SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 In July, I sold a decent model and engine via the BMFA site for £130. The buyer paid by Paypal, and included all his contact details and address etc. I transferred the funds to my bank. The buyer arranged a courier, and after considerable effort I packaged up the model ready for collection. The courier arrived and took the model. To date, I had heard nothing, so assumed all ok. Out of the blue yesterday, I got an invoice from Paypal for £144. After contacting Paypal, it turned out that the buyer had asked his bank to stop the payment, as he had not authorised it. I tried contacting the buyer to establish what the issues were,, but my e.mails were returned. His bank obtained the funds from Paypal leaving me to settle the debt. Paypal were very sympathetic, but apart from refunding me the £14 chargeback fee could do little else. I have now instigated a case with Action Fraud, as otherwise there appears there is not much else I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Walsh Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 There is something else you can do, make a claim through the small claims court, nobody in their right mind would want a County Court Judgement ruining their credit record for the sake of £144. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Barsteward, Get back to Paypal again. It seems one has to make a fuss to get things sorted today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 In effect someone has stolen the model, so put the model details here in case the theif attempts to sell it. ( I assume the theif is not the buyer but someone who obtained the buyers bank details) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtom39 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Could I suggest that those using the BMFA Classifieds, should not disclose their email and phone numbers and just allow contact via the messaging service. I speak from experience. Simon, have you been in contact with Andy Symons at the BMFA . He is very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 There is no more Paypal can do, as they explained in great detail, they were just handling the funds, and were good enough to return the chargeback costs to me. I have taken out small claims against a client in the past, it was a very stressful undertaking, so that's a non starter for the sum involved. I am banking on Action Fraud helping me out, as I am led to believe they take a very dim view of this sort of thing irrespective of the amount involved. Paypal confirmed that this does happen from time to time, but is unusual. Worst case, I might have just have to write it off and learn from it. Its the last time I will ever post a model, next time its buyer collect or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tee Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Could you not involve the courier as they must know where they delivered the model to. They may say they are unable to give details due to privacy rules but maybe Action Fraud could take that up. John editted for bad spelling Edited By John Tee on 04/10/2020 13:46:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Doc, If I understand all this correctly it would be easy to: Purchase item and pay by Paypal. Get the goods. Wait for the transaction to show on your bank statement. Contact your bank and tell them you did not authorise the payment. After a bit of a delay, bank pays you. You end up with the goods for nothing. Its probably a bit more complicated than than that, but as far as I can see that's the gist of it. Not sure where this leaves me when it comes to selling yet more modelling items!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Posted by John Tee on 04/10/2020 13:45:50: Could you not involve the courier as they must know where they delivered the model to. They may say they are unable to give details due to privacy rules but maybe Action Fraud could take that up. John editted for bad spelling I don't think the issue is that the item was not delivered, more that the buyer did not authorise the payment, which to put it mildly is very odd, given the details they attached to the paypal payment (name and address etc). Edited By John Tee on 04/10/2020 13:46:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Dreadful experience Simon really. PayPal do guarantee transactions where there is " Proof of posting" to the Address PayPal state on their invoice. It is when we go " off piest " that cracks appear. PayPal customers get a rating, and delivery instructions are given dependent on the rating. If these are followed, then no surprises later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonryan Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 NEVER use 'friends & family' in either direction unless it's someone you know and trust. A stranger asking you to do so is an instant red flag. Sounds as if you have name, address, and presumably you know who the courier was. Plenty there for legal action. Send a 'Letter Before Action' : https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/Problems-with-goods---letter-before-court-action/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marsh Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I trust non-one. Best thing to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Smith 1 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I really feel for you predicament. Firstly, I have not sold anything via BMFA so I am not qualified to comment. However, I have sold numerous airframes via eBay and at the very beginning I researched the pitfalls. One of which was never to use a courier for pickup. So if I sell a big airframe it is always buyer collects and if they are too far away then that model is not for them. I have folks drive from Kent up to Suffolk and further so you know they are genuine. I always offer cash on collection which eBay allows for big items so the the buyer know what they are getting before taking it away. Both parties sign a receipt/sale of goods. Whether that is much protection I don’t know, but I have not had a problem. By the way I also have a bank note checker as extra insurance. Some collectors are happy to pay in advance via PayPal of collection, but I given them the choice. I really hope you get some recompense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I got well and truly caught out by Paypal too once. I ordered a s/h portable TV which was delivered in a sorry state with the box it was in collapsed and water pouring out of it. Unfortunately I had it delivered to work and the numbskull in the stores signed for it. Paypal said to send it back at my own expense which I duly did but could get no response from the seller, at which point PP closed the case and wanted nothing else to do with it, so I had no Telly and no 50 quid. I did however recently gain a £150 diesel heater for my shed which arrived damaged. The seller wanted me to return it to China although he was UK based. They refused to respond further so I repaired it and it is working great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly boy3 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I feel for you Simon. Just wondered if you would have had better protection if buyer paid by credit card ? I always use PP, but this post has me thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i12fly Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I hope you can sort something out on this Simon, I can understand how you feel. There are some nasty criminals about! I once sold a model on ebay and said 'cash on collection only', but the buyer just paid by paypal. It raised alarm bells as I'd heard this could be a scam so I told the person he must bring proof of identity when collecting, and took his car registration too. In the event he was genuine, but it was annoying that it cost me paypal charges too on what was an item sold cheaply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy J Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Out of interest how can you protect yourself from this type of fraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 I must be going through a bad patch........... I sold another model on e.bay two weeks ago. It was collect only, and the buyer paid by Paypal ok. As yet the buyer has yet to come and get it. Last week, he said he would be here this afternoon to collect. Guess what has happened?. Correct............nothing. Time for a Stella or six I reckon!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Doc. Thx. Just sent you a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I have sold various items over the last few years, with the buyers paying by PayPal, and there has never been a problem, BUT if the system simply allows the buyer to cancel the payment after they have taken delivery of the goodies , I shall insist on face-to-face transactions in the future, all paid for with cash. It seems we can't trust anyone anymore. . . . and that is truly very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 The first one is sneaky. I suspect the details they gave match the bank account but the courier was organised with different details and they're not going to divulge the info to you. Good reason to organise your own courier on such cases.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Ooh - pause for thought. I must say I have bought and sold via the BMFA Classifieds site and used PayPal Friend almost all the time. Perhaps I've been lucky as I've never had the same experience as in the OP. Should I continue or change my way of dealing with buyers and sellers via the BMFA site. I never put my email or phone number down. That way, it has to be a BMFA member with whom I'm dealing as no one else can get a log-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 I was interested in buying something today (not model related). Something about the advert got my senses "jangling" so, just to be on the safe side, I asked the seller to provide photo of the item with them holding it and also with a piece of paper clearly showing their name and the day's date. I was told to "go away"...... in rather unseemly words. I guess I dodged a bullet there. Buyers beware too. Edited By David Ashby - Moderator on 06/10/2020 09:18:43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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