Newbie Help - Easy Pigeon

[Robin Colbourne]

13 minutes ago, Hoochykins said:

•  Can I programme the Transmitter to do elevator on the right stick, rudder on the left stick and a flick switch to stick the motor on or off? (this might be a bit of a weird setup or normal)
• Is it worth getting the 10 channel FlySky transmitter or is that massive overkill? Not for this glider but future models, I suspect it is and 6 channel will be overkill.

 

Hoochykins, It is normal in Mode 2 to have your primary turning controls on the righthand stick.  If you had ailerons, then these would be on the righthand stick with the elevator, with rudder and throttle on the left stick,  As you don't have ailerons, the rudder would normally go on the righthand stick in place of the ailerons.  You could put the rudder on the left stick nad just have elevator on the right, but I've not seen it done.  Having a brushless motor on an on/off switch may be a violent for the speed controller, plus it is likely to use your battery up a lot faster than having a proportional throttle.  From a beginners point of view, it will also mean everything happens much more suddenly, which is not ideal.
The 10 channel version of the FlySky FS-i6, the FS-i6X is to the best of my knowledge, simply a software upgrade to get the extra channels.  Whether the FS-i6 gets i-bus & s-bus capability with the software upgrade, I don't know.
Six channels will be plenty for fixed wing flying in the short term.  I would advise getting the FS-i6, and, once you can fly proficiently, you will have a far better idea of what extra features are worth having.  In our club there seem to be a fliers, including experienced ones, spending far too much time flaffing about with overly complex transmitters.

[Hoochykins]

3 minutes ago, Robin Colbourne said:

Hoochykins, It is normal in Mode 2 to have your primary turning controls on the righthand stick.  If you had ailerons, then these would be on the righthand stick with the elevator, with rudder and throttle on the left stick,  As you don't have ailerons, the rudder would normally go on the righthand stick in place of the ailerons.  You could put the rudder on the left stick nad just have elevator on the right, but I've not seen it done.  Having a brushless motor on an on/off switch may be a violent for the speed controller, plus it is likely to use your battery up a lot faster than having a proportional throttle.  From a beginners point of view, it will also mean everything happens much more suddenly, which is not ideal.
The 10 channel version of the FlySky FS-i6, the FS-i6X is to the best of my knowledge, simply a software upgrade to get the extra channels.  Whether the FS-i6 gets i-bus & s-bus capability with the software upgrade, I don't know.
Six channels will be plenty for fixed wing flying in the short term.  I would advise getting the FS-i6, and, once you can fly proficiently, you will have a far better idea of what extra features are worth having.  In our club there seem to be a fliers, including experienced ones, spending far too much time flaffing about with overly complex transmitters.

 

Excellent, I will get the 6 channel version, I did think 10 was overkill. From what I have seen the Flysky is good for beginners and also people who have been flying for years so that's good enough for me. I didn't realise there were so many things you could do with the transmitter setup, it looks great. A massive improvement from the one I had for this years back which was a Sanwa Dash Saber 2 channel kit, it's somewhere in the loft but it looks to have been surpassed by a large amount with the new transmitters.

[Frank Day]

Flysky is a budget brand but FMS included it in the RTF 1300mm P18.

 

The 6 channel can be upped to 10 with a firmwear hack if you google it. I had one years ago but im a Spektrum user.

A used a gen 2 DX 8 would last a good few models

[Hoochykins]

Yep, seen about the firmware mod. All over that if need be, pretty much everything I have has been modded in some way or another.

 

I'm surprised how many old models there are for sale for such a cheap price (I know a lot are just air frames), I guess this hobby starts getting expensive with the larger replica models. Some of those models with radial fuel engines are stunning.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have started looking as I really want a collection even though I have zero experience.

[Frank Day]

I did RC many many years ago, thought it would be easy  when I came back but no. Bought items I really wanted but some still boxed, gradually getting them out. On the sunnyside prices have shot up and would cost in some cases a couple of hundred more or they are discontinued. Have a liking for some different older foamies. Multiplex Sonic liner converted to brushless outrunners, Robbe Concorde converted with Overlander BM400's as mentioned earlier.  Durafly Sea Vixen with EDF upgrade, Terrible Dynam Gloster Meteor undergoing essential reworks. Parkzone 49inch Mosquitos

[Frank Day]

On 22/01/2024 at 23:23, Robin Colbourne said:

Frank, you could try posting on this Polish Facebook groupwhich translates to "RC planes are our passion"

Hi Robin, posted on a nationwide Polish site have new facebook buddies now and some great links to pretty much everything. A couple want replies in English rather than translated, I should charge for the tuition.

[Simon Chaddock]

Hoochykins

Just an observationt but "throttle on a switch" is rather a brushed motor/NiMH feature. The power output was so low and the inertia of the brushed motor was such that instant switching on was not a significant problem however switch on a Brushless/LiPo to instant full power can be. The instant torque generated can effect the plane unless the speed controller can be programmed to allow it. A plane speed controller is designed to give an infinitely variable throttle. It is a pity not to use such a feature.

I have owned designed hand launched powered gliders that really only use full power to "show off" what it can do.

   

According to the manual the 1.7 m Easy Pigeon used a 540 (36mm dia) motor driving a 7x4.5 prop powered by a 5 cell (6V) 1500 or 1700 mAh NiMH pack.

From my own experience with my first Brushless/LiPo conversion this tiny Emax 2812 40g motor (its just 28mm dia and with rear leads) in its 1500Kv version will happily drive a 7x6  on a 3s 1500 mAh LiPo producing more thrust than the 540 ever did. The 1200kV version will happily drive a 10" prop using similar amps but generating a bit more thrust.

By far the bigger issue is not obtaining the necessary thrust but the huge reduction in weight that results from Brushless/LiPo . The motor is only 1/3 the weight and even a 2s 1500 mAh (8V) LiPo is about half the weight of the same 1500 mAh 6V NIMH. You may have to consider carefully the size and position of the LiPo needs to be placed to retain the correct centre of gravity.

Also don't forget a LiPo is a "high energy" battery and absolutely must use a dedicated LiPo charger for safety.

 

As Frank D points out don't rush at it There is a lot to learn about how to make best use of the "modern" technology to satisfy you own interests.

I never intended to build a "collection" but of course I did!

No kits all own design and build. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

[Hoochykins]

2 hours ago, Simon Chaddock said:

Hoochykins

Just an observationt but "throttle on a switch" is rather a brushed motor/NiMH feature. The power output was so low and the inertia of the brushed motor was such that instant switching on was not a significant problem however switch on a Brushless/LiPo to instant full power can be. The instant torque generated can effect the plane unless the speed controller can be programmed to allow it. A plane speed controller is designed to give an infinitely variable throttle. It is a pity not to use such a feature.

I have owned designed hand launched powered gliders that really only use full power to "show off" what it can do.

   

According to the manual the 1.7 m Easy Pigeon used a 540 (36mm dia) motor driving a 7x4.5 prop powered by a 5 cell (6V) 1500 or 1700 mAh NiMH pack.

From my own experience with my first Brushless/LiPo conversion this tiny Emax 2812 40g motor (its just 28mm dia and with rear leads) in its 1500Kv version will happily drive a 7x6  on a 3s 1500 mAh LiPo producing more thrust than the 540 ever did. The 1200kV version will happily drive a 10" prop using similar amps but generating a bit more thrust.

By far the bigger issue is not obtaining the necessary thrust but the huge reduction in weight that results from Brushless/LiPo . The motor is only 1/3 the weight and even a 2s 1500 mAh (8V) LiPo is about half the weight of the same 1500 mAh 6V NIMH. You may have to consider carefully the size and position of the LiPo needs to be placed to retain the correct centre of gravity.

Also don't forget a LiPo is a "high energy" battery and absolutely must use a dedicated LiPo charger for safety.

 

As Frank D points out don't rush at it There is a lot to learn about how to make best use of the "modern" technology to satisfy you own interests.

I never intended to build a "collection" but of course I did!

No kits all own design and build. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

The ESC I linked earlier has a soft start feature so I was going to take a look at that although ideally I will just need to adapt to flying them how everyone else does. I'll have a fiddle with the transmitter and see what I like best.

 

I wouldn't mind sourcing a battered glider that still flys to see how it goes, then I'll whack out the easy pigeon with my old man for a bit of closure on the 25 year old mess. Either that or it will be a 25 year repeat.

 

I have a bad feeling that in a few months I'm going to have more planes than space. Maybe it's time to start selling some previous hobbies gear...

[J D 8]

DO NOT over power the Pigeon,it will not like it. After all it is a motor glider not a rocket ship. Even the multiplex shark power train I had in mine was more than enough. I only used a 2200 3s lipo for the weight to balance, something smaller would have given plenty duration.

[Hoochykins]

9 minutes ago, J D 8 said:

DO NOT over power the Pigeon,it will not like it. After all it is a motor glider not a rocket ship. Even the multiplex shark power train I had in mine was more than enough. I only used a 2200 3s lipo for the weight to balance, something smaller would have given plenty duration.

 

Would I be overpowering it with a 3S 2200 and the below motor (not running it at full blast):

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm600-v3-3650-09-1500kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

Battery:

https://www.overlander.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/1319/s/2200mah-3s-11-1v-35c-lipo-battery-overlander-supersport-pro/category/442/

 

 

Rally all im aiming to do is to modernise it a bit, make it reliable (as I don't trust the 20 odd year old motors I have), give it a bit more power and make it more efficient. If anything I want it to go slow so it's easier to fly.

Edited February 21 by Hoochykins

[GrumpyGnome]

If you pop along to a local club, it's highly likely that:

 

a) You'll meet someone who'd like to get involved and help you face to face

b) You'll meet someone who has suitable bits 'in a drawer' (I have boxes of old speedos and motors amongst other things) that they'll let you borrow or buy cheaply

c) You'll meet someone who'll help prevent it being re-kitted 10 seconds into it's first flight due to inexperience in building or flying

d) You'll stay legal 🙂

e) You'll maker some friends - I find flying with friends is much more rewarding than flying alone. And I'm often considered to be anti-social!

 

 

[J D 8]

10 hours ago, Hoochykins said:

 

Would I be overpowering it with a 3S 2200 and the below motor (not running it at full blast):

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm600-v3-3650-09-1500kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

Battery:

https://www.overlander.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/1319/s/2200mah-3s-11-1v-35c-lipo-battery-overlander-supersport-pro/category/442/

 

 

Rally all im aiming to do is to modernise it a bit, make it reliable (as I don't trust the 20 odd year old motors I have), give it a bit more power and make it more efficient. If anything I want it to go slow so it's easier to fly.

   Well overpowered with that motor I would say.

[Dickw]

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

If you pop along to a local club, it's highly likely that:

 

a) You'll meet someone who'd like to get involved and help you face to face

b) You'll meet someone who has suitable bits 'in a drawer' (I have boxes of old speedos and motors amongst other things) that they'll let you borrow or buy cheaply

c) You'll meet someone who'll help prevent it being re-kitted 10 seconds into it's first flight due to inexperience in building or flying

d) You'll stay legal 🙂

e) You'll maker some friends - I find flying with friends is much more rewarding than flying alone. And I'm often considered to be anti-social!

 

 

I can support that post 100%.

Have a look at the BMFA club finder https://bmfa.justgo.com/clubFinder.html

You mentioned your location on another thread, and there are several clubs near you and and I am a member of one of them. Most clubs are happy for people to come along and watch, ask questions,  and talk about models and gear even if you are not a member. You may even get a trial flight at some clubs.

 

Dick

[David Davis 2]

Please don't overpower this model, it can lead to all sorts of problems for a beginner as I found out when helping a beginner with an electrified Radio Queen. https://forums.modelflying.co.uk/index.php?/topic/52162-french-radio-queens/&tab=comments#comment-947531

 

Now I am not an expert in electric flight like many of the other respondents but if you were to weigh the model and add the weight of the LiPo you'd have a good starting point, you may ignore the weight of the speed controller and motor at this stage. Let us say that the model and LiPo weigh 3lbs. You'd be looking for a motor capable of providing 150 watts because 50 watts per lb for a model like this will be sufficient. Given that a 3S LiPo provides 11.1 volts, you'll be looking at a motor which will draw about 13 amps.

 

For those more used to metric measurements the starting point is 110 watts per kilo.

 

In line with the advice you have received from many others, I suggest you go along to a club, introduce yourself and tell them of your situation. Someone will want to help you I'm sure.

Edited February 22 by David Davis 2

[J D 8]

   The set up I had in mine was 120watt and it was plenty.

[David Davis]

21 minutes ago, J D 8 said:

   The set up I had in mine was 120watt and it was plenty.

 

JDB knows what he's talking about.

 

[Simon Chaddock]

Hoochykins

You asked if the motor you had chosen would be over powering the Easy Pidgeon? It is a huge 450Watt motor so the answer is a most a definite yes. Particularly after the comment made by JD 8 that "120Watts was plenty".

You may decide you need its 177g weight for balance but honestly you would do better with a much smaller lighter motor and then add some lead! At least you can remove lead if you find the correct balance can be achieved by relocating other components.

[kc]

I think you have had some very good advice so far - I thought Simon Chaddock's and GrumpyGnome's advice was particularly apt.  

One important thing is not to choose your Tx system until you have selected a club to fly at  - clubs have favourite systems that tie up with their instructors equipment.   And that means the members know about that particular make and can help with programming and adjustment.    Choose another system , however good, then you will be on your own!    Visit a club and see if you like them - as a forum member has  said he flies in a nearby club ask him to invite you to a flying session.

[PatMc]

You may as well get a brushed motor ESC & 2 s lipo as follow this recent advice. It would be cheaper & IMO prove no less unsatisfactory. 

 

[Hoochykins]

I got the Flysky transmitter, it's only £50 and if the club uses different kit and I decide to stick with it I will upgrade to a more advanced bit of kit. I'm going to follow the advice with testing just gliding into long grass then I will take it up, if it doesn't make it back then I'm not much out of pocket. I really want to give this a go myself and see if I can get it flying well, setting myself a bit of a challenge.

 

The Flysky transmitters sticks were really easy to move so I've had it apart already and pre-loaded the springs which has made it much much better!

 

I will see if I can find a motor that's not too powerful, I see how to work out the wattage already and may go with a 2S pack for now. I'll post what I think will work if you could let me know if I've messed up. I know you guys can only help and advise so much so once its all ready, the weight is balanced and not flying to light I will be on my own. I'm finding it very interesting getting up to speed with it all currently.

 

EDIT: Also I didn't know I could link it to the PC which a bonus, I can't get some flying in on the sim before I do fly the actual glider

Edited February 22 by Hoochykins

[PatMc]

On 21/02/2024 at 22:16, Hoochykins said:

 

Would I be overpowering it with a 3S 2200 and the below motor (not running it at full blast):

https://www.overlander.co.uk/rc-motors/bm600-v3-3650-09-1500kv-brushless-inrunner-rc-motor.html

 

The motor is only as powerful as the supply voltage & load (i.e. the prop) it drives. The limiting factor for any motor is actually the current, which is stated in the spec for this motor as 30A . The power given in the spec must be when using a 4s lipo. If that motor was used on 2s lipo the max power would be 225W but that would be achieved using a larger prop at lower rpm. However the 225W power could easily be reduced simply by choosing a prop to suit the power required.

Advantages are the drop in fit & fact that the motor would be used at below it's max current meaning it would have an easy life.

IMO big disadvantage with this motor is the puny 3.2mm dia shaft. I would want a 5mm shaft in an inrunner of this size - reason being that if the shaft got accidently bent, say in a bad arrival, it would be impossible to change whereas changing a shaft on most outrunners is a simple job.

 

The model below, Igor, is a "bitsa" I made a while back using a similar fus to the EP & a spare 72" wing. Motor is an Emax BL2815/09 despite it's ragged looks Igor climbed to 200m in 30 secs from launch using a 3s lipo & had a better than expected glide performance. The motor doesn't seem to be available now in the UK but 4Max list an equivalent albeit 1090Kv instead of 920Kv. Also the 4Max motor includes a rear mount + bolt on prop driver as standard however a collet type prop drive is listed in the spares for £3.95.

If you're interested in how I tackled the outrunner motor fitting I can dig out & post some pics.  

 

 

 

 

PS Igor use 3s lipo with 250W power & weighed 950g.

[GrumpyGnome]

@Hoochykins where do you intend flying your model?

[Hoochykins]

10 hours ago, PatMc said:

The motor is only as powerful as the supply voltage & load (i.e. the prop) it drives. The limiting factor for any motor is actually the current, which is stated in the spec for this motor as 30A . The power given in the spec must be when using a 4s lipo. If that motor was used on 2s lipo the max power would be 225W but that would be achieved using a larger prop at lower rpm. However the 225W power could easily be reduced simply by choosing a prop to suit the power required.

Advantages are the drop in fit & fact that the motor would be used at below it's max current meaning it would have an easy life.

IMO big disadvantage with this motor is the puny 3.2mm dia shaft. I would want a 5mm shaft in an inrunner of this size - reason being that if the shaft got accidently bent, say in a bad arrival, it would be impossible to change whereas changing a shaft on most outrunners is a simple job.

 

The model below, Igor, is a "bitsa" I made a while back using a similar fus to the EP & a spare 72" wing. Motor is an Emax BL2815/09 despite it's ragged looks Igor climbed to 200m in 30 secs from launch using a 3s lipo & had a better than expected glide performance. The motor doesn't seem to be available now in the UK but 4Max list an equivalent albeit 1090Kv instead of 920Kv. Also the 4Max motor includes a rear mount + bolt on prop driver as standard however a collet type prop drive is listed in the spares for £3.95.

If you're interested in how I tackled the outrunner motor fitting I can dig out & post some pics.  

 

 

 

 

PS Igor use 3s lipo with 250W power & weighed 950g.

 

That is some good info, if you have photos it would help me a lot but don't go out of your way to take them!

 

 

 

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

@Hoochykins where do you intend flying your model?

 

Around this area there are huge fields and a friend of mine does shotgun shooting on farmers land with their permission so that's also a possibility.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

There's a club at Gt Offley. I visited there once, it looks like a friendly place to start.

 

[Hoochykins]

33 minutes ago, Andy Stephenson said:

There's a club at Gt Offley. I visited there once, it looks like a friendly place to start.

 

 

There's the St Albans Model Aero Club which is about 5 minutes down the road from me also, I'll have a word and see what they say 👍