Electric Cars.

[Frank Skilbeck]

13 hours ago, Nigel R said:

Emtb prices are crazy. Can't help thinking many folk would be better off with a 250cc scrambler...

But you can't ride those on the road/bridleway or cycle track. 

 

I have tried an emtb and must admit they are brilliant, still got my regular mtb at the moment.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

56 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

But you can't ride those on the road/bridleway or cycle track. 

 

I have tried an emtb and must admit they are brilliant, still got my regular mtb at the moment.

Got one of these then ?.

[EarlyBird]

14 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

What's a emtb ?.

 

 

14 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Electric mountain bike. Hunks use them.

and mtb is short for mountain bike I assume.

[Don Fry]

8 minutes ago, EarlyBird said:

 

and mtb is short for mountain bike I assume.

That’s right. Hunks can’t spell.

[MattyB]

16 hours ago, Trevor said:

I’m getting old and my short term memory is not what it was, but wasn’t this thread once about electric cars 😇

 

It was, but (even though I'd still like an EV) ebikes are way more fun and the ROI is way better if it avoids a load of car use, so we unilaterally changed the subject... 😉🤣

Edited October 14, 2022 by MattyB

[MattyB]

16 hours ago, Nigel R said:

Emtb prices are crazy. Can't help thinking many folk would be better off with a 250cc scrambler...

 

2 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

But you can't ride those on the road/bridleway or cycle track. 

 

TBF all bike prices have gone crazy since ~2019. The supply chain issues and high demand during lockdowns have been used as an excuse, but a lot of eMTB prices seem to have gone up 50-80% since then. That feels like they are taking the mickey a bit, but I guess if for as long as supply outstrips demand and they remain relatively low volume it will remain the case. 

[Nigel R]

3 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

But you can't ride those on the road/bridleway or cycle track.

 

And with a £5k+ price tag, I will also not be riding an electric MTB... anywhere.

 

30 minutes ago, MattyB said:

TBF all bike prices have gone crazy since ~2019.

 

It's bananas. Even CRC's in house "budget brand" Megawatt has a £7k range topper. Barking.

[Trevor Crook]

The e-bike bits are interesting, but I can't get my models to the field on one, so for those wanting a return to topic, here's a new video I just watched. Impressive efficiency available on a non-motorway commute. Obviously the cost of charging can vary tremendously, but he's probably gone for a good compromise with a standard tariff rate - public rapid charging costs a lot more than 34p/kWh, dedicated ev tariffs a lot cheaper, and free 7kW charging is still widely available in many car parks.

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Excellent Video, so my choice is the Merc,,,🥳

[MattyB]

22 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Excellent Video, so my choice is the Merc,,,🥳

 

If you are so vehemently anti-EV, why bother posting in this thread? Your repetitious trashing of anyone who posts content or views that suggest there might be a future in vehicles not powered by burning fossilised dinosaurs is pretty boring. No-one is saying you have to buy one (at least not yet - that will ultimately be the choice of governments around the world), but please ease off the pointless bashing.

 

PS - If EVs are so useless, what is your solution to the challenge of transportation given the climate disaster that awaits if we continue as we are?

Edited October 14, 2022 by MattyB

[MattyB]

5 hours ago, Nigel R said:

And with a £5k+ price tag, I will also not be riding an electric MTB... anywhere.

 

It's bananas. Even CRC's in house "budget brand" Megawatt has a £7k range topper. Barking.

 

The mitigation is that (unless you are a properly good rider) you really won't get much benefit from having top spec drivetrain and suspension components. I have tried a few now at both ends of the spectrum, and whilst the ~£9k Levo was nice I doubt I would have been any more than a second or two faster down the hill than if I'd gone for the same bike in basic spec. There's more of a delta in suspension components, but even the cheapest 1x11 or 1x12 drivetrains now are really good so there's no need to go crazy in that department, especially on an emtb where weight is not so critical and the motor will chew up expensive cassettes quicker anyway!

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Oh come on matty, they just aren't for me at the moment, our first electric bikes we bought in 2008, 36 kilos and the only way to ride around Montpellier, which is anti car and all trams, battery life 3/5 years and at 500€ the battery I sold them and bought a 125cc 4 stroke Yamaha, I have been looking at electric moto bikes but more than 15.000€ for 200 kilometres just isn't practical.

 

 

 If I had 60.000€ ( of which I don't ) I would jump on the EV bandwagon with a Tesla, especially as I have 20 solar panels on my roof and really cheap electric at night and of course a garage to charge it in.

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Oh come on matty, they just aren't for me at the moment, our first electric bikes we bought in 2008, 36 kilos and the only way to ride around Montpellier, which is anti car and all trams, battery life 3/5 years and at 500€ the battery I sold them and bought a 125cc 4 stroke Yamaha, I have been looking at electric moto bikes but more than 15.000€ for 200 kilometres just isn't practical.

 

 

 If I had 60.000€ ( of which I don't ) I would jump on the EV bandwagon with a Tesla, especially as I have 20 solar panels on my roof and really cheap electric at night and of course a garage to charge it in.

And while agreeing with you, basically, an energy guzzling Tesla is not an answer to preventing grandchildren cursing our lost opportunity, they face disaster. Less energy use, end off. Push back against that, you are part of the problem. 
Paul, please note, this reply is aiming at the concept that electric cars, ie change a  IC motor for an electric motor is a solution. Not so. Merely a way of shifting pollution from exhaust pipe to power station, and furthermore wasting energy. Or factory making panels, turbines, nuclear storage monitoring for 1000s of years, or carbon cature with no mention of the basic facts, carbon from where it’s safe and then burying it again with a assurance from the gone tomorrow profit taker that it’s OK, while not even trying to find an insurer to back the lie up.

Use less energy. 
Tax carbon use at source of consumption.  Those who burn it pay for it. And need to pass there expenses onto their customers. Smaller, slower, boring, lighter electric boxes?

[Steve Colman]

I've been dipping into this thread now and again and I do find the subject genuinely fascinating. I tend to be somewhat neutral in the whole EV v ICE debate and can see both sides of the argument but I had no real world experience of EV's until a couple of weeks ago.

 

A young guy at my club turned up in a Tesla and was kind enough to give me a quick trip in it. I have to say that the minimalist interior was very much to my liking although it would probably take me eons to fathom the touch screen controlling everything. That aside, the actual driving experience, even just as a passenger, was very impressive and I came to the conclusion that the ICE, whether petrol or diesel, seemed somewhat archaic and over complicated by comparison.

 

However, I am not now, or ever in the future, going to have the money available to buy an EV so it will remain within the realms of my dreams much like exotic sports cars or a classic VW camper. 

[Trevor Crook]

2 hours ago, Don Fry said:

And while agreeing with you, basically, an energy guzzling Tesla is not an answer to preventing grandchildren cursing our lost opportunity, they face disaster. Less energy use, end off. Push back against that, you are part of the problem. 
Paul, please note, this reply is aiming at the concept that electric cars, ie change a  IC motor for an electric motor is a solution. Not so. Merely a way of shifting pollution from exhaust pipe to power station, and furthermore wasting energy. Or factory making panels, turbines, nuclear storage monitoring for 1000s of years, or carbon cature with no mention of the basic facts, carbon from where it’s safe and then burying it again with a assurance from the gone tomorrow profit taker that it’s OK, while not even trying to find an insurer to back the lie up.

Use less energy. 
Tax carbon use at source of consumption.  Those who burn it pay for it. And need to pass there expenses onto their customers. Smaller, slower, boring, lighter electric boxes?

Don, the point is that EVs waste far less energy than combustion cars - an EV power train has an efficiency of over 90%, whereas a typical road car is 30 - 40%. In energy terms, 1l of petrol or diesel contains about 10kWh, and will take a 45mpg car about 10 miles, giving an efficiency of 1 mile/kWh. A Tesla Model 3 will fairly readily achieve 4 miles/kWh, so even if its electricity is derived purely from fossil fuels, it will use less and cause less emissions. Averaged over a year, about half the UK's electricity is derived from fossil fuels, and it continues to decrease, so the difference will get even greater. You are right, though, that fundamentally we all need to consume less.

Like Paul, I would love an EV but can't afford one at present, hopefully in the near to medium future that will change.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I read the thread as well, EV won't be for me purely because of cost, do I feel threatened by them like some appear to do ? Not at all, it's just a tool to get from A to B.

We need to consume less ? Good luck on that one, Gimme trumps all it seems.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

8 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

I read the thread as well, EV won't be for me purely because of cost, do I feel threatened by them like some appear to do ? Not at all, it's just a tool to get from A to B.

We need to consume less ? Good luck on that one, Gimme trumps all it seems.

We will have to get one eventually as with our 'crit air' pollution badges we won't be admitted into most towns in the next 10 years or so,,,

[Don Fry]

Trevor, you miss a point. Yes, electric cars are more efficient, just as my current box is more efficient than a Model T Ford. You fail to mention the carbon cost of producing a car, as against using an existing one. 
But just swapping out an electric motor is not an answer. A smaller electric motor is perhaps. While agreeing with John Stones, I don’t don’t expect to win this argument, but all I ask is an acknowledgement that the owner of the energy burner enjoys it, does not care what happens after that, and is self honest enough to say so. 
I drove a Tesla last week. Don’t know the model, it’s a mid range one, company car of a neibour. I’ve driven more powerful cars, but never one with sheer low end grunt like the Tesla. Nice car, fun, big fat tyres to absorb all that grunt, fancy electrics trying to keep then from spinning when I grunted it. Lots of rubber dust (see science papers, effects on kids lungs). Not the answer.

His view, the electric car is a no brainer. It’s cheaper to run, the tax position from taking electric over petrol is huge. OK. But that means my taxes are being used to encourage this folly. 

[Trevor Crook]

Don, I agree that keeping our vehicles going for longer is better for the planet than throwing them away prematurely and making new ones, whichever the means of power, although breathing in the foul stink from some of the older diesels I follow can't be good. I don't have figures comparing manufacturing of evs with piston cars, or comparing the energy and environmental cost of extracting, refining and distributing oil products with generating electricity, so I don't get involved with the wider argument, just the vehicles themselves. No disagreement that we must cut down on waste. It particularly annoys me that I have to discard perfectly functional phones, tablets and computers because the operating system is no longer supported, or the memory filled with bloatware. 

[MattyB]

7 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Trevor, you miss a point. Yes, electric cars are more efficient, just as my current box is more efficient than a Model T Ford. You fail to mention the carbon cost of producing a car, as against using an existing one.

Research has shown that the carbon crossover point between a new petrol car and an EV happens somewhere between 10-80k miles, the figure being dependent on the energy mix used to generate the energy on the grid (I.e the mix of fossil vs renewable vs nuclear). The upper values are for places like China where they use loads of coal, the lower ones are for Norway where they have very high percentages of hydro for their generation.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

 

If we put the Uk somewhere in the middle that would mean something like an MG4 would start to beat an ICE car after about 30k miles, which given the reductions in average mileages since Covid means about 4 years of use.
 

Since the average age of cars in the uk is now ~8.5 years and the average age at scrapple is 13-14 there really should no longer be a debate that EVs reduce overall emissions across their lifetimes, especially given their drivetrains are much simpler and require less maintenance and environmentally damaging fluids etc. The only question mark is whether the first owner who has historically bought new and changed after 3 years (why people do that these days beats me, but some still do) will hit that break even point or not.

[Gary Manuel]

Hi MattyB.

 

I'm sure that your research is very valid, but I think you have also missed Don's point. He is not comparing the environmental impact of a new petrol car against a new electric car. He is comparing the impact of a new electric car (or any other form of new car) against hanging onto whatever car you currently own until it is life expired.

 

I have always believed that the most environmentally friendly car available is the one you already drive. The amount of damage caused by burning fuel in a car is insignificant compared with the cost of manufacturing / transporting / sourcing materials etc of ANY new car.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Topic makes me smile to myself at times, seems to be lots of contradictions and linking of "facts/statistics" 68 years have inclined me to take advertisers/sellers bumf with a large pinch of salt, don't start me on the very recent diesel/petrol shenanigans and tax incentive given to boot.

 

Plan is to go another route to power yer vehicle, it'll happen, time lines given ? Large pinch of salt required, statistics/sellers speak with forked tongues, we swallow it coz it conforms with what we want and gives a nice warm glow to our sense of right.

 

Pollution cost to change to new power source  ? Of course there is how could it be otherwise, but doesn't mean it's wrong to do it, plan is for the long term is it not.

 

Why change a perfectly good vehicle ? Status, lease, coz I can and I want.

 

Rivers canals beaches, were open sewers when I wor a lad, cost plenty to clean em up, money well spent, seems we're going backwards now though. Environment my backside.

 

Infrastructure ? Oh we're gonna build X amount of charge points a year, aye heard that guff all my life, costs soar n completion dates never delivered, then we have your modern flexible/mobile workforce, how these people who deliver your goodies on a daily basis, many many on low wages gonna deal with this change ? Picture is painted as simple, they'll buy the used lecky stuff ? Back to that pinch of salt methinks.

 

It's cheaper per mile ? Aye for now, loads of revenue/tax would be lost, that'll get addressed without a doubt, tax by mileage/road usage, you do it YOU pay for it.

 

Sons a high earner, good man works hard and done well for himself, solar panels on his house, large screen tv in every room except the loo, did more mileage on his first car than I have done in my life, delivery van driver on first name terms, save the planet ? Yer avin a larf.

 

Cynic Moi ? Absolutely.

[Don Fry]

I’m not sure about my numbers, they are astonishing. Zemo Partnership reckon that the embedded CO2 cost of producing the average ice car is 5.6  metric tons. A liter of petrol produces 2.3 kilos of CO2.

 

that calculates, about 24000 liters of petrol, are needed to to be burnt before the box uses it manufacturing cost. 
 

Feel free to check. I can’t believe them.

[Don Fry]

44 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

I’m not sure about my numbers, they are astonishing. Zemo Partnership reckon that the embedded CO2 cost of producing the average ice car is 5.6  metric tons. A liter of petrol produces 2.3 kilos of CO2.

 

that calculates, about 24000 liters of petrol, are needed to to be burnt before the box uses it manufacturing cost. 
 

Feel free to check. I can’t believe them.

Mainly because I’m tripping over units, I believe 2400 liters is correct, still a lot of fuel.

[J D 8]

           Going to take lot to beat my old Landy then, doing just 5k a year and the carbon released when it was made went up 32 years ago [ owned since 93] With a bit of luck will be going many more.