio gear and I know which would have been the most expensive at today's prices, I would not spend £100 a week on aeroplanes.

Good thing about building is the ability to repair it when things go wrong. 

Arthur,  take the advice of flying the riot till its worn out,  I only build warbirds but have an Acrowot for when I want to fly in a manner which is not right for scale models.

A pack of ciggies costs £13.50 at the cheapest, 20 a day over a month cost £420! I could trash a plane a month and still be in profit if I quit smoking (my New Years resolution).

Edited December 31, 2023 by Arthur Harris

[Geoff S]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Harris said:

A pack of ciggies costs £13.50 at the cheapest, 20 a day over a month cost £420! I could trash a plane a month and still be in profit if I quit smoking (my New Years resolution).

 

Really?  That much? How do people afford it?  I started smoking when I was 15 and in the Naval section of the school's CCF.  We spent a week on an anti-submarine frigate when cigarettes were a shilling (5p) for 20 and I eventually gave up in my late 20s (1960s) when they were about 2 shillings for 10 IIRC.  Makes what I spend on toys look insignificant.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Another vote for tweaking the Riot, set it up to be more capable, and improve your skills on a model you know. Improved skills widens your choice of next model, and the likelyhood it'll survive.

[Eric Robson]

3 hours ago, Geoff S said:

 

Really?  That much? How do people afford it?  I started smoking when I was 15 and in the Naval section of the school's CCF.  We spent a week on an anti-submarine frigate when cigarettes were a shilling (5p) for 20 and I eventually gave up in my late 20s (1960s) when they were about 2 shillings for 10 IIRC.  Makes what I spend on toys look insignificant.

Geoff You must have had them at armed forces price as I started in 1950 when I started work and they were 1 shilling and 6 pence for 10 and the best brands were under the counter.

[Geoff S]

2 minutes ago, Eric Robson said:

Geoff You must have had them at armed forces price as I started in 1950 when I started work and they were 1 shilling and 6 pence for 10 and the best brands were under the counter.

 

Yes, it was navy prices. We shouldn't have been sold them as cadets, but no-one bothered.  IIRC Park Drive and Woodbines were 1/5 (7P) for 10 and Senior Service etc were 1/10.  I used to buy 200 Churchman's No1 every Saturday for my father - a lot of them were given to customers or burnt out in the ashtray as he served someone. In the 1950s it was rare to be a non-smoker and many paid the price. Happily, I gave up early enough.  I can remember shops having handwritten notices on the door saying "Sorry, no cigs". 

[Fly Boy 3]

You cannot go wrong with an Acrowot. It was my second model after my Yamamoto trainer ( showing my age now). I had a ver well used Laser 62 with a 12/5 prop to start. This was the old Acrowot I built, balsa and ply. I have not flown the foam model, but I assume it is much lighter and should fly like a dream.

[Frank Skilbeck]

There's no such thing as a "best" 2nd plane, it all depends on what you want to do. Have you got a short term goal, scale warbird, precision aerobatics, etc ? different models will take you on different paths. 

 

But a Riot will take you through the BMFA B cert, so stick with that until you are comfortable with those manoeuvres.

[Arthur Harris]

3 hours ago, Oldmanflying said:

You cannot go wrong with an Acrowot. It was my second model after my Yamamoto trainer ( showing my age now). I had a ver well used Laser 62 with a 12/5 prop to start. This was the old Acrowot I built, balsa and ply. I have not flown the foam model, but I assume it is much lighter and should fly like a dream.

 

2 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

There's no such thing as a "best" 2nd plane, it all depends on what you want to do. Have you got a short term goal, scale warbird, precision aerobatics, etc ? different models will take you on different paths. 

 

But a Riot will take you through the BMFA B cert, so stick with that until you are comfortable with those manoeuvres.

I must admit I feel drawn to the Wot 4 Foam E.  Not too dissimilar to the Riot, but from what I have seen on YT videos it can fly like a scalded cat even with stock set-up and a 3s 2200.

The reasons being- if I pile it in, I still have the Riot (which I wouldn't have if I upgraded it and then crashed it), and also it has a wingspan of less than 50 inches, so I could put it on the back seat rigged. The downside of a smaller plane is obviously it is a bit smaller to see and may be a bit twitchy.

[Don Fry]

To quote, “- if I pile it in, I still have the Riot (which I wouldn't have if I upgraded it and then crashed it), and ”, 

is a good reason to buy another Riot airframe. Then the lawn darted debris can go in the new airframe, with a second no expense possibility, that the debris of 2 Riots , can be used to create a Frankenstein.

[GrumpyGnome]

Yes, the Wot4 is a bit more agile.... also smaller and lighter..... and more fragile. Good fun but check for availability of spares before you commit.

 

Given it's similar to a Riot (high wing, foam, electric, tail dragger, 4 channel) and in my experience can't do anything more than a Riot, you'll not learn much and will have 2 very similar planes to choose from.

 

But if it's what you want, go for it.

[Frank Skilbeck]

If you have a blue Riot you could always get a red one 😀

[Martin Dance 1]

I guess the keep flying what you have with some retuning of the CG throws etc is good. But you will still have a relatively light foam model. Similarly buying a foam wot 4 will leave you in the same place. For a second model I would suggest a model of similar dimension but greater mass. A wooden wot 4 for example. My reasoning is quite simple, adancing your skills as a pilot is about learning how to manage energy. I don't believe a foamy trainer does this adequately. Do you need an aerobatic model? no. you can roll, loop and fly inverted a Super 60, not prettily but it can be done.