Newbie Help - Easy Pigeon

[kc]

Yes inrunner would be better if you can find one to suit.  Rarer and often expensive.   However holes for cooling might be used for wires as well.

[leccyflyer]

6 minutes ago, Hoochykins said:

Wouldn't it make my life easier to opt for an inrunner style motor than an outrunner as this would avoid me needing to worry about the outside of the motor shell spinning and causing issues with wiring?

Yes - the easiest conversion for old gliders powered by Sp600 motors is to drop a brushless inrunner in there, use the same mounting holes and get a useful power upgrade. 4-Max have some suitable drop in replacements, which George will be able to advise on. You'll be able to save some weight by using a smaller, lighter lipo pack compared to the hefty NiCd, but you will still need it to balance, so the motor weight will help with that.

[Hoochykins]

Okay so George is the guy, what's the best way to contact him? Email, Facebook etc?

 

Also, I don't think it's actually an SP600 as that's whats in the 1.8m models, the 1.7m models have a 540 type.

Edited February 20 by Hoochykins

[kc]

To get the CG right you will slide the Lipo back and forth.   You will need a way to keep the lipo firmly in place,  most people use a Velcro strap and also Velcro on Lipo & fuselage.  A lipo that slides will change CG in flight!

[leccyflyer]

32 minutes ago, Hoochykins said:

Okay so George is the guy, what's the best way to contact him? Email, Facebook etc?

 

Also, I don't think it's actually an SP600 as that's whats in the 1.8m models, the 1.7m models have a 540 type.

540/sp600 are really not that different and the share the same mounting hole spacing - the brushless replacements are the same for both of those.

[EarlyBird]

48 minutes ago, Hoochykins said:

Okay so George is the guy, what's the best way to contact him? Email, Facebook etc?

 

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, kc said:

Yes inrunner would be better if you can find one to suit.  Rarer and often expensive.   However holes for cooling might be used for wires as well.

 

That's true, but inrunners are a lot more expensive than outrunners.  I replaced the motor on my Phoenix 2K motor glider with a Hobbyking Gliderdrive motor, which is an enclosed outrunner with connections right at the back - ideal for a slim-nosed glider.  Unfortunately, I don't think they are available now.  Just keep the connecting wires held tight away from the rotating part, or simply use the brushed motor you have.  You'll already be saving a lot of weight with the battery, and this is a learning tool, not a competition aircraft.

 

You don't need very much power if all you're going to use the motor for is to gain height and look for natural lift.  I don't think I've ever got anywhere near exhausting a 3S 2200 mAH LiPo before getting bored enough to land 🙂

[Hoochykins]

I was thinking I would have to purchase the old style battery pack to run the old brushless motor but I won't will I?

 

I know I will need a brushed ESC, will this only work with NiMH batteries or will it cover both NiMH and LiPo? Any recommendations on a cheap one?

 

No doubt if I do get the glider back in one piece I will instantly be looking to install a brushless motor but that can be my reward for not destroying it on it's first flight.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

One thing I don't recall seeing is advice to get a flyer ID and an operator ID before attempting flight.  Over the last few years, legal requirements have been introduced with substantial penalties for non-compliance.  The OP ID is a simple matter of paying a small fee but you do need to pass a (free) test to obtain a Flyer ID.  If you're serious about flying, the BMFA can provide a more relevant qualifying test (the RCC) and also handle the OP ID on your behalf.  Membership also gives very good insurance cover - highly advisable in these litigious times.

 

If you're unsure about commitment then the advice about seeking help from a club will allow them to check and test fly it for you and probably allow you to have a go at RC flying yourself.

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, Hoochykins said:

I was thinking I would have to purchase the old style battery pack to run the old brushless motor but I won't will I?

 

I know I will need a brushed ESC, will this only work with NiMH batteries or will it cover both NiMH and LiPo? Any recommendations on a cheap one?

 

No doubt if I do get the glider back in one piece I will instantly be looking to install a brushless motor but that can be my reward for not destroying it on it's first flight.

 

The esc doesn't 'know' the source of its energy as long as it's within its voltage range.  Use whatever battery you choose but a 3S 2200 LiPo is very popular and a roughly uniform dimension.

[Frank Day]

If not already covered an Overlander brushless inrunner BM400 and 30a esc or similar may be a drop in item, I used a pair of their 400's to convert my Robbe Concorde 28mm diameter I think. fitted perfectly the the old brushed location.  https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm400-v3-2845-09-2100kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

Or BM600 https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/inrunners/bm600-v3-3650-09-1500kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

An inrunner may help to maintain the original CG, as already mentioned they tend to be heavier than the equivalent outrunner 

Edited February 21 by Frank Day
missed something

[Outrunner]

10 hours ago, Hoochykins said:

I was thinking I would have to purchase the old style battery pack to run the old brushless motor but I won't will I?

 

I know I will need a brushed ESC, will this only work with NiMH batteries or will it cover both NiMH and LiPo? Any recommendations on a cheap one?

 

No doubt if I do get the glider back in one piece I will instantly be looking to install a brushless motor but that can be my reward for not destroying it on it's first flight.

 

If you decide to keep your brushed motor I have a box of brushed ESC's under my bench, you can have the one for the cost of postage. Don't expect much in performance from a brushed motor but with a lightweight lipo battery pack it might be ok. Back in the the day when I flew electric gliders using a brushed motor and nicads power to weights ratio was marginal.

 

[Hoochykins]

10 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

One thing I don't recall seeing is advice to get a flyer ID and an operator ID before attempting flight.  Over the last few years, legal requirements have been introduced with substantial penalties for non-compliance.  The OP ID is a simple matter of paying a small fee but you do need to pass a (free) test to obtain a Flyer ID.  If you're serious about flying, the BMFA can provide a more relevant qualifying test (the RCC) and also handle the OP ID on your behalf.  Membership also gives very good insurance cover - highly advisable in these litigious times.

 

If you're unsure about commitment then the advice about seeking help from a club will allow them to check and test fly it for you and probably allow you to have a go at RC flying yourself.

 

 

10 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

 

 

I have a drone which I had to get the operator ID for although it is below the 250g, I will make sure I'm fully legal before I do any flying.

Edited February 21 by Hoochykins

[GrumpyGnome]

If you use a 2S Lipo with that brushed motor, it may not last very long as typically, they were designed for 6 volts max.....

[Hoochykins]

Okay, I was starting with the motor then working back to get each piece matched up but as I am leaving the old can motor in I guess I will start with the battery and work backwards.

 

I will do a bit of research into LiPo batteries as I know absolutely nothing about them but what key things should I be looking out for when choosing one? Also specifically to the old brushed motor?

 

I've checked and can't find any specific stats on the old motor but I guess they were generic 540/550 (600) brushed motors back in the day?

[Tom Gaskin 1]

These generic motors ran on six or seven cell NiCads, and providing you kept the plastic end cap (the brush holders) cool you could run them on eight cells. So either two or three cell LiPos will work depending on the cell count / voltage limit on you esc.

 

The standard propeller hub on these models accepts the Graupner or Aeronaut blades so you can still experiment with prop size - just swap-out the soft hinge bolts for M2 steel cap head bolts - we used to see high revs bend the hinge bolts and then destroy the prop/spinner, followed by the front of the model!

 

Tom

[Hoochykins]

From the suggestions and checking the specs etc I am thinking to get the below (sticking with upgrading to brushless):

 

Motor

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm400-v3-2845-09-2100kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

ESC

https://www.overlander.co.uk/escs/ready-to-fly/xp2-30a-brushless-rtf-speed-controller.html

 

Battery x2

https://www.overlander.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/1319/s/2200mah-3s-11-1v-35c-lipo-battery-overlander-supersport-pro/category/442/

 

Charger

https://www.overlander.co.uk/chargers/overlander/e455-charger-50w-4a-li-nimh-charger.html

 

 

Then I will get a brushed ESC if I stick with the brushed motor but to be honest I might as well upgrade it all and if/when I do crash it I can move the gear to another model?

[leccyflyer]

Those generic 540/600 can motors were available with a number of different nominal "ideal" voltages and are sometimes marked on there as 6v, 7.2v or 8.4v. In the relatively early days of electric flight distributors such as Ripmax offered such motors with a prop and prop adaptor, but all too often the recommendation was for running the motor on an old buggy pack or some such and they were simply not working the motor hard enough to get sufficient rpm to the prop. Yes, they really did provide 8.4v motors and expect them to perform on 7 cells. As Tom said, provided the plastic end bell is kept cool enough not to melt they can be run on eight cells for a big improvement in power, albeit in terms of reduced motor longevity. My first electric model was provided with a 7.2v sp400 and the recommended pack was a 6 cell 7.2v AR500 pack, with a 6x4" nylon glow prop. YOu can bet that was soon upgraded.

 

These days it would be better to replace those heavy NiCds with a lipo pack and either 2s1p or 3s1p packs can be suitable, based on the prop chosen. You don't want to be running the simple can motors at too high a current draw, as they are very inefficient, so the higher voltage 3 cell pack can give more power for less heat generated.,

[Dickw]

12 minutes ago, Hoochykins said:

From the suggestions and checking the specs etc I am thinking to get the below (sticking with upgrading to brushless):

 

Motor

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm400-v3-2845-09-2100kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

....

Battery x2

https://www.overlander.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/1319/s/2200mah-3s-11-1v-35c-lipo-battery-overlander-supersport-pro/category/442/

..........................

Just a bit of basic "electric flight" knowledge:-

That motor has a kv of 2100 which means it wants to run at about 2100 rpm per volt of supply.
The battery is an 11.1 volt battery.
Putting the two together means that on "no load" the motor will try to run at 11.1 x 2100 = 23,310 rpm. With a prop on you should aim for around 80% of that to get a reliable operation at about 80% efficiency, so about 18,500 rpm.

That is far too high an rpm for your application and would require a very small prop.

 

With that motor go for a 2s battery, or for a 3s battery pick a motor with a lower kv - say about 1200.

 

Dick

[Hoochykins]

I wasn't planning on running it at full throttle on this model or am I getting it completely wrong.

 

I presumed with the radio gear I would be able to use the knobs on the transmitter to stick the throttle at 50/60%:

https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/flysky-fs-i6-2-4g-6ch-transmitter-and-receiver-system-lcd-screen-latest-version/

 

My idea was to go overboard with the power and cut it back so when I stick it in a new model I have that room to increase the prop speed if needed.

Edited February 21 by Hoochykins

[Hoochykins]

1 hour ago, Hoochykins said:

I wasn't planning on running it at full throttle on this model or am I getting it completely wrong.

 

I presumed with the radio gear I would be able to use the knobs on the transmitter to stick the throttle at 50/60%:

https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/flysky-fs-i6-2-4g-6ch-transmitter-and-receiver-system-lcd-screen-latest-version/

 

My idea was to go overboard with the power and cut it back so when I stick it in a new model I have that room to increase the prop speed if needed.

 

Looking at the transmitter in a bit more detail I can just dial back the throttle maximum to only put 50% power to the throttle, this would work wouldn't it? Then I still have the extra oomph for different models?

 

 

Also I was thinking if anyone has any old glider models that are battered and bruised who want to get rid of I would be up for buying it then using it as the trainer before I take the EP up? My concern is the fragility of the wings (being balsa and covering) so a small knock when landing will no doubt break them and they look to be a bit difficult to source due to the age of the model.

 

 

Edited February 21 by Hoochykins

[leccyflyer]

Trying to limit the throttle calibration to only output half the power at full throttle is something that is often suggested, but it doesn't work like that - the ESC will need to be calibrated to teach it the limits of the throttle stick travel and they you will have that power available. There's nothing wrong with not using that power on a particular model, which you might happily fly at partial throttle all the time, but that does put more strain on the ESC's component for some types of ESC, where the excess energy is lost as heat.  Dick's advice is sound - set the motor kV that you purchase to match the prop size and battery that you are going to use and it all needs to be well matched to be most efficient. 

[Robin Colbourne]

21 hours ago, Hoochykins said:

Okay so George is the guy, what's the best way to contact him? Email, Facebook etc?

 

Also, I don't think it's actually an SP600 as that's whats in the 1.8m models, the 1.7m models have a 540 type.

Hoochykins, it looks like you are aware that there area whole host of models that use the same fuselage as the Easy Pigeon (Green Sleeve, Seagull 2200, Bluebird & Albatross) .  New spares can be hard to find, however if you set up searches on Ebay, Facebook Marketplace and Gumtree to alert you when any of the related models are offered for sale you should have a plentiful supply of spares should you need them.  Where possible, have the search include 'search title and description' as they may be buried in a collection of models.

Edited February 21 by Robin Colbourne
Added other model names

[Frank Day]

I suggested a Overlander BM400 but reading a little more the BM600 I also suggested seems to be the better fit for the old 600 motor and would probably suit the older design re weight distribution along with the appropriate esc. Plus prop size. Measure the diameter of the old motor, BM600 is 32mm, BM400 is 28mm.

 

As others have suggested contact George at 4Max with all the details of the model and power train but def stick with the inrunner on this occasion until you're more familiar with it all,  it will save you having to do a design and build., thrust angles etc etc.  I made some poor choices early on.

 

Contact your local club and get that A test training underway, hopefully good weather on the way soon and perhaps your freshly restored baby will last more than a few seconds. There's normally a willing test pilot but don't play the blame game if an old model has a failure.

 

Trainers i've seen that appear to be good FMS P18 in 1300mm & 1700mm, Xfly Tasman 1500mm. Wot4- never got on with that thing, Max thrust Riot as a few examples. Someone at a club may be able to hook you up with a complete package.  You will have to remove or disconnect any Gyro installed.

 

And remember there's nothing scary about a group of middle aged men in joggers hanging around in a field  playing toys.  Unless its night time and someone's flashing their headlights, apparently!

Edited February 21 by Frank Day
missed something

[Hoochykins]

2 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Trying to limit the throttle calibration to only output half the power at full throttle is something that is often suggested, but it doesn't work like that - the ESC will need to be calibrated to teach it the limits of the throttle stick travel and they you will have that power available. There's nothing wrong with not using that power on a particular model, which you might happily fly at partial throttle all the time, but that does put more strain on the ESC's component for some types of ESC, where the excess energy is lost as heat.  Dick's advice is sound - set the motor kV that you purchase to match the prop size and battery that you are going to use and it all needs to be well matched to be most efficient. 

 

Perfect, that's what I wanted to know. I did think there may be excess heat produced so that clears that up. To be honest with the price of the motors it does make sense to get one specifically for this model then if I do want another model I can focus on the needs of that.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Robin Colbourne said:

Hoochykins, it looks like you are aware that there area whole host of models that use the same fuselage as the Easy Pigeon (Green Sleeve, Seagull 2200, Bluebird & Albatross) .  New spares can be hard to find, however if you set up searches on Ebay, Facebook Marketplace and Gumtree to alert you when any of the related models are offered for sale you should have a plentiful supply of spares should you need them.  Where possible, have the search include 'search title and description' as they may be buried in a collection of models.

 

Indeed I am, I have already done exactly what you have said. I love tinkering with stuff so buying cheap old gilders and fixing them up is perfect. 50% fixing, 50% flying 🙂

 

34 minutes ago, Frank Day said:

I suggested a Overlander BM400 but reading a little more the BM600 I also suggested seems to be the better fit for the old 600 motor and would probably suit the older design re weight distribution along with the appropriate esc. Plus prop size. Measure the diameter of the old motor, BM600 is 32mm, BM400 is 28mm.

 

As others have suggested contact George at 4Max with all the details of the model and power train but def stick with the inrunner on this occasion until you're more familiar with it all,  it will save you having to do a design and build., thrust angles etc etc.  I made some poor choices early on.

 

Contact your local club and get that A test training underway, hopefully good weather on the way soon and perhaps your freshly restored baby will last more than a few seconds. There's normally a willing test pilot but don't play the blame game if an old model has a failure.

 

Trainers i've seen that appear to be good FMS P18 in 1300mm & 1700mm, Xfly Tasman 1500mm. Wot4- never got on with that thing, Max thrust Riot as a few examples. Someone at a club may be able to hook you up with a complete package.  You will have to remove or disconnect any Gyro installed.

 

And remember there's nothing scary about a group of middle aged men in joggers hanging around in a field  playing toys.  Unless its night time and someone's flashing their headlights, apparently!

 

I will match the motor for this purpose. I know it not the same but I am a bit of a gamer (not fully into it, more jump on with the guys) and I am always the pilot. Also I have been using Picasim to get some training in. I know it won't be the same but it means I know how I want my control layout. With a drone it's easy as you let it hover and can mess with the controls where as with a plane it's a bit more difficult. I would also more more than happy for someone with experience flying it for the first time, if it crashes and burns it's not like I'm smashing up something very valuable and most of the parts can transfer over to a new plane. I very much see me bring home models in one piece a bonus.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hoochykins said:

From the suggestions and checking the specs etc I am thinking to get the below (sticking with upgrading to brushless):

 

Motor

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm400-v3-2845-09-2100kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

ESC

https://www.overlander.co.uk/escs/ready-to-fly/xp2-30a-brushless-rtf-speed-controller.html

 

Battery x2

https://www.overlander.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/1319/s/2200mah-3s-11-1v-35c-lipo-battery-overlander-supersport-pro/category/442/

 

Charger

https://www.overlander.co.uk/chargers/overlander/e455-charger-50w-4a-li-nimh-charger.html

 

 

Then I will get a brushed ESC if I stick with the brushed motor but to be honest I might as well upgrade it all and if/when I do crash it I can move the gear to another model?

 

•  I take it all the other parts here will work well? I just need another motor with a lower KV like the below (thanks Frank):

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm600-v3-3650-09-1500kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

It will fit fine as the can motor is 37mm x 60mm, this is 36mm x 50mm.

 

•  Can I programme the Transmitter to do elevator on the right stick, rudder on the left stick and a flick switch to stick the motor on or off? (this might be a bit of a weird setup or normal)
• Is it worth getting the 10 channel FlySky transmitter or is that massive overkill? Not for this glider but future models, I suspect it is and 6 channel will be overkill.

Edited February 21 by Hoochykins