Slope soaring, an ideal entry into learning to fly RC model aircraft?

[Phil Green]

My Dad started me slope soaring as a 10-year-old, the Sheffield Society of Aeromodellers was then exclusively a slope club.  Primarily S/C in the early days, then through Reeds & on to a Staveley analogue propo. Dad took us all over the country doing all the big aerobatics & pylon racing comps, absolutely loved it, got to know Ken, Chris, Pat...

35 years of sloping later, we moved up to Ponty and I joined PANDAS - this was the first flat-field, powered model club I'd flown with. 

To be honest I found power flying dull, very two-dimensional - repeatedly flying boring clockwise circuits and listening to others moaning about the wind - (what wind?  🙂  )

Scratching on the slope in light conditions is somehow at the same time tense and relaxing, yet teaches you the art of trimming, about air movement, to have a light touch, to work for rewards.   Battling stronger winds teaches instant motor reactions against violet turbulence, about energy retention and changes of glider behaviour & response over a huge range of airspeeds.   

Both teach you to pace yourself, with  patience and determination when climbing to the summit! 🙂

 

Our club field, Ponty racecourse, is superb - we're privileged to have it - but its the same every visit. 

Nont Sarahs, Pule Hill, Baildon Moor, Callow Bank, Filey Brigg - its a different experience every time you venture out.

This might well go against the majority but I think you'd learn more and faster on the slope if you avoid extreme conditions.

Maybe dont look on it as a precursor to boring flat-field flying but as an exciting and rewarding activity in itself !  🙂

 

Cheers

Phil

 

 

Edited February 3 by Phil Green

[leccyflyer]

9 minutes ago, Phil Green said:

 

Our club field, Ponty racecourse, is superb - we're privileged to have it - but its the same every visit. 

Nont Sarahs, Pule Hill, Baildon Moor, Callow Bank, Filey Brigg - its a different experience every time you venture out.

This might well go against the majority but I think you'd learn more and faster on the slope if you avoid extreme conditions.

Maybe dont look on it as a precursor to boring flat-field flying but as an exciting and rewarding hobby in itself !  🙂

 

Cheers

Phil

 

 

Definitely - a totally different style of flying and an exciting and rewarding hobby in itself.

 

BTW Phil - I'm counting on you to make sure that Ponty isn't the same every visit - the wind last year was most definitely a good one for a day on the slope 😮

[Phil Green]

Yes last year was a bit extreme...  but we did fly didnt we!  I recall you were the very first to fly in the spot landing comp, in a wind gusting over 25 you dropped it right onto the spot and left us thinking 'who is this?'  😄

 

[EarlyBird]

3 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

Cool, what would be then please ?

 

Suggestions ?

I still have not worked out what this means.

How did you learn to fly and when?

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, Phil Green said:

Yes last year was a bit extreme...  but we did fly didnt we!  I recall you were the very first to fly in the spot landing comp, in a wind gusting over 25 you dropped it right onto the spot and left us thinking 'who is this?'  😄

 

It was one of the highlights of my modelling year to come down to Ponty - a marvellous weekend with a welcome second to none. Would love to try some of those Yorkshire slopes sometime. It would have to be with a classic design and maybe with the very unfamiliar control layout of the Digimac II 😮 

[toto]

It all sounds great. 

 

I know this debate has been lively from time to time and I even went to the extent of buying a couple of powered gliders as I considered it a possibility. I know I have a slope soaring club in the pentlands hills which is quite easily accessible for me.

 

As Leccyflyer has said..... I eventually dismissed this ( for the time being ) in order to simplify my way forward. Ie ... one tutor, same model type, less of a issue trying to commit time to one way forward etc.

 

Another slight problem for me is .... Rheumatoid Arthritis which would hamper me a bit climbing hills ..... not impossible but it does give me regular grief.

 

I think that once I have mastered the basics of powered flying on the flat, my powered gliders will awake from their hibernated slumber and give me another string to my bow. I maybe even hit the slopes as if I don't ..... I'll never experience this more unique side of flying ..... catching the thermals etc which is a skillset all of its own. I would imagine .... once mastered ...... it must be rewarding and relaxing in equal measures.

 

Feel free to post up some more very inspiring videos please..... 

 

Toto

[John Wagg]

Over 40 years ago since first going up Parlick.

These hills have certainly got a lot steeper since then.

 

[Simon Chaddock]

In my many years of full size gliding I only went slope soaring once to gain the last part of my bronze certificate a 5 hour duration. 5 hours using flat field thermals in club gliders is not easy and gets expensive if you try and fail a few times. The other elements of the certificate were rather easier to achieve flat field thermal gliding.

Soaring over a Scottish hill with no real safe out landing area except back at the airfield was a very different experience particularly flying so apparently low to the ground!

 

Soaring does require rather a different set of skills and in some respects more discipline too but boring it is not - even after 5 hours going back and forth over the same bit of hill.

I expect I am biased but as far as learning about wind and turbulence effects there is nothing quite like flying light powered RC planes especially those that glide passably well just in case there are any thermals about.😉

Edited February 3 by Simon Chaddock

[leccyflyer]

The hills getting steeper as we grow older is definitely something of an issue. I mentioned the compass rose with the different slopes and a quite a few years ago, the club did used to use a lot more hills, but, as the membership got a little older and a little less mobile, that list shrunk to just the few slopes which were the more accessible ones, with less climbing involved. However, the club does have some new blood and in the past couple of years, these younger members hve been reeiscovering some of the slopes which used to be used regularly by the club. Now, forestation can also rob previously excellent slopes and has has occurred, but whilst the club was well supplied with slopes for NW, SE and S winds, some of the SW and W slopes have started to be used again, which is good to see.

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

@toto you don't need a hill to catch thermals.... once you're competent with your trainer, try one of your powered gliders at your normal site

 

Power on

Launch

Climb to height

Turn off motor

Travel around looking to keep it aloft as long as possible (or you can manage)

Land

Repeat until batteries are depleted

 

The ideal way to learn to fly is to pick a dicipline, have a good location, have the correct model, have a good instructor, have patience and tenacity.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Years ago when my son was learning to fly, he would get a bit despondent when his landing attempt damaged the IC trainer we had curtailing flying for the day. Bought a Wildthing and went off the local slope, once he realised it was very difficult to damage he gained confidence really quickly. I've still got the Wildthing some 20 years later, and let relative newbies fly it.

 

The great thing about slope soaring is that it does teach you that elevator controls speed.

[Phil Green]

3 hours ago, toto said:

once I have mastered the basics of powered flying on the flat, my powered gliders will awake from their hibernated slumber and give me another string to my bow. I maybe even hit the slopes as if I don't .....

 

Be aware though that on many slopes motors are strictly not allowed, not even if unused, props removed  or taped-up.

Best to ask at the sloping club before risking the loss of their site.  And anyway, you dont need one! 

 

59 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

Bought a Wildthing and went off the local slope, once he realised it was very difficult to damage he gained confidence really quickly. I've still got the Wildthing some 20 years later, and let relative newbies fly it.

 

I have a 'spare' Wildthing (of three!) that I keep for that very purpose, to let others fly it, I even have 2 trannies for it, mode 1 and 2 !

Last time we were at Nonts it was gusting  a measured 50mph, hard to stand up and really difficult to launch.  We had a mid-air and my Wildthing (another one)  recovered downwind and hit the rock face at (50mph + flying speed).  Damage was the fin, one elevon and little bit of re-taping 🙂

 

Hats off to Alan Head of SAS  😃

 

 

Edited February 3 by Phil Green

[2.4g Shaun]

Wildthing's are available again from Balsa Cabin. They have been working with Alan Head to get them back into production. Not the prettiest slope soarer ( they were originally  designed for slope combat I believe ) but epically good in flight and extremely crash resistant. 

Every slope fan should have one. Great for getting  used to new slopes or flying in testing conditions. As mentioned they survive hitting the slope with minimal damage that would re-kit most models.

Edited February 3 by 2.4g Shaun

[Piers Bowlan]

I don’t know about the best way to start in this hobby but slope soaring was how I did it many years ago and am hooked on it to this day.

[leccyflyer]

13 hours ago, 2.4g Shaun said:

Wildthing's are available again from Balsa Cabin. They have been working with Alan Head to get them back into production. Not the prettiest slope soarer ( they were originally  designed for slope combat I believe ) but epically good in flight and extremely crash resistant. 

Every slope fan should have one. Great for getting  used to new slopes or flying in testing conditions. As mentioned they survive hitting the slope with minimal damage that would re-kit most models.

The Wildthing looks like a superb hardy annual for the slope. I've just recently refurbished a Phoenix  Model Products Wanabee to join my PMP Hawk and DAW Messerschmitt 109 as indestructible EPP soarers - bounceability is a great quality for a slope soarer to have. My flying pal Terry is sadly unable to go on the slopes these days and has passed on another PMP model - the Tucano, which is a model I've had the pleasure of flying with on several occasions, popping up on my keyfob camera that I sometimes stick on a model.

[Jolly Roger]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread, but

I can’t say which is the best way to start flying RC aircraft. I guess it depends whether the RC aircraft you want to fly are powered or slope soarers.

 

I flew RC slope for 25 years before trying powered off a field, and found the main challenges were 1. Learning rudder control on take off, 2. Using throttle not elevator to control height, and 3. Getting used to flights ending after 10-15mins 😆.

I love both power and slope and find them really complementary.  If the forecast says 10mph+ I walk up the hill. Anything less and I head for the field. Happy times 🙂

[Simon Burch 1]

On 03/02/2024 at 10:15, Rich Griff said:

Cool, what would be then please ?

 

Suggestions ?

 

I'll stick my neck out here and suggest that the easiest (if perhaps not the best) way into RC might be to use a good PC-based RC simulator, and a flat-field foamie electric glider (eg Radian or similar).

 

In my experience, the two main reasons for an 'early finish' to a flying training session are undercarriage damage and prop damage.  With no undercarriage and a folding prop, an electric glider is less vulnerable to these issues. Types with over-wing mounted pusher props are even better in this respect; in this configuration, the motor and prop are well protected.  Foam construction seems to be more forgiving when it comes to the inevitable mishaps, and field repairs are, I think, easier.

 

With gliders, things tend to happen a little more slowly than they do with a standard 4-channel trainer; this gives the flyer more time to think and react.  As he or she gains experience, a glider also offers the chance of extended flights.

 

Properly used, an RC sim should enable the beginner to get the hang of the controls and, perhaps most importantly, left/right orientation before taking to the air. 

 

I hasten to add that I didn’t learn to fly like this......I'm from the old-fashioned build-fly-crash-rebuild-repeat school.  I don't recommend that.

[Arthur Harris]

1 hour ago, Simon Burch 1 said:

 

I'll stick my neck out here and suggest that the easiest (if perhaps not the best) way into RC might be to use a good PC-based RC simulator, and a flat-field foamie electric glider (eg Radian or similar).

 

In my experience, the two main reasons for an 'early finish' to a flying training session are undercarriage damage and prop damage.  With no undercarriage and a folding prop, an electric glider is less vulnerable to these issues. Types with over-wing mounted pusher props are even better in this respect; in this configuration, the motor and prop are well protected.  Foam construction seems to be more forgiving when it comes to the inevitable mishaps, and field repairs are, I think, easier.

 

With gliders, things tend to happen a little more slowly than they do with a standard 4-channel trainer; this gives the flyer more time to think and react.  As he or she gains experience, a glider also offers the chance of extended flights.

 

Properly used, an RC sim should enable the beginner to get the hang of the controls and, perhaps most importantly, left/right orientation before taking to the air. 

 

I hasten to add that I didn’t learn to fly like this......I'm from the old-fashioned build-fly-crash-rebuild-repeat school.  I don't recommend that.

I am so old that I reckon that old-timer free flight designs can be trainers for solo learners. They were built to fly without RC, so all the learner has to do is nudge them in the right direction. 

[Simon Chaddock]

I agree Arthur but there is one caveat. The old free flight types were designed to be really stable and were modestly powered  Add a modern LiPo/brushless and it is all to easy to over power them. They then become very sensitive to the application of excess throttle which will result in a rapid un commanded climb and possibly a stall. A novice pilot can then enter a form of pilot induced oscillation, PIO, but from rapid throttle movements rather than the elevator.

Use just enough throttle to maintain height and the plane will then perform as originally intended. It can then be safely 'nudged' around the sky.

[GrumpyGnome]

8 hours ago, Simon Burch 1 said:

 

I'll stick my neck out here and suggest that the easiest (if perhaps not the best) way into RC might be to use a good PC-based RC simulator, and a flat-field foamie electric glider (eg Radian or similar).

 

In my experience, the two main reasons for an 'early finish' to a flying training session are undercarriage damage and prop damage.  With no undercarriage and a folding prop, an electric glider is less vulnerable to these issues. Types with over-wing mounted pusher props are even better in this respect; in this configuration, the motor and prop are well protected.  Foam construction seems to be more forgiving when it comes to the inevitable mishaps, and field repairs are, I think, easier.

 

With gliders, things tend to happen a little more slowly than they do with a standard 4-channel trainer; this gives the flyer more time to think and react.  As he or she gains experience, a glider also offers the chance of extended flights.

 

Properly used, an RC sim should enable the beginner to get the hang of the controls and, perhaps most importantly, left/right orientation before taking to the air. 

 

I hasten to add that I didn’t learn to fly like this......I'm from the old-fashioned build-fly-crash-rebuild-repeat school.  I don't recommend that.

I think you're probably right if 'going it alone'. With a decent instructor, there us no reason for props and undercarriages to be regularly broken.

[GrumpyGnome]

7 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

I am so old that I reckon that old-timer free flight designs can be trainers for solo learners. They were built to fly without RC, so all the learner has to do is nudge them in the right direction. 

The other caveats are:

 

They were not designed for the added weight of radio gear (even modern gear is probably a significant proportion of their weight)

They were not designed for the stresses a ham-fisted learner is likely to impose - learners typically do not 'nudge' in my experience, they over-control.

 

[PDB]

8 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

I am so old that I reckon that old-timer free flight designs can be trainers for solo learners. They were built to fly without RC, so all the learner has to do is nudge them in the right direction. 

That type of flying could get boring quite quickly and noting the unsettled UK weather that type of model would be grounded when a 40 sized trainer would be flying without issue.

[Arthur Harris]

7 hours ago, Simon Chaddock said:

I agree Arthur but there is one caveat. The old free flight types were designed to be really stable and were modestly powered  Add a modern LiPo/brushless and it is all to easy to over power them. They then become very sensitive to the application of excess throttle which will result in a rapid un commanded climb and possibly a stall. A novice pilot can then enter a form of pilot induced oscillation, PIO, but from rapid throttle movements rather than the elevator.

Use just enough throttle to maintain height and the plane will then perform as originally intended. It can then be safely 'nudged' around the sky.

I was reading about the early days of RC, when someone was quoted asking at a demonstration: "is that plane radio controlled or just inherently unstable?" Made me chuckle.

[Simon Burch 1]

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I think you're probably right if 'going it alone'. With a decent instructor, there us no reason for props and undercarriages to be regularly broken.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating 'going it alone'.  At best, that's a recipe for frustration; at worst, it's dangerous. 

 

However, in my experience beginners who fly a powered glider, rather than a standard 4-channel powered trainer, usually progress more rapidly to the point where they can practise safely without an instructor. 

 

This can be particularly important if the club doesn't have many instructors.  Certainly, despite our best efforts, my club has a chronic shortage of instructors, and this is frustrating for beginners who want to fly at a time of their choice.

 

It's during this 'solo' practise phase that the minor mishaps I mentioned are most likely to occur.

Edited February 5 by Simon Burch 1
Punctuation

[MattyB]

On 03/02/2024 at 13:29, EarlyBird said:

I still have not worked out what this means.

How did you learn to fly and when?

 

He doesn't answer questions EarlyBird, only poses them - normally in ways that are near impossible to understand... 😉