Battle of Britain on Channel Five right now

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

I wish people would stop using "computer games" as a negative here. You have no idea what you're talking about, and to continue to do so is lazy and smug.

 

In a film you have computer generated imagery, which is easier, safer and cheaper than designing, building and destroying huge numbers of full-size or miniature craft. If the CGI is done well it will integrate seamlessly and be a natural part of the frame, drawing the viewer in.

 

As with everything, you get what you pay for and there is a difference between cheap and value. To make truly realistic cgi you need a lot of people, expensive kit and a lot of money to pay for the time and talent. Bare in mind that 90% of budgets range from a few thousand to a few million, which is not nearly enough to cover everything a film needs from pre- to post-production, marketing, distribution etc

 

As a result most films are financial investment devices for distributing and hiding investors money, so the film only spends enough to look like a worthwhile endeaver and recoupe what it needs to in order to fulfil the terms of the investment contract.

 

A computer game is an interactive experience which may have great graphics at a cost, but may only have a handful of cinema-quality cut scenes.

[Jonathan M]

As it happens I'm currently reading "Flying Start" by Hugh Dundas.  Time and again, when relating his experience of dogfights in 1940, he says that one minute the sky was a total confusion of fighters, the next minute (or less!) he was completely alone in an empty sky.  (Dundas is also very honest about his fear, especially in the earlier stages when he's less experienced and also close to burn-out due to the relentlessness of the defence; the New Zealander Alan Deere in his own book "Nine Lives" reported the same thing.)

 

No film - whether using original/replica/disguised aircraft or CGI animation - can ever (in my opinion) approach to the realism of reading in print actual first-hand accounts of war flying.

 

Despite my fascination with the subject, I'm just thankful that I've lived my life in a time of peace!

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Read a book, you're in charge of the Imagery, often outdoes the screen version also.

[David Holland 2]

A bit like the radio, the pictures are much better……….

[Dale Bradly]

An often overlooked angle from our narrow viewpoint. These productions (e.g. BoB, Dunkirk, Red Tails, 1917 and of course Top Gun!) are NOT made for the minority of the audience who maybe aircraft/war/historical enthusiasts. They are mass market productions which bring the story to a wider audience, to which they do admirably so these stories are not forgotten, or even learned anew. To write them off because they are historically inaccurate is to misunderstand what they were made for. 

If you are reading this, you aren't the target market, so enjoy them for what they are.

[PatMc]

On 03/10/2021 at 10:12, Cuban8 said:

... but I think the balance does tip in its favour of being the most influential film about the Battle of Britain conflict. Not forgetting that without the film, it's very unlikely that the warbird movement in this country would ever have got off the ground, so to speak.  Moreover, I wonder how many of us who saw the film either first time round or later on re-release and on TV had the seeds of that R/C Spit sown or model aircraft in general. I know I spent a fortune on Airfix kits at the time to give me my own opposing air forces and fought the battle in my young mind's eye many times over.

In what respect is it influential ? 

For me the portrayal our defence strategy in action & Olivier in the part of Dowding were more interesting than the so - so flying scenes. 

I think the film had little effect on the popularity of modelling military aircraft (I hate the term "warbirds" & find the suggestion that there's such a thing as a "warbird movement" laughable). Just about every kit manufacturer was producing kit's of Spitfires, Hurricanes & many other military aircraft from the mid '40s on. The popularity of these aircraft as RC models was due to the advent of practical & affordable multi channel gear & would have happened without the film.

I saw the film in a cinema, I've watched parts of it a few times & think watched it from start to finish once on TV. Overall I thought it was quite a good film but not as good as Torra! Torra! Torra! .       

[Nigel R]

Some of you chaps don't seem to watch many films... if you thought Dunkirk and 1917 were awful, you should try some of the other mainstream fodder out there.

 

BoB is a bit clunky as a film. It was "of its time" in many ways I suspect. Had excellent airbourne shots. Combat realism? Don't know, I wasn't alive, not a BoB veteran, nevertheless, enjoyed it and both the other named war films too, BoB is a classic for a reason, it is a standout film in a number of ways.

 

Any film made primarily to entertain requires the ability to overlook the small stuff. They're only ever a springboard for digging through the real history, if it fires interest enough.

 

See there's a new Bond out soon... I doubt real spies work much like James Bond...

 

[Richard Acland]

As a matter of interest what type of radio equipment was used to control the models in BoB. I always assumed that true proportional equipment wasn't around until later than the 1960s. I remember my Brother showing me his Flight Link gear in the early 1970s which I assumed was the first of its kind.

[Cuban8]

11 hours ago, PatMc said:

In what respect is it influential ? 

For me the portrayal our defence strategy in action & Olivier in the part of Dowding were more interesting than the so - so flying scenes. 

I think the film had little effect on the popularity of modelling military aircraft (I hate the term "warbirds" & find the suggestion that there's such a thing as a "warbird movement" laughable). Just about every kit manufacturer was producing kit's of Spitfires, Hurricanes & many other military aircraft from the mid '40s on. The popularity of these aircraft as RC models was due to the advent of practical & affordable multi channel gear & would have happened without the film.

I saw the film in a cinema, I've watched parts of it a few times & think watched it from start to finish once on TV. Overall I thought it was quite a good film but not as good as Torra! Torra! Torra! .       

Not influential now, but back in 1968/69 it did bring the battle to the attention of a new generation (myself included at 12 at the time) via the cinema, in vibrant wide screen and colour. Close in filming from the B25 camera 'plane was also unusual and advanced for the time. Before that it was 1950s black and white repeats of Reach for the Sky and the Dambusters on your 12" telly. As good as those films are of course.

Yes, we were 'Airfixing' years before the film, but we tend to forget just how powerful cinema was at the time and I really feel that it gave many people a push to investigate the subject further.

Not sure why 'warbird movement' is amusing. We can certainly thank very many people who have given their all to the restoring and flying of hundreds of WW2 military aircraft over the decades. If that's not a movement towards a common goal, what is?

Agree Torra! Torra! Torra! is very good - Battle of Midway (which I saw in the original 'Sensurround, complete with falling plaster from the cinema ceiling) also stands up well providing you fast forward the slushy boy-girl stuff.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Cuban8

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

As we were studying the early/mid 20th century for O level history we were dispatched to the local cinema to be “educated”.  I’m not sure quite how much it helped though…the most memorable scenes for a 15 year old boy involved Susannah York!

[John Lee]

1 hour ago, Richard Acland said:

As a matter of interest what type of radio equipment was used to control the models in BoB. I always assumed that true proportional equipment wasn't around until later than the 1960s. I remember my Brother showing me his Flight Link gear in the early 1970s which I assumed was the first of its kind.

Kraft radio, by then well established. See the thread I linked to with my post on Page 1 Sunday 9:48 for full details.

[GrumpyGnome]

15 hours ago, Lima Hotel Foxtrot said:

I wish people would stop using "computer games" as a negative here. You have no idea what you're talking about, and to continue to do so is lazy and smug.

 

 

I referred to scenes looking like a computer game, as the scenes referred to DO look just like cut scenes in computer games - not necessarily in-game footage.

 

So, I do know what I am talking about; I am neither being lazy or smug. I am simply expressing my opinion, which is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

[Cuban8]

On the computer games thing, I've mentioned before that I have younger members of my family who work professionally on the development of modern games software and I have to say that from what I've seen of the latest incarnations, when played on powerful consoles, the results are very impressive. It's getting very close to not being able to tell the difference between real and CGI but it's not 100% there yet.   To be fair, I'd not be too sure particularly when watching a character talking, if I didn't know it was games footage.

The trouble is (for some of us at least) is that when some CGI is mixed with genuine real world live action the effect can be jarring and not credible. This is less so for out and out sci-fi fantasy which can be taken and accepted at face value. An excellent example IMHO is 'Gravity' where the scenes are obviously far fetched but make a good fictional spectacular.

On the other hand I'm sure I spied a Zero or whatever it was knife-edging between the American ships in the awful 'Pearl Harbor'.

 

 

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Think it's called entertainment, aimed at the masses not the expert, no way could could Sarah Connor outrun a Terminator, but it made for a longer film.

 

I'll be back, maybe. ?

[GrumpyGnome]

I may be in the minority (almost certainly) but I find Pearl Harbour very entertaining - I do ignore the HUGE historical misrepresentations..........

 

I think BoB is also excellent entertainment.  Had the music as an 'ear worm' for last few days. 

[leccyflyer]

As I think I mentioned earlier the Battle of Britain soundtrack is my musical accompaniment en route to the club field. If I start it going at a set point and check that I'm in the right place when I pass a certain point closer to the field I can usually pull up in the pits as the last note of Sir William Walton's "Battle in the Air" sounds.  Apart from that epic track, the rest of the partial score that he supplied isn't to my taste - Ron Goodwin's score is much better and fits the rest of the action perfectly. If it hadn't been for Sir Laurence Olivier's insistence, Walton's music probably wouldn't have featured at all, but he dug his heels in and the climactic scenes were assembled to accompany the music.

[Don Fry]

3 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Think it's called entertainment, aimed at the masses not the expert, no way could could Sarah Connor outrun a Terminator, but it made for a longer film.

 

I'll be back, maybe. ?

Oooo, another lady with nice legs. I would claim some expertise in nice legs. Going to lie down now in a cool dark place now.

[PatMc]

11 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

Not influential now, but back in 1968/69 it did bring the battle to the attention of a new generation (myself included at 12 at the time) via the cinema, in vibrant wide screen and colour. Close in filming from the B25 camera 'plane was also unusual and advanced for the time. Before that it was 1950s black and white repeats of Reach for the Sky and the Dambusters on your 12" telly. As good as those films are of course.

Yes, we were 'Airfixing' years before the film, but we tend to forget just how powerful cinema was at the time and I really feel that it gave many people a push to investigate the subject further.

Not sure why 'warbird movement' is amusing. We can certainly thank very many people who have given their all to the restoring and flying of hundreds of WW2 military aircraft over the decades. If that's not a movement towards a common goal, what is?

Agree Torra! Torra! Torra! is very good - Battle of Midway (which I saw in the original 'Sensurround, complete with falling plaster from the cinema ceiling) also stands up well providing you fast forward the slushy boy-girl stuff.

So it "influenced" some of the adolescent (IMO mainly male) population of 1968/9, in that it made them aware of a crucial air battle that had taken place during 1940. You may be surprised to learn that virtually all of us older than yourself were completely familiar with the history of the battle. In fact from 1945 to some time in the 1960's, or possibly later, many RAF stations held a weekend open days event during September to mark the Battle of Britain anniversary, with air displays & static displays of various sorts. These events were very popular with the general public & commonly known as "Battle of Britain" air shows. The first RAF all jet aerobatic teams were formed from to take part in the events, the Red Arrows being the only(?) surviving team.

When I mentioned the plethora of kits of military aircraft models available before the BoB film I didn't mean non-flying.

Incidentally cinema wasn't all that powerful in the 60' & 70's, in fact many cinemas closed down permanently or converted to bingo halls over those decades, TV was more powerful by then.

What you call the Warbird "movement" is in effect a number of commercial entertainments enterprises carried out largely by people who enjoy being around or connected with airshows & air experience flights etc involving ex-military aircraft. By the same token I suppose that makes Elton John part of the Pop Music "movement"  ? 

      

Edited October 5, 2021 by PatMc

[Peter Christy]

I'm not a fan of war films. They rarely do justice to the bravery (or otherwise) of those involved, and in the case of Hollywood productions, seem to forget that anyone other than Americans  were involved. Having said that, I do feel the BoB probably captures some of the atmosphere of the time.

 

Regarding the CGI versus models, if you want to see some truly awful model sequences have a look at "Capricorn One" - in particular the sequence where the helicopter flies into the cliff face, and a tray full of servos flies out...!!!

 

--

Pete

 

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

22 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

 

I referred to scenes looking like a computer game, as the scenes referred to DO look just like cut scenes in computer games - not necessarily in-game footage.

 

So, I do know what I am talking about; I am neither being lazy or smug. I am simply expressing my opinion, which is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

Calm down dear, it's just a comment relating to what a lot of people have said on a thread.

[Cuban8]

13 hours ago, PatMc said:

So it "influenced" some of the adolescent (IMO mainly male) population of 1968/9, in that it made them aware of a crucial air battle that had taken place during 1940. You may be surprised to learn that virtually all of us older than yourself were completely familiar with the history of the battle. In fact from 1945 to some time in the 1960's, or possibly later, many RAF stations held a weekend open days event during September to mark the Battle of Britain anniversary, with air displays & static displays of various sorts. These events were very popular with the general public & commonly known as "Battle of Britain" air shows. The first RAF all jet aerobatic teams were formed from to take part in the events, the Red Arrows being the only(?) surviving team.

When I mentioned the plethora of kits of military aircraft models available before the BoB film I didn't mean non-flying.

Incidentally cinema wasn't all that powerful in the 60' & 70's, in fact many cinemas closed down permanently or converted to bingo halls over those decades, TV was more powerful by then.

What you call the Warbird "movement" is in effect a number of commercial entertainments enterprises carried out largely by people who enjoy being around or connected with airshows & air experience flights etc involving ex-military aircraft. By the same token I suppose that makes Elton John part of the Pop Music "movement"  ? 

      

You are quite right about the air-mindedness of those who took an interest in the huge aviation advances that were happening during the 1950s and 60s. I am also very aware of the knowledge and experience of those at the sharp end of the Battle of Britain and The Blitz, as I recall many delightful hours as a kid listening to my Nan's stories of how they were bombed out of their East End homes on several occasions. I also attended the Battle of Britain 'at home' days at RAF Coltishall in the mid to late 60s. Vulcans, Victors, Lightnings,  QRA demos....lovely!

The 'movement' that I refer to is really that group of a  few (and not always fabulously  wealthy) people who went out of their way early on in the UK to save airframes from destruction either by disinterested owners or wanton neglect by officaldom, with a view to returning historic aircraft to operation. Their own satisfaction is/was a major factor, but a wider sense of preserving history was also at play with a hope that the money side would take care of itself.  Obviously, things moved on and I agree that many later commercial interests  without, perhaps, the pure historic side as their guiding light have expanded for those who can or wish to indulge themselves. I'm afraid that IMHO we are seeing more of this taking hold at IWM Duxford, to a certain extent at Old Warden and not entirely connected with the aircraft per se. - a discussion for another day!

See the documentary about the late Nick Grace who is typical of those enthusiasts 'on a mission' in the 70s and 80s, and his battle to return OUV to the air, and which is now a much loved aircraft flown still flow albeit in a more modern and essential commercial fashion by his family, I believe.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Cuban8

[Tony Harrison 2]

3 hours ago, Peter Christy said:

I'm not a fan of war films. They rarely do justice to the bravery (or otherwise) of those involved, and in the case of Hollywood productions, seem to forget that anyone other than Americans  were involved. Having said that, I do feel the BoB probably captures some of the atmosphere of the time.

 

 

--

Pete

 

Hi Peter. Me neither, in general: most war films range from mediocre to cringe-making. The best I know were made either during WW2 or shortly after. As I've said elsewhere, IMO the series from a few years ago, "Band Of Brothers", is an exception. But re Americans, my late father used to cite a Hollywood film about Stilwell in Burma (never seen it, forget the title) which he claimed ignored the 14th Army and suggested Burma was retaken from the Japs by Americans! He was out there himself, and decades later was still incensed about that film.

rgds Tony

[Nigel R]

1 hour ago, Tony Harrison 2 said:

As I've said elsewhere, IMO the series from a few years ago, "Band Of Brothers", is an exception.

 

Yes.

 

See also, "The Pacific"

 

same style etc.

[John Stainforth]

For me, the  flying scenes were the high point of this movie, but how high is a question for some debate as we have seen in this discussion. There is no doubt, too, that the movie gave a big boost to the warbird restoration industry: that is well documented. But the movie did not do very well when it came out (I think it lost money), particularly outside the UK, mainly because of its thin, jingoistic, cliche-ridden script. Roger Ebert, the film critic of the Chicago Sun, gave it 1* for this reason. On balance, I would give it 3*

 

There are very few war movies that have really worked for me: Saving Private Ryan was one, and Das Boot another.

Edited October 6, 2021 by John Stainforth

[leccyflyer]

Just watching this documentary on one of the satellite channels - 13 Hours That Saved Britain. Lots of nice unused footage from the 1969 United Artists film in this one and lots of eye-witness accounts.

Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5m_tz4Bjk