Electric Cars.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

28 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Not really.

 

If I want, I can get in my old Skoda estate, and drive to John O'Groates in the north of Scotland, or Lands End in the South, without encountering ANY pollution laws...... admirable hyperbole in your earlier post.

So running a diesel would take how long against an electric ?.

[Tim Kearsley]

There's no doubt the range of an EV does take quite a hit in the winter.  I haven't measured it on my Tesla Model 3 but as a guess I would say it drops from around 280 miles in the summer to perhaps 220 or lower in the winter.  Mine is a 2020 model and later models had heat pumps fitted, which helped the cold-weather range.  I usually set the climate control to 19 degrees C and use a bit of seat heating, plus I usually pre-heat the car for 10 minutes or so before using it.  I take the view that charging at home is so cheap that I'll take the comfort over the reduced range!

[GrumpyGnome]

21 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

So running a diesel would take how long against an electric ?.

Afraid I don't understand the question.... and it's a petrol vehicle...

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

46 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Afraid I don't understand the question.... and it's a petrol vehicle...

Sorry, I thought you were driving an EV from john O'Groates in the north of Scotland, or Lands End in the South,

[Shaun Walsh]

[Tim Kearsley]

Is a good cartoon but the joke's wearing a bit thin now...

[Erfolg]

It does leave me a little disappointed that there are a number that are so converted to EVs that reports from the media are dismissed. I am thinking generally along the lines, the the second hand values fall faster than a similarly priced IC vehicle, that the range remains an issue for many, also that for manufacturers the percentage of sales for EVs, is falling relative to the rest of their range. There are more reported.

 

I suspect that the high initial costs, are an issue, especially for private purchases, whereas businesses can various tax advantages (at present), although the withdrawal of some, has changed their strategies.

 

If true the premium insurance costs are not an inducement.

 

However Ford have announced that their EV range is going to be centred on the lower cost small size EV market. Not the premium end.

 

I noted in the newspaper this weekend, that a number of small (tiny) vehicles are coming to the UK market. The Citroen Ami at £8000, 50 mile range, Fiat Topilino @ £9000 with a 50 mile range, Dogood Zero @ £ 6000 with 50 mile Range, the one I liked the look of Mobilize Duo with a 87 mile range, then there is the particularly ugly Biro Summer £11000 with a 35-60 mile range.

 

Many media reports suggest that Tim's practice of pre heating the vehicle, battery, seats etc. whilst on charge prior to departure is a must/ or generally sensible, in cold weather. Others indicate that the low quoted range in winter is often due to software having monitored previous usage and the option can exist where the electronics starts shutting functionality off, if the destination is known, and range seems to be an issue.

 

I am astounded by some claims that IC vehicles (cars) are subsidized, they appear to be anything but. Some see them as cash cows.

 

In my case range is an issue, once a month doing a 120-140 mile journey, unfortunately (for me) my present car will almost certainly out last me. I have nothing against EVs other than price, and the ability to carry my models, that few seem to have (in my price range).

 

I do see the elephants in the room, and am amazed at the Emperors new clothes, that some cannot see.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

3 hours ago, Erfolg said:

It does leave me a little disappointed that there are a number that are so converted to EVs that reports from the media are dismissed. I am thinking generally along the lines, the the second hand values fall faster than a similarly priced IC vehicle, that the range remains an issue for many, also that for manufacturers the percentage of sales for EVs, is falling relative to the rest of their range. There are more reported.

 

I suspect that the high initial costs, are an issue, especially for private purchases, whereas businesses can various tax advantages (at present), although the withdrawal of some, has changed their strategies.

 

If true the premium insurance costs are not an inducement.

 

However Ford have announced that their EV range is going to be centred on the lower cost small size EV market. Not the premium end.

 

I noted in the newspaper this weekend, that a number of small (tiny) vehicles are coming to the UK market. The Citroen Ami at £8000, 50 mile range, Fiat Topilino @ £9000 with a 50 mile range, Dogood Zero @ £ 6000 with 50 mile Range, the one I liked the look of Mobilize Duo with a 87 mile range, then there is the particularly ugly Biro Summer £11000 with a 35-60 mile range.

 

Many media reports suggest that Tim's practice of pre heating the vehicle, battery, seats etc. whilst on charge prior to departure is a must/ or generally sensible, in cold weather. Others indicate that the low quoted range in winter is often due to software having monitored previous usage and the option can exist where the electronics starts shutting functionality off, if the destination is known, and range seems to be an issue.

 

I am astounded by some claims that IC vehicles (cars) are subsidized, they appear to be anything but. Some see them as cash cows.

 

In my case range is an issue, once a month doing a 120-140 mile journey, unfortunately (for me) my present car will almost certainly out last me. I have nothing against EVs other than price, and the ability to carry my models, that few seem to have (in my price range).

 

I do see the elephants in the room, and am amazed at the Emperors new clothes, that some cannot see.

 

Advertisers do and always have painted a pretty picture, they do and did on I.C or any other product. The Emperors clothes comment exists for some minds, but not in the EV owners minds, they do point the disadvantages out, dyed in the wool I.C advocates focus on these as attack points, they're your Emperors clothes.

Subsidy ? Diesel (I.C) had it in spades via Zero or low road tax, I'm astounded you missed that.

Maybe the arguements bigger than the depreciation on value, you have to start somewhere, unless you believe it's all a conspiracy ?

Elephant in the room ? The human race.

[Shaun Walsh]

The daughter of a friend of my wife purchased an electric Ford a couple of weeks ago.  A few days after she bought it her next door neighbour phoned her to say "the bonnet of your car is smoking" as she left the house there was a loud bang and the bonnet flew up followed by the car bursting into flames. It took the fire brigade 3 hours to extinguish the fire.

[Frank Skilbeck]

On 10/02/2024 at 14:25, Erfolg said:

There have been other reports in the press that are not encouraging with respect to EVs, one being that specific tyres for EVs (is it all) have shallower tread, also wear out  faster, due to the combination of heavier vehicles, high initial acceleration, combined with the shallow depth of tread.

 

One of the issues that probably many have no awareness off is that the underground transmission cables, are often oil or gassed cooled, these cables are armoured (wire) and designed to withstand the forces generated from transmission, they invariably will have significant magnetic fields (as do the overhead cables). There is or was often a lead sheave to help with the mechanical performance. Sub sea cables are similar. As is usual, heat generation is an energy loss.

 

 

I shudder at the energy and Co2 released from Cement product. The bases of wind turbines need a 

 

 

You do realise that every gas/oil well is cemented in place, it was a faulty cement job that was the instigator of the Gulf of Mexico Deep Water Horizon "spill".

 

I wonder how much concrete is in one of these

 

 

[Tim Kearsley]

10 hours ago, Shaun Walsh said:

The daughter of a friend of my wife purchased an electric Ford a couple of weeks ago.  A few days after she bought it her next door neighbour phoned her to say "the bonnet of your car is smoking" as she left the house there was a loud bang and the bonnet flew up followed by the car bursting into flames. It took the fire brigade 3 hours to extinguish the fire.

Quote from an online article by Autocar:

 

"Another study by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency also revealed that petrol and diesel cars caught fire 19 times more often than EVs."

 

The article can be read here.

 

[John Rickett 102]

 

63,000 cubic meters used in Heidrun, Frank. Much of it poured using wheel barrows!

 

[Ace]

@Paul De Tourtoulon Correction 62miles - from What Car magazine: "Perhaps the most interesting engine option of all, though, is the plug-in hybrid. This combines the 1.5-litre petrol unit with an electric motor for a total output of 201bhp. But, more importantly, its battery is twice the size of its predecessors, so officially allows you to travel up to 62 miles on electric power." It will also accept 50kW charging so 10-80% in 25 mins. No connection with Skoda just looking for an alternative to my superb 😁 Mondeo est. 

[Frank Skilbeck]

24 minutes ago, John Rickett 102 said:

 

63,000 cubic meters used in Heidrun, Frank. Much of it poured using wheel barrows!

 

Not by you 😉That's a floater too, the fixed gravity based ones were typically 200,000 tons of concrete, I think they had more than one wheelbarrow!

Edited February 12 by Frank Skilbeck

[Piers Bowlan]

I don’t really get the point of constant EV bashing articles in the popular press, except the fact that their motoring correspondents seem to be dyed in the wool petrol heads.

Yes, EVs are different to ICs, get over it!

Range can be an issue so that may well be a deal breaker depending on the type of driving you do. 7500miles annually is average for private motorists apparently (just over 20miles a day!). But that is no consolation when you make a trip of over a couple of hundred miles, so a recharge is in required. However my Leaf regularly takes me to Hazelmere or Worthing and back from Swanage, Dorset on one charge. Not bad for a car that is only good for ‘local trips to the shops’ according to my friends. Admittedly it is a not so practical in the winter, so I then top up from a 13A socket in the garage of my daughter’s or mother-in-law’s house for a few hours. Battery range with the leaf was only 70 miles when they came out 11 years ago, more like 230 now. Batteries have improved a lot and will no doubt continue to do so.

My leaf has done 30k miles and the tyres are still looking good.

My new Nissan Leaf Tekna cost the same as a top of range Ford Focus in 2021, admittedly with a gov. subsidy.

 

I just like the way it drives and it suits me, I am no eco warrior that is for sure.

Edited February 12 by Piers Bowlan

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I don't think that it is important what you drive, Ev or Ic neither will save the planet as it's the overpopulated earth that's the problem,

 a question of choice and what town you can drive into, considering that over here the towns that ban IC normally have a good public service.

 

At least the subject hasn't overflowed on to the model field electric or methanol and petrol "yet".🤫

[leccyflyer]

41 minutes ago, Piers Bowlan said:

I don’t really get the point of constant EV bashing articles in the popular press, except the fact that their motoring correspondents seem to be dyed in the wool petrol heads.

Yes, EVs are different to ICs, get over it!

Range can be an issue so that may well be a deal breaker depending on the type of driving you do. 7500miles annually is average for private motorists apparently (just over 20miles a day!). But that is no consolation when you make a trip of over a couple of hundred miles, so a recharge is in required. However my Leaf regularly takes me to Hazelmere or Worthing and back from Swanage, Dorset on one charge. Not bad for a car that is only good for ‘local trips to the shops’ according to my friends. Admittedly it is a not so practical in the winter, so I then top up from a 13A socket in the garage of my daughter’s or mother-in-law’s house for a few hours. Battery range with the leaf was only 70 miles when they came out 11 years ago, more like 230 now. Batteries have improved a lot and will no doubt continue to do so.

My leaf has done 30k miles and the tyres are still looking good.

My new Nissan Leaf Tekna cost the same as a top of range Ford Focus in 2021, admittedly with a gov. subsidy.

 

I just like the way it drives and it suits me, I am no eco warrior that is for sure.

Yep, it's the range that is a complete killer for EVs for me, otherwise I'd certainly want to at least give it a try. I'm not seeing a Mondeo-sized estate car that could easily manage the  150 mile round trip to my old club field on a freezing cold day, so I wouldn't even consider having an EV. Until they sort the range and the infrastructure out - unlikely in the rural area that I drive in - then it's literally a non- starter for me personally.  That's coming from someone with very little attachment to the internal combustion engine - apart from RR Merlins and Bristol Hercules of course.

[Tim Kearsley]

I've come to the conclusion that the pro/anti electric car "debate" is very analogous to politics, in that people, in general, are polarised one way or the other.  Both sides are firmly entrenched in their views and actively seek out stories or propaganda to support those views.  For my part, I hadn't considered EVs until 2018, when my partner bought a BMW i3.  The first time I drove it I was genuinely staggered by the acceleration and ease of driving.  No gear changes, never stalling etc, etc.  It was 2020 before I bought my own EV and there is no way I would ever go back to petrol or diesel now.

I completely accept the downsides of EV ownership, the main one being the need to plan longer journeys to include a charge break.  For me, having access to the Tesla supercharger network makes that slightly easier.  Overall though, for my situation, the pros considerably outweigh the cons.  Fuel cost of about 2.5p/mile for 99% of my driving, almost zero servicing cost plus unbelievable, IC-killing performance clinch the deal.

[Shaun Walsh]

2 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Quote from an online article by Autocar:

 

"Another study by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency also revealed that petrol and diesel cars caught fire 19 times more often than EVs."

 

The article can be read here.

 

It doesn't quote the figures as fires per 100,000 vehicles or fires per 100,000 miles driven (I chose 100,000 as an example, any number will do). The figures quoted are therefore ambiguous at best and no meaningful comparison can be made. The problem isn't just the number of vehicles catching fire, its the difficulty in extinguishing the fire when it does happen. Firefighters have years of experience of tackling petrol fires(and the equipment to do so) but very little experience in coping with lithium battery fires.

[Ron Gray]

53 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Yep, it's the range that is a complete killer for EVs for me, otherwise I'd certainly want to at least give it a try. I'm not seeing a Mondeo-sized estate car that could easily manage the  150 mile round trip to my old club field on a freezing cold day, so I wouldn't even consider having an EV. Until they sort the range and the infrastructure out - unlikely in the rural area that I drive in - then it's literally a non- starter for me personally.  That's coming from someone with very little attachment to the internal combustion engine - apart from RR Merlins and Bristol Hercules of course.

I’m still amazed by how many models I can get inside my Ioniq 5, including the 82” (one piece wing) Hurri at the same time as the 72” (one piece wing) Mustang. The SIG Rascal 110” will also just fit in even with the u/c on. In fact the only one that won’t fit is the Giant Revolver and that goes in the trailer. Regarding range, on a freezing cold day with a/c on plus heated seats and heated steering wheel it shows 220 miles (80 down from a ‘normal’ day) and I charge at home @7.5p / kWh. 

[GrumpyGnome]

Personally, I'm not pro or anti electric.

 

I live in a rural area with no shops within 5 miles, and the nearest public charge points are at Maccy Ds 9 miles away. Often a queue to use them.

 

Add to that, I have only on road parking, and a 'remote' garage so charging at home would be difficult.

 

Not insurmountable problems, but sways the argument at the moment (really a moot point as I'm not looking for a new car.)

 

Although my nearest petrol station is about 6 miles away, it has 8 pumps, and people tend to spend under 5 mins at the pump.

 

Undoubtedly the infrastructure will improve, and hopefully EV costs will come down. May not affect me, but certainly will affect my son.

 

It's an interesting thread. Sadly, like similar threads (ic v electric models) some posters are very entrenched in their views and will not change them, irrespective of any fact-based arguments.

[leccyflyer]

Thanks Ron - I'm away off needing to change my Mondeo, it's only done 75,000 miles so isn't even run in yet. My issue isn't the absolute maximum size of models, it's the number of models - I like to take at least 4 or 5 models of around 4 foot span, rigged, to the field, plus some wee ones and the Mondeo swallows those up quite nicely.

[Tim Kearsley]

@GrumpyGnome it sounds like you are one of the few who has an open mind and looks at the pros and cons without prejudice.  All the points you make are valid and EV ownership wouldn't be very suitable for you.

[Piers Bowlan]

3 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Yep, it's the range that is a complete killer for EVs for me, otherwise I'd certainly want to at least give it a try. I'm not seeing a Mondeo-sized estate car that could easily manage the  150 mile round trip to my old club field on a freezing cold day, so I wouldn't even consider having an EV. Until they sort the range and the infrastructure out - unlikely in the rural area that I drive in - then it's literally a non- starter for me personally.  That's coming from someone with very little attachment to the internal combustion engine - apart from RR Merlins and Bristol Hercules of course.

The Leaf is quite a bit bigger than a Ford Focus in terms of internal volume but smaller than a Mondeo for sure.

On a freezing day it's round-trip range drops to about 180 miles.
With the rear seats down it will accommodate a 1.8m wing (6ft in old money) if the passenger seat is forward.

There is quite a choice of EV cars on the market now but one of the things about the Leaf I like is the e-pedal. Switch it on and you only need to use the one pedal for driving. Press the accelerator, it accelerates, lift your foot off and it brakes. The more you take your foot off, the faster it stops (it also brings on the brake lights too so the guy tail-gating you knows what you are doing!). I drove Swanage to Hazelmere and never touched the brake pedal once. It’s the regenerative braking that slows you down and gives you another 15% of range, for free! 😁That is one of the reasons you rarely need replacement brake pads with an EV. My last service at a Nissan main dealer cost just £92. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I tried out the Fiat 500 'red', great fun to drive  (also an E pedal mode ) but less than 200 kilometres range, no way that my wife could go there and back to her medical appointments on a full charge as the round trip is 200 kilometres, and the standard version "red" at 31.500 and the petrol  version at less than 17.000€

 

 The other problem is the new super parking tax that should start in Paris, and as usual the other cites will follow, Ic and hybride over 1.600kilos

18€ an hour, progressive up to 225€ for 6 hours also applying to EV's over 2.000 kilos.