First taste of the sky

[Learner]

Toto, try to keep your enthusiasm, your at the hardest stage.

Trying to get enough stick time to improve and relying on others to give up there time to help is getting harder every year and is why many pack up this wonderful hobby.

The fact you work makes things much harder as trying to get weather, instructors and yourself together often enough is a big problem.

I belong to two clubs, one trains midweek the other no longer has any instructors but fortunately I can fly solo now so try to help if I can (not complete beginners).

I dont know what the answer is and theres no magic wand so I can only advise, to make yourself available as much as you can when weather is suitable and instructors are free.

If you have another club local join that as well as different sites have different wind direction preferences so can open new windows

Use a sim, its not the same and can be boring (I put headphones on and listen to music) just treat it as a learning tool because any stick time helps.

Good luck and enjoy.

 

[toto]

Does that mean I'm sort of normal then. 

 

One thing I'll say and it's just been proven in one of the comments with reference to the instruction manual for the transmitter. There appears to be a few ways that you can bind etc. I'm fine with that but sometimes it appears that I .... as well as other... ask questions that are all to obvious in the manual. It's not I dont read them but more ... get a little confused and of course it takes time to sink in. I am in my late fifties and must admit, the old grey matter isn't as fast at processing as it used to be.

 

Thanks for hanging on in there.

 

Toto

[Learner]

7 minutes ago, toto said:

Does that mean I'm sort of normal then. 

 

One thing I'll say and it's just been proven in one of the comments with reference to the instruction manual for the transmitter. There appears to be a few ways that you can bind etc. I'm fine with that but sometimes it appears that I .... as well as other... ask questions that are all to obvious in the manual. It's not I dont read them but more ... get a little confused and of course it takes time to sink in. I am in my late fifties and must admit, the old grey matter isn't as fast at processing as it used to be.

 

Thanks for hanging on in there.

 

Toto

Modern Instructions are the devils work!

[GrumpyGnome]

toto, you are as normal as the rest of us.....

[paul devereux]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

Very good last point there Toto.

 

Electric soarers are all well and good, but you wouldn't be able to take a "standard A FW test" with one of those, since the model must be capable of taking off from the ground. The model must also weigh more than 1Kg. I'm not sure about the SAA Bronze,but, given the type of models that you have, there would be no advantage starting off your learning curve with a hand launched electric glider, since you are going to want to learn to take off and land sooner, rather than later.

 

When the time comes you'll easily be able to fly your Max Thrust Aggressor and if you have any local slopes, it makes a superb slope soaring glider as an extra part of the hobby.

 

Hard luck with hitting the fence - as Cuban 8 says, if there is anything remotely resembling an obstruction in your field someone is almost guaranteed to hit it, no matter where it is situated. Hope that the repair is a minor one and that your Beaver is ready to take to the air once you are back from your holidays.

 Good to point out about the A Test! That precludes a glider. That's a point I hadn't thought about!

[Simon Chaddock]

toto

Perhaps this might explain the emphasis that is put on the "keep it simple" advice for RC learners.

This my first Tx in the modern era although it was seriously 'old fashioned' even when I bought it new in 2008 with an associated RTF high wing pusher trainer.

 

Forget the switches in the red circles they were later DIY additions.

The basic controls are simple indeed as apart from the 4 servo reversing switches there is nothing else you can set up. The RTF plane was about as crash proof as is possible so you just got on with it, learning from your mistakes.

You can tell from its rather pristine condition I did not use it for that long, about 18 months, before moving on to more complex Futaba & Spektrum Txs. This way I kept the "learning to fly RC" and "Understanding a Tx" periods separate.

15 years later I still fly the trainer although it is now heavily modified to give a flight performance and duration well beyond that of the original.

 

[MattyB]

15 hours ago, paul devereux said:

I've said this before, and I may be in a minority, but I think you are making things very complicated for a learner. I would suggest you put the complex planes aside and just learn to fly on a simple plane like this:

[Vid removed]

 

It depends on your goals. I learnt on a r/e model (the DB Rookie) with similar handling characteristics to the Radian, but this was well before the days of viable electric flight, so all my flying was done off the slope. This was fine as slope soaring was cheap and accessible to me at the time, and I wanted to get into fast aerobatic slopers. There was no club, but all my instruction came from my Dad so that was not an issue. We also didn't have a buddy box setup at the time, so got by just handing the TX back and forth. The result was I became a competent pilot not worried about the wind pretty quickly (9 year olds generally shrug off the first crashes and get on with it, mostly cos I knew I could angle Dad to completing the repair! 😉).

 

However, going this route meant there was no A test to shoot for (I don't believe there were no BMFA gliding tests at that point, and even if there were examiners would have been like rocking horse dung). It also meant that, whilst I had a good understanding of the dynamics of flight, I knew nothing about the safety requirements, airmanship or etiquette of power flying on a flat field site. Had my goals been to fly powered aircraft I would definitely have been better off starting with the standard IC (or electric nowadays) trainer + buddy box + club instructor that Toto is following. Even if I only wanted to fly e-gliders and was starting today, assuming I was starting in a club environment I would still suggest starting with a wheeled powered trainer, as that will be easier to get instruction on and will be flyable in a wider range of conditions.

 

14 hours ago, paul devereux said:

@toto It seems you're having a lot of hard work and not much fun so far. Yeah, I'm sure the Radian pilot was experienced, but it is the sort of plane one could enjoy learning to fly on- no worries about rates, 'dialling-in', swapping memory cards etc, as a learner you need to learn how the plane reacts when you put in control inputs, and you need to learn orientation so it becomes instinctive. I think that you could soon learn to fly circuits and keep the plane level, and practise landing approaches and then powering up to go round again with a powered glider. All the setting-up involved with the Beaver sounds like full-size aviation.

 

...It may be we have different approaches to the hobby- I've read your questions about programming ESCs for twin engines, etc, and it may be you like all that technical stuff. I'm too much the opposite, all I want is a power source to be able to fly a plane, and the minimum I need to know to keep it maintained.

 

This might seem harsh, but I suggest that (as a self-confessed beginner) you step back for now from advising fellow beginners who at the same stage (or who may even be further along). This is a complex hobby and it's hard for a beginner to appreciate the things that they don't know and need to learn at the start, and what is important vs. less so.

 

There are many ways into this hobby, and not everyone will choose/use/be successful via the same one. Advising people on the "best" route to achieve their goals can really only come if a) you've chatted to them about their goals, and b) you have enough practical experience of different methods of starting in the hobby to be able to advise them based on those goals. This is why I suggest you concentrate on your own journey for now - focus on soaking up as much info as possible from your instructor(s) and the experienced posters here, and learn not just when you are on the sticks and online,  but also by watching other pilots (beginner and experienced) at the field so you can learn from their successes and mistakes. I'm sure if you do that you will be succesful whichever route you choose - best of luck.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by MattyB

[toto]

Hi Simon,

 

Were you able to buddy your TX with others for training? 

 

I agree that simpler the better but I had been speaking with a couple of clubs before either joining them or having bought anything and they all sort of said the same thing .... Futaba and Spektrum as well as a couple of others. They also recommended " future proofing " by buying something suitable enough to use whilst training, capable of linking to other members for buddying and of course being able to see me through the passage of time with my first few likely models. A 6 channel minimum .... hence the NX6. 

 

Once I decided to provide the whole buddy system myself to save any comparability issues, I bought the NX8 as I had by then looked at so many potential future models, I could see the wisdom of having a couple of extra channels .... thinking, eventually retracts and the like.

 

The advice available is huge and as just one question of a hundred people .... and guess what ..... you get 100 answers    .

 

I can absolutely see where you are coming from so ..... thanks for your response as it is very relevant.

 

Toto 

[MattyB]

10 minutes ago, toto said:

...I agree that simpler the better but I had been speaking with a couple of clubs before either joining them or having bought anything and they all sort of said the same thing .... Futaba and Spektrum as well as a couple of others. They also recommended " future proofing " by buying something suitable enough to use whilst training, capable of linking to other members for buddying and of course being able to see me through the passage of time with my first few likely models. A 6 channel minimum .... hence the NX6. 

 

Once I decided to provide the whole buddy system myself to save any comparability issues, I bought the NX8 as I had by then looked at so many potential future models, I could see the wisdom of having a couple of extra channels .... thinking, eventually retracts and the like.

 

I agree you should continue to put more weight on the advice that you are receiving locally from your club and instructors vs. thsi forum, purely because they are the people providing your practical instruction. Posters here may not agree with every aspect of the kit they request you use or the procedures/process by which they instruct, but that will always be the case as every instructor does things a little differently. At the end of the day you need one or more instructors to teach you the basics and get you to solo standard, so you want and need to keep them onside by making their experience instructing you as easy as possible - the approach you are taking should do that IMO.

 

[Simon Chaddock]

toto

No buddy option it just relied on the indestructability of the RTF.

No club, I was flying alone but as a life long plane flyer and builder, but not RC, I judged that I understood what the plane was doing, most of the time! Crashing and repairing was certainly expected and it did!

I knew I was not 'future proofing' but I felt the decision on which 'next' transmitter was best left to later when I would better understand what the differences might mean to me.

I would certainly agree with MattyB that if you are being taught to fly at a club follow what they advise but also try to keep an open mind on what is likely to be an 'opinion' and what is a 'hard and fast' rule. 

[Cuban8]

23 minutes ago, toto said:

Hi Simon,

 

Were you able to buddy your TX with others for training? 

 

I agree that simpler the better but I had been speaking with a couple of clubs before either joining them or having bought anything and they all sort of said the same thing .... Futaba and Spektrum as well as a couple of others. They also recommended " future proofing " by buying something suitable enough to use whilst training, capable of linking to other members for buddying and of course being able to see me through the passage of time with my first few likely models. A 6 channel minimum .... hence the NX6. 

 

Once I decided to provide the whole buddy system myself to save any comparability issues, I bought the NX8 as I had by then looked at so many potential future models, I could see the wisdom of having a couple of extra channels .... thinking, eventually retracts and the like.

 

The advice available is huge and as just one question of a hundred people .... and guess what ..... you get 100 answers    .

 

I can absolutely see where you are coming from so ..... thanks for your response as it is very relevant.

 

Toto 

Toto, you've achieved a lot in a short period of time and have begun to familiarise yourself with the vast range of different ways to become involved with this hobby. Much of that stuff simply didn't exist when I started, fifty years ago, but we still had the same basic problems to overcome although we weren't distracted anywhere near the same degree by the plethora of different gizmos and methods that add to the confusion of the 2023  beginner.

You are clearly very ethusiastic, but it worries me that you might begin to fall foul of 'burn out' - obviously, I don't know you personally, but I have seen this problem before where some people get very excited in the early stages (good), but because their efforts become shifted away from  the primary objective of mastering the basics, they're tempted by all the other 'good stuff' around these days and begin to feel a bit overwhelmed. We're only human, and you can get too much of a good thing by trying to do too much at once.

Just something I'd thought I'd mention based on past experience - Good luck, I'm sure it'll all work out.

[John Lee]

Just for the sake of completeness as there have been a couple of references to electric soarers and the 'A' test.

 

The BMFA Achievements scheme offers 'Silent Flight Electric' Certificates at both 'A' and 'B' level. Any Examiner can examine for the 'A' Test and there is no minimum model weight limit.

 

More details here:

 

https://achievements.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Silent-Flight-Electric-Mar-2023.pdf 

 

 

[leccyflyer]

1 minute ago, John Lee said:

Just for the sake of completeness as there have been a couple of references to electric soarers and the 'A' test.

 

The BMFA Achievements scheme offers 'Silent Flight Electric' Certificates at both 'A' and 'B' level. Any Examiner can examine for the 'A' Test and there is no minimum model weight limit.

 

More details here:

 

https://achievements.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Silent-Flight-Electric-Mar-2023.pdf 

 

 

Indeed - that's why I referred to a Standard A FW test, which I guessed was what Toto was referring to.

[paul devereux]

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

This might seem harsh, but I suggest that (as a self-confessed beginner) you step back for now from advising fellow beginners who at the same stage (or who may even be further along). This is a complex hobby and it's hard for a beginner to appreciate the things that they don't know and need to learn at the start, and what is important vs. less so.

Matty, I can assure you my only desire is to be helpful to toto, both on learning and spending!  I think @Simon Chaddock gets my point of view. I know nothing about r/c flying, but decades ago I used to build from plans and kits, rubber-powered, C/L and free-flight Cox-powered planes. So I know a bit about aeromodelling and getting a plane to fly. But I'm bowing out, I don't want to cause controversy and I certainly don't want to confuse toto with regard to his learning style (we all get there in the end).

 

[PDB]

6 hours ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

Yep, but page 20 of the manual allows you to set up the master tx to either Programable Instructor or Pilot Link, if using the former then the model settings need to be installed on the student tx, the later needs no settings on the student tx.

Good point, we used "Pilot Link" to simplify the process by not having to have a matching model and settings on the slave.👍

[toto]

Paul,

 

Dont feel obliged to bow out as you say. You regularly contribute on other posts as well and I appreciate that. At the end of the day it's just opinions that are all with best intentions. I dont think you will cause any controversy. 

 

Posting on forums always brings the widest possible catchment of comments / answers, I understand that as much if not more than most as I own my own model railway related forum. Our motto is " everyone welcome " we encourage everyones views. Sometimes they dont match mine but I wouldn't dream of trying to silence anyone. I may just choose not to take their advice.

 

No offence taken by me. I appreciate I have a different approach from others.

 

It's a great forum and I like to see cross fire in the comments, nothing wrong with a bit of healthy debate.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, John Lee said:

Just for the sake of completeness as there have been a couple of references to electric soarers and the 'A' test.

 

The BMFA Achievements scheme offers 'Silent Flight Electric' Certificates at both 'A' and 'B' level. Any Examiner can examine for the 'A' Test and there is no minimum model weight limit.

 

More details here:

 

https://achievements.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Silent-Flight-Electric-Mar-2023.pdf 

 

 

 

It is good that they have eased up the requirement for specialist examiners for the S/F tests, as that made it just too much effort for most candidates to bother with. Even so, I don't think I know anyone who has bothered to take these - glider pilots don't tend to need them in the same way (since they rarely fly in the Sudnay afternoon club environments), and slopers in always prefer to shun anything that looks like authority whenever we can...! 😉😄

Edited June 5, 2023 by MattyB

[John Lee]

That's my experience also Matty.

 

I've conducted no end of FW power tests but despite also being a long term Member of a specialist Soaring Club have never conducted a Silent Flight test. At one point when the new Regulations made it look like an 'A' test might be needed for registration I had half a dozen asking to take an 'A' slope test; but as soon as the RCC became available everyone opted for that!

 

But the Silent Flight Electric/Thermal/Slope Certificates are all available to anyone interested.

[Andy Gates]

Toto,

 

I too applaud your enthusiasm to our hobby / sport.

As I have said before and as Cuban8 has expressed - we are concerned about you burning out too quickly which would be a real shame.

 

I am an instructor at our club and do devote a lot of time to helping new flyers.

I use another modellers ex-crash damaged cast off which is repaired as a club trainer and my own buddy box set up that is tried, tested and reliable.

Each and every pupil is different, in their approach, experience and learning abilities so therefore I have to adapt how I teach to them.

This weekend, 2 pupils on Sunday flying with them back to back for about 3 hours or so.

Both of similar age, one practising on simulator the other not.

Their progress dictated by the amount of stick time and learning abilities.

One copes with full rates, the other on 50% on elevator.

Both are progressing steadily.

One has his own machine which he has tried to fly at another club with another instructor, not too successfully sadly which has dented his confidence.

The other contemplating his model and radio purchase when he is at the stage of doing take offs which is not too far away.

 

So keep going.

Don't get too involved in technicalities.

Listen to YOUR instructor as he will have your best interests at heart.

Don't be tempted to try and shorten your training by trying to fly something else as this will only add confusion as the machines will handle differently.

Keep everything consistent and you will progress quicker.

 

Best of luck

[toto]

Many thanks Andy.

 

I'll get there.

 

Toto

[PatMc]

6 hours ago, MattyB said:

...

 Even so, I don't think I know anyone who has bothered to take these ...

Well you "virtually" know one now, Matty. 😉 I have an A(SFT) as well as the FW certs. Can't remember when I did it but I think it must have been when i was a member of BARCS sometime last century.

 

A bit off topic but there are so many people flying undercart-less models these days it would make sense to include flying from a hand launch (self or by a helper) & safe landing as an option for the certs. There are perfectly sensible techniques to hand launching and belly landings as well as very poor methods - just takes forethought & common sense (& practice).

[leccyflyer]

You certainly used to be able to take a standard FW "A" Test with a hand launched model back in the day, before the minimum weight restriction was brought in.

[Learner]

9 hours ago, PatMc said:

 I have an A(SFT) as well as the FW certs. 

Well good for you!

Perhaps you could start your own thread and leave this for constructive advice on the OP 😘

Edited June 6, 2023 by Learner
Add

[PeterF]

2 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

You certainly used to be able to take a standard FW "A" Test with a hand launched model back in the day, before the minimum weight restriction was brought in.

For light or hand launched models you can take the Basic Proficiency Certificate (BPC) test which is similar to the A test but with hand launch. Our club accepts this for solo flight but you are then limited to light weight hand launch until you pass your A.

[PatMc]

2 hours ago, Learner said:

Well good for you!

Perhaps you could start your own thread and leave this for constructive advice on the OP 😘

My comments follow on from a point made by toto in one of his posts in this thread.

Perhaps you should keep up with the discussion if you intend tit for tat digs. 😉