Second Hand IC engines

[Dad_flyer]

Keeping firmly off topic.

 

What you will keep on using or restore depends on what you understand. I have basically no useful understanding of an IC engine. I can't see what is happening and I cannot measure or calculate it, which is how my mind works. Electric I can measure and  understand (at least up until the conversation from rotation to moving air to thrust). I can also continue to monitor in flight, which interests me.

 

As a result, I have an old Cox 049 that I did manage to run once for a short time, but not again. Fun but also frustrating. Whereas my first electric motor was second hand, has been a serious lawn dart twice, has had bent and broken shafts replaced, has been cleaned and fettled. It is currently sitting neatly in a box waiting for a Peter Miller Miss Deeds to be built for it, although it might suit a bigger model better. I do agree that it will not have any second hand or collector value to anyone else, but neither is it a short-lived disposable.

 

I do love many of the IC models I see at the club, and I am inspired by the IC restoration projects on this forum. The DH86 particularly has me hooked. It would just not make sense for me to own any of them as they then would not be likely to be flown much.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Dad_flyer
Typo

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That's an interesting perspective.  To me, IC is far more understandable and intuitive, even coming from an early electro-mechanical background but I can see your viewpoint.  How different the concept of measuring volts. amps and extrapolating power figures is to working with fuel efficiency and specific heat factors is, other than the easier availability of measuring equipment is maybe debatable but the bottom line is that we actually see neither energy conversion process.

 

To be honest, the figures are fairly irrelevant when dealing with IC - it takes only a little experience to get an idea of what engine and tank size to choose and propeller choice/experimentation won't hazard the components in the same way as a misjudgement in choice can easily fry an ESC or motor.

 

I honestly believe that I would be a less enthusiastic modeller if I were forced to use EP only but if there's an eventual glut of no longer wanted IC engines in the future, who am I to complain?

[Jon H]

Dad_flyer, you make an interesting point about how people are wired. 

 

To me, Electric is very calculated, very cold, exacting with no nuance or 'soul'. Its just really boring. 

 

Engines on the other hand have different characters. Some are laid back, some are vicious, some need to be tickled that certain way to get them to sing. My Magnum 240v is a horrible engine in many respects. Its difficult to tune, wont run upside down for very long, is about as refined as a badgers backside, vibrates like crazy and is essentially a 7000rpm oil fountain with its open rockers and all that. But, i love running it. The whole thing is so theatrical and its just fun to use. I need to get a big barnstorming type model for it and just let it do its thing. 

 

In any case, i will never cease to be in awe of the little machine fitted to the front of my model. Its made from tiny parts all whizzing about powered by fire and fury, yet somehow it does as i tell it! Oh and it makes a cool noise too ? 

  

 

I suppose its the same question as the new house with double glazing of the old stone cottage where you bang your head on every door. Steam train vs electric, tiger moth vs some new fibreglass thing. Im sure there are a million other examples. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Jon - Laser Engines

[Dave Brooks]

There must be some psychological condition that causes some of us to anthropomorphise machinery like this! I quite like the phrase 'mechanical sympathy' although I fear my other half would call it something else. Perhaps if you sniff too much oil during some critical period of development......

I love the variety and personality of IC engines. Even two of the same make and model can be different and you get to know their quirks and foibles. I find that my modelling process starts with the engine, something unusual, new to me or an irresistible ebay bargain which then provides the inspiration and direction for the rest of the project. What would suit the engine best, scale model, classic aerobat, old timer or maybe a biplane? Next comes the airframe to fit, (thank you outerzone). I can't imagine doing this with an electric setup despite many obvious advantages to that choice of power. I do have some small electric motors in very light models and a powered glider where they make perfect sense. 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Is it that odd, Dave?  Machines, maybe but machines which need feeding, caring for and understanding their needs.  Yes, they even breathe, in that they need sufficient air to keep them "alive" while consuming their fuel.  Electric motors are clean, efficient and practical, but in their simplest form just need a switch closing to start and run and even with brushless, the electronics do all the work and simply relay instructions from the throttle stick.

[Dave S.]

I agree completely with the recent posts in this thread, I have been modelling since the late 1960s and when I started, owning an engine seemed a distant dream. I can clearly remember the appearance, feel & smell of my first engine, a second hand AM 10. By the 1980s, I had 'proper' glow engines, and even 4 strokes with that lovely valve gear. Every engine has had its own individual character, something made up from its constituent parts and the subtle differences in fit between them. Every engine responded slightly differently to how you adjusted the needle valves, the compression screw or the fuel and prop you chose to use. 

I have dipped my toes into the clear clean waters of electric flight and whilst it certainly works, is clean, efficient & predictable it is these very features that render the experiment soul-less in my view. Give me a feisty, cantankerous, smelly, oily engine any day. 

We all drive around in our petrol driven modern cars (or diesel driven in my case) and some adventurous types even drive electric cars, but the true romance of the road still lies in unreliable vintage vehicles - just look at the steam enthusiasts! I used to ride Harley Davidsons, and most other riders agreed that they rode them because they had character. Usually the character was unpleasant - vibration, poor handling, unreliability (compared to modern motorcycles) - but we loved them for it.

I don't take part in this hobby to be efficient or on the cutting edge of technology, I build & fly model aeroplanes because I enjoy overcoming the natural obstacles that dictate that heavier than air machines really shouldn't fly - every successful flight is a triumph against gravity - and the noise, smell, and oily mess are badges of honour to be worn with pride.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yep me too, I love the noise, the mess and just handling them, great feeling when you flick n it bursts to life as sweet as a nut.

[Don Fry]

Lovely poetry Martin.
I’m no longer riding my mates dad’s Shire horses. Alive, ton and a bit, God you could think you are a knight on one of them. Until the thing, fed up, swept you off with a convenient branch. 
Consult the Laws of Thermodynamics. 
I do believe those electric jobs obey the same laws.

Just the parameters, and the fatal missteps are different. Nothing lives

 

 

 

[Jon H]

Im glad it isnt just me. 

 

A few years ago I took my girlfriend to a cornish tin mine museum. It still has its original winding engine installed and in working condition. The cornish chap gave us some history (which my American girlfriend didnt understand due to his thick accent) and then they fired up the old engine. On the way home i asked if she found it all interesting and was met with an approving nod. 

 

It wasnt until much later, when i suggested we visit the london museum of water and steam, than the truth about the whole thing came out. The kicker was the question 'will the engines be running?' I replied yes, and we then had permission to go! TO cut a long story short, she was bored to tears in cornwall and did not understand my facination with this old hunk of metal. That was, until it started up. She then began to understand what it was i saw in them and gave me permission to drag her round more old steam engines! 

 

 

[Richard Acland]

I have been involved in this hobby for over 50 years, from early days with small diesel engined control line models, to the present day with four stroke glow engines.

To me there is just something about model engines that I find fascinating. Having said that I do fly a lipo powered electric glider from time to time.

I think it can be best summed up when you you see the enthusiasm generated by steam railway enthusiasts as opposed to electric railway engines. There is just something about a steam engine at full chat that cannot be explained. I think it lot of it comes from the fact that ic engines can be tinkered with, taken to bits repaired and returned to their former glory, something that is difficult to do with an electric engine.

I have a particular passion for the OS 40 FSR engine, possibly because it was my first real RC Engine. Over the lockdown period I have bought several of these engines in various states. I have stripped, cleaned ,replaced bearings and tuned them. I will shortly be listing them on a well known site, probably not making a profit but mainly for the enjoyment of being able to do it.

 

[Rich Griff]

John laser engines....when unlocked down, visit the museum of internal fire, the live engine museum near aberporth in Wales, a really good day out and well worth a visit.

 

The coast road from Aberystwyth down to aberporth is a very scenic run too and great on a bike.

[Peter Miller]

My first engine was in 1954, a Frog 50.Never did get it to run. It has all been said above, every one is different with its own character.I have memories of many special ones.

The Oliver Tiger that burst into life after lying in a box for over six months when someone put a prop on it and flicked it over in his hand without even a prime.

The ED Baby that had to be drenched in fuel to start but then ran like a dream.

The Super Tigre G21/29 that could be hand started on a 7X10  wood propeller and 25% nitro and never bit me but which burnt out plugs at a frightening rate untiI started I using KLG brass knobs.

I now fly electric because at my age lugging a flight box across a field and up a hill leaves me gasping for air and exhausted but I still have some cherished engines

[J D 8]

   I find that small diesels are great for just popping out to the field [ on the farm ] for flight, Trany, aircraft and little fuel bottle.

[Dave Brooks]

Small diesels are also my 'quick fly' choice. Fuel bottle, gardening glove and transmitter and you're away!

 

To come back to the original topic a little, there certainly seem to be enough like minded buyers out there to keep prices in the half to two thirds of an equivalent new engine sort of territory, and substantially more where new equivalent sizes or configurations aren't available. Plenty of competition for small diesels as well, but I am the only one at our club who flies any, so who's buying all the rest? Are they going into collections or being flown elsewhere? Lots of the slightly more mature club members seem to have drawers full of them at home and aren't in the market for more having been there and done that before. Four stroke glow engines do seem to be having something of a 'renaissance' thanks in part to our hosts and some media channels (anyone else found the Petrincic Bros. RC on YouTube?). Perhaps I am underestimating the size of the market?

[Bob Cotsford]

17 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

In any case, i will never cease to be in awe of the little machine fitted to the front of my model. Its made from tiny parts all whizzing about powered by fire and fury, yet somehow it does as i tell it! Oh and it makes a cool noise too ? 

That captures the essence of IC engines for me, whether it's a little Cox .010 or a 1L superbike.  Unfortunately while the awe remains the simplicity and ease of operation of electrickery has become of more importance for me of late.

[Engine Doctor]

On 24/04/2021 at 08:57, Peter Miller said:

My first engine was in 1954, a Frog 50.Never did get it to run. It has all been said above, every one is different with its own character.I have memories of many special ones.

Ah the Frog 50 ! ! ! I once offered to rebore a Frog 50 for a club mate. He had had it for years and had worn it out trying to start it. New piston made and lapped , fresh fuel , an hour later not a pop ! I thought perhaps the piston was too short so made another ! After five pistons and not a pop I gave up on it. Only engine to beat me ?. The smaller they are the more cantankerous !

[Peter Miller]

When I was writing "The Engine Bay" we had some discussion about the Frog 50.  One person told me that to get them running the dodge was to run them on a 10" prop at first!!!

Another reader sent me a Frog50 which actually ran so I could say I had run one.I then sent it back to him.

I traded my first one in to Henry J Nichols for enough balsa to build a rubber powered model. I seem to remember that it was the APS Sky

Ranger

Mine was a Birthday present  which I bought in Hamleys Regent street.

The chaps in the model department did try their very best to persuade me to forget the kit that was part of the present and buy a Mills .75.

That was 1953.

[J D 8]

5 hours ago, Engine Doctor said:

Ah the Frog 50 ! ! ! I once offered to rebore a Frog 50 for a club mate. He had had it for years and had worn it out trying to start it. New piston made and lapped , fresh fuel , an hour later not a pop ! I thought perhaps the piston was too short so made another ! After five pistons and not a pop I gave up on it. Only engine to beat me ?. The smaller they are the more cantankerous !

  A friend had a frog 80, same thing never ran.

[Gary Manuel]

19 minutes ago, J D 8 said:

  A friend had a frog 80, same thing never ran.

It had obviously croaked ?

[Peter Miller]

The Frog 80 had a sort of rubber sealing ring round the contra piston which did not help the compression

 I had one but don't  remember running it

[GONZO]

That would be the early Mk1. Frog reverted to the standard contra piston arrangement subsequently.

 

[J D 8]

  I was putting in some bids on an RCV 90cd just because I like odd engines, but no where near the final price of £200

   There was a tatty old OS 20 with it but still.

Could purchase a new Laser 80 from Jon for £60 more.

[Jon H]

57 minutes ago, J D 8 said:

 

Could purchase a new Laser 80 from Jon for £60 more.

 

There are a few lasers on ebay at the moment with very imaginative prices. One is within about 10 quid of new for a 25 year old used engine. Pretty nuts. 

 

I would like an RCV120 (the long geared one) as i have always thought they were under propped in the instructions and wanted to experiment. They always seem to go for silly money though so i haver never been able to snag one. 

[Don Fry]

Might I tempt you with the 60 version?

[buster prop]

I also suffered from a Frog 50. Mine was bought at a jumble sale for 5 shillings (25p) in the early 1960s. I never managed to start it either and bought a DC Merlin instead. That was easy to get going and was eventually lost in a fly away. Although I fly electric now I still like small Diesels. I don't know what became of the Frog 50, haven't got it now. Can't say I miss it.