Laser Engines development.

[Nigel R]

I'm thinking structurally, you'd want the firewall to be on (or very very near) the wing LE made from 3/8 or 1/2 ply?

What sort of tank size for each, 16oz? 20oz?

How long is the engine from prop driver to rear face of mount?

 

Edited By Nigel R on 03/12/2020 11:21:28

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Tis a thing of Beauty.

[Chris Walby]

Really nice looking engine there and knowing you/Laser they will be top performers in all respects. I suspect that there will be some serious balsa bashing instigated by this pair.

I suppose like RR, if you need to ask about the price then perhaps its not for you

PS do the sale engine come with the test silencers or do you have to have new ones

[Jon H]

Nigel - Not sure about price yet, we need to get all the cycle times and work it all out but if you ballpark £650? something like that.

When it comes to mounting there is no room for messing about. Its very long (230mm) and you need a beefy firewall. In the case of the sort of model its aimed at (75-80 inch spitfire etc) you basically chop off everything ahead of the wing leading edge and beef up that wing dowel former to suit. Remember too that in a WWII fighter a section of firewall will be removed for the cooling air exit tunnel so no skimping on your firewall. I think 15mm of really hard ply will be the way to go. 1/4 tiger moth, chipmunk etc the engine is really easy to mount and cooling is already taken care of. I was sent a plan for a 1/4 chippy and the engine fits perfectly. 

Also, if you fly like a lunatic you risk pulling it off the model even if you do mount it right. My OS pegasus and ASP radial are the same. If you throw the thing into a violent flick type manoeuver you are going to break something. Its why i never flick roll or spin my acrowot xl as that OS 240 is really heavy and i am likely to pull the firewall off given its ARTF nature. Ron managed to pull the front off his seagull P40 just running his laser 240v on the ground!

All that said i dont see this as a big issue as its aimed at WWII fighters and anything with a long engine in it. Its not really aimed at the sort of model where you wring its neck. Any sort of normal flying/aerobatics will be fine. Its just really high speed/load flick's that might cause you problems.

Fuel consumption is low on the 5% nitro 7% oil fuel. Even 12oz runs for ages so 16 will be plenty.

 

Ron - yep, need some transparent cowls. It is a shame to hide it away.

JS1 - I tried! Just need to test the snot out of it now to make sure its all 100% reliable.

Chris - I will include test exhausts just for you

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 03/12/2020 11:47:52

[Chris Walby]

As a new boy to all this building from balsa and the tradition of mating fuselage to wings method can I just ask why?

About the only good thing to come from the SG Hurricane was the detachable wing tips (ok the flaps solution was pants), where the fuselage is almost permanently bolted to the centre wing containing U/C and flap servos.

If, just if I was to do a build to suit an inline twin then I would configure to suit a fuselage and centre wing as one piece (one off bolt together) and the wingtips as removable.

A big long wing tube, most of the wiring would not messing around with, U/C again undisturbed and most likely plenty of room to get the duct in for cooling.

Chris at SLEC took just a few minutes on the CAD to put the Focke wing tubes in the ribs and everything slotted together a treat, plus all can be sorted out well before the building starts.

Almost sounds like I could be taking myself into something here, but I have a cat to sort out first.....

[Jon H]

Personally i like one piece wings that just bolt on the bottom of a fuselage. Its quick to assemble, simple, and in a crash you stand a chance of the bolts shearing and the damage being minimised.

Two part/plug in wings fill me with a rage i cant quite place. Not sure why, they just really annoy me. I think i will have to get over it though as my big Mustang has plug in wings.

However i suspect the answer to why bolt on the bottom wings are popular comes from the past. In the old days you had one servo in the middle with snakes or bellcranks to make the bits waggle and multi part wings would be a faff with all that going on. Now we have a single servo out there so its really easy and that is probably why they are a more popular choice these days.

[Robin Colbourne]

Posted by Nigel R on 03/12/2020 11:19:54:

I'm thinking structurally, you'd want the firewall to be on (or very very near) the wing LE made from 3/8 or 1/2 ply?

The firewall on the Spitfire was the core of the aeroplane. The engine attached to the front, the oil tank to the back, and the main spar to the bottom.

This video shows it well, right at the beginning:

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 03/12/2020 13:28:43

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 03/12/2020 13:29:48

[Chris Walby]

Cheers Robin, Interesting and logical that the bulkhead is in line with the main spar and not actually close to the LE and this gives even more room to fit a long inline engine in

[Nigel R]

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 03/12/2020 12:57:50:

Personally i like one piece wings that just bolt on the bottom of a fuselage. Its quick to assemble, simple, and in a crash you stand a chance of the bolts shearing and the damage being minimised.

And also provide a whacking great big access hole to the inside when removed. If you don't have that, you need a big hatch anyway.

Another thought. Imagine for a moment some heretic decided not to use the radial mount, and instead mated wooden beams to the inside of the fuselage (in the very old school way). Notwithstanding that wooden beam mounts are not exactly de rigeur these days, I'd assume that should they be properly fixed, it would be able to cope with having its neck wrung? 

Edited By Nigel R on 03/12/2020 15:11:30

[Jon H]

Another thought. Imagine for a moment some heretic decided not to use the radial mount, and instead mated wooden beams to the inside of the fuselage (in the very old school way).

Edited By Nigel R on 03/12/2020 15:11:30

Ugh, hardwood mounts.

The engine is going to be supplied with a lovely machined beam mount (not radial as in the video, you get the one in the photo i posted today) so use it, you void your warranty if you dont

The mount is quite multi functional. Its a mount (duh), but its also a heatsink for that rear cylinder and it helps with the torsional rigidity of the 3 part crankcase so its quite important.

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 03/12/2020 16:23:00

[Jon H]

Gents if we could keep this thread for the development stuff that would be great. We have the technical thread for these sorts of questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the powers vested in me recently, I have succeeded in moving the OT Posts to the requested Technical Questions thread. 

I believe I've done so without losing any posts but as it's my first time, I apologise in advance for any losses or inconvenience!

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/12/2020 18:04:47

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Going back to two piece wings, I have a seagull P 47, and I have blind nut in the fuselage and i use an allen key bolt to fix them via the hole where the wheels go,, tell me if you need a picture

Oh dear my spelling checker won't work here and the forum one is even worse !!!

[Jon H]

New year update on all things.

Engine stocks...rubbish, im working on it so not long now i hope.

Development things..well, headway is in fact being made. Today i was able to run up the first 3 inline's and they will, i hope, soon be on their way to their owners. I am working through my list of interested parties so if i didnt contact you yet, dont worry. So far not everyone has been able to justify taking an engine. With covid etc things are tight so its really not a problem and nobody should feel obligated to take one just because they expressed initial interest.

Going forward i think i am going to change the way i release new things. My initial plan was to test it, get it to 100% and then let it loose on the world. The problem is, that takes a very long time and means the whole project is just sat in limbo.

My new plan is that once an engine reaches a certain level in its development (like the inline and petrol are currently at) i will take an order from anyone who wants one provided they accept that the engine they buy is a pre production example and it may not have the same tried and tested reliability of our other products. Things might go wrong, it might have to be returned and remain here for an extended period of time in the event of a part needing redesign or whatever. To be clear, i wouldnt release it in this way if i expected major problems, but equally i cant guarantee it without thorough testing. Selling the engines as pre production and explaining what that means to the customer buying one i think will satisfy both parties.

I would be interested to know what everyone thinks about that as a concept.

 

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 19/01/2021 15:10:16

[J D 8]

It's what many car makers do all the time when a new model is released, the big difference is the car byers do not know they are in the extended development of that vehicle until it throws a wobbler at them. Never take the clever advertising bait and purchase a new model car. Your Idea of getting some enthusiast help in development is sound to me, Cheers, John.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Sounds like a good plan to me, especially if updated parts were made available to earlier adopters, I'd be interested in a Petrol Laser.

[Richard Wills 2]

With the sound back up which will undoubtedly be there i'm all for it

[Nigel R]

Your only problem will be those who refuse to understand what 'pre-production' means. I don't know what percentage of customers are awkward, but I guess you'd need to expect a higher proportion with an engine released at that slightly earlier stage.

In practice it might make no odds at all, knowing how much of a perfectionist you are about the engines!

[Peter Hammond 1]

I think it is a good idea as it will speed development. Personally I have never owned either a glow or petrol so I may not take up the offer myself, I wouldn't be the right person.

I'm 100% electric with sport prop, semi scale edf, and helicopters, but I'm planning a scale warbird build and am holding out until your inlines and petrols hit the market before I make final decisions.

Properly structured terms of sale is all that is needed. Within a season I would of thought most problems would of become apparent and so resolved.

[Brian Cooper]

I wouldn't mind being a guinea pig for a pre-production petrol engine.

[Solly]

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 19/01/2021 15:09:43:

New year update on all things.

Engine stocks...rubbish, im working on it so not long now i hope.

Development things..well, headway is in fact being made. Today i was able to run up the first 3 inline's and they will, i hope, soon be on their way to their owners. I am working through my list of interested parties so if i didnt contact you yet, dont worry. So far not everyone has been able to justify taking an engine. With covid etc things are tight so its really not a problem and nobody should feel obligated to take one just because they expressed initial interest.

Going forward i think i am going to change the way i release new things. My initial plan was to test it, get it to 100% and then let it loose on the world. The problem is, that takes a very long time and means the whole project is just sat in limbo.

My new plan is that once an engine reaches a certain level in its development (like the inline and petrol are currently at) i will take an order from anyone who wants one provided they accept that the engine they buy is a pre production example and it may not have the same tried and tested reliability of our other products. Things might go wrong, it might have to be returned and remain here for an extended period of time in the event of a part needing redesign or whatever. To be clear, i wouldnt release it in this way if i expected major problems, but equally i cant guarantee it without thorough testing. Selling the engines as pre production and explaining what that means to the customer buying one i think will satisfy both parties.

I would be interested to know what everyone thinks about that as a concept.

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 19/01/2021 15:10:16

That would do for me. I'm sure that most of us would buy an engine on that basis and would be willing to return it should any modification be necessary.

[kevin b]

The problem is Jon, that you are an aeromodeller and an engineer. Not a salesman !

The aeromodeller wants people to know what he is doing and how excited he is about it. The engineer wants to make sure it is near perfect as possible before distributing it. The salesman would say, "who cares, just let me sell them".

There is nothing wrong with your past approach, but as you are finding things are moving differently these days, for lots of reasons. What you are considering sounds like a sensible approach. The only question is whether it would have any effect on your product liability insurance.

PM heading your way.

[Rich too]

I agree, it’s a good idea Jon. It should get things moving quicker. If I was in the market I would do it.

[Jon H]

Thanks for the input guys. To cover a few of the raised points

There will always be those who choose to misunderstand what it is they are being told. It happens all the time now with fuel tank placement and cooling recommendations. When i say 'you must do X, Y or Z' they hear 'if you can be bothered, this is mostly a good idea but feel free to ignore me and take the advice of that loudmouth bloke at the field instead and then expect me to care when it dosent work and you call me wanting help'. Its a minority to be sure, but very irritating none the less.

Any engine sold as a pre production example will only be sold after the full situation has been explained. If the customer chooses to ignore that and get grumpy later then there is not much i can do. All pre production engines will be marked as such and the product page on the website will indicate its pre production status. If we really wanted we could make them sign something but who needs the hassle?

The idea of a separate section on the site for pre prod items is a good one, i just dont know if i can do it. Our website is rubbish.

Pre prod engines will receive upgrades on defective parts but will not receive all of the parts that a final production engine might see. For example the inline twin might, eventually, get a new exhaust but that would not be a free upgrade as the pre prod has an exhaust with it, its just a different design. Essentially, any mechanical show stoppers will be sorted but cosmetic/quality of life improvements may not. Its difficult to spell out exactly what will and wont be covered, but no one who buys a pre prod engine will be left with a lemon while i sell an upgraded version that works to everyone else.

Being a salesman..I have worked in a sales/customer facing role since i was 16. Im not bad at selling stuff and the more the better! However, i am not a used car salesman and if something is rubbish, over priced, really not worth it etc then i wont give it the time of day. To be honest, i dont understand why sales people try and flog stuff they know is junk. The customer will figure it out eventually and probably wont be back.

Just to cover a few points raised in a few PM's i got

Is my focus on new stuff a good idea when the normal range is out of stock and parts scarce? Maybe not, but its that or loose my mind. I cant just sit and do nothing so i will design new things. Also i can assemble an engine with my eyes closed, its not exactly thrilling after doing several thousand but designing new things presents an interesting challenge.

Do i have a business plan? Yes, build things, sell them, build more things, sell those as well. However, i dont run the place.

Do i want to offer more than engines? Yes. i would kill for a glowplug spanner that is not made of monkey metal. Beyond that i have plenty of ideas. Just on the engine side alone there are...15? new engines i think we should be working on right now, not including the 3 already on the table.

[David Davis]

[Nigel R]

"Is my focus on new stuff a good idea when the normal range is out of stock and parts scarce?"

Companies that fail to do R&D, fail.

So yes, it is not merely a good idea, it is essential.

 

"Beyond that i have plenty of ideas. Just on the engine side alone there are...15? new engines i think we should be working on right now, not including the 3 already on the table."

Excellent to hear.

Hope they will take advantage of commonality on existing parts; 3 cyl radial? Opposed twin? Flat four? Petrol carb applied to more engines, etc.

Edited By Nigel R on 20/01/2021 10:23:38