Rocker Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Any legal minds out there can help with a bit of a concern in our club We fly of an old World War 2 Airfield. We share it with a go kart club who race at the other end of the Airfield At the moment the committee have inforced a no fly policy on the days the karts are racing has a safety measure Now the members of the club want overrule the committee and fly on the days the karts race.I think this madness .If a model was for any reason was to lose control and hit either a marshal or god forbid an actual kart while it was racing and cause a serious accident and the kart club was to take legal action against the model flying club .Would the committee members be liable and face criminal action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 If you are a BMFA affiliated club, ask them - get it from the horses mouth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Stephenson Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 The club constitution should use words to the effect that legal liability is vested in the club membership as a whole, rather than making the committee take sole responsibility. All members must sign to abide by the constitution. I have seen rules to this effect in clubs concerning activities other than model flying. Lawyers, please feel free to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 I guess you can get into all sorts of legal knots about many issues regarding how a club can and cannot operate. As GG says your best point of call is the BMFA. For what it's worth, if your club committee has imposed a no fly day or days rule (my club does something similar because we share the field with other users from time to time) then your members are dutybound to follow those instructions, I'd have thought. Clearly a safety related issue that needs to be looked into fully, maybe after further consideration there is no safety problem and things can carry on as is. For the time being, members who defy the club's directive are IMHO in serious breach of club discipline. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) I can't imagine any qualified lawyer will give advice on a public forum.... Edited April 16 by GrumpyGnome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 https://www.accountancywales.com/social-clubs/faqs/constitutional/unincorporated-associations-liability-of-members-officers-and-trustees/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) The existing rules and regs regarding model flying and public gatherings, sporting events etc are readily available so the need for lawyers etc shouldn't be needed. Likewise, dealing with club members who don't follow the directions of their committee can be dealt with under that club's existing rules. Equally, if a committee is felt by members to be exceeding its authority, then club democracy can be called upon to put the matter right. Edited April 16 by Cuban8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottenRow Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 It is each flier’s responsibility to ensure that he or she flies safely. In the scenario presented, it would probably be the flier whose model was involved in the incident who would be liable, not the club itself, though it wouldn’t bode well for the continued existence of the club at that location. If your club is BMFA affiliated (and keeps that affiliation up to date annually) then the BMFA insurance indemnified the club’s committee members against any claim. Regarding the dual use of the airfield, whether both model flying and kart racing can operate simultaneously would depend on the proximity of each activity. The BMFA should be able to provide advice on all aspects of this. Brian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 The basic regs for separation distances between model flying and uninvolved persons is a good starting point and can be found in section 8 of the BMFA guide to article 16. I guess that individual circumstances will dictate whether following separation distances will be enough to ensure as safe an operation as possibe, and further risk assessments may be needed. Again, BMFA are expert in this sort of stuff and will tailor their response to individual situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 Taken all your advice and now contacted the BMFA about this . Waiting on the BMFA reply 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) Excellent. We obviously don't know your individual club's layout at the airfield, but the chances are you'll be able to carry on without a problem, maybe with some tweaking to how you operate such as extra no fly-zones when the carts are there. If you have to lose a day's flying now and then, it's not ideal but not the end of the world. My club loses a dozen or so weekends throughout the year because 'our' field is used by vehicle clubs, rough shooters etc with the permission of the land owner of course. We also had a model car club operating over the very far side of the field but we simply have their area as a no fly zone. It's never been a problem. Good luck and do keep us all informed of how you get on. Edited April 16 by Cuban8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 It is the pilot's responsibility to ensure any flight can be undertaken safely. If it all goes wrong, the individual pilot will in the spotlight. However, if there is a serious accident, it won't do the entire club any favours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 Yep due to a few selfish members who just want fly regardless. We could end up with no flying field 😩 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 3 minutes ago, Brian Cooper said: It is the pilot's responsibility to ensure any flight can be undertaken safely. If it all goes wrong, the individual pilot will in the spotlight. However, if there is a serious accident, it won't do the entire club any favours. That is 100% correct, Brian. However, that responsibilty ensures that an individual flight within the confines of the 'safe environment' of a club site can be carried out without undue risk of an incident - I'm thinking in terms of equipment failure, personal fitness to fly, unairworthy airframe or inappropriate weather conditions etc. If that 'safe club environment' doesn't exist in the first place then all bets are off before we start. Lone flyers operating from a bit of openly accessible rough ground or parkland have to consider risks to uninvolved third parties every time they fly along with everything else. Common sense plays a big part along with the rule book of course. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 If flying on kart days presents a danger to the karters, worrying who carrys the can if it goes pear shaped is secondary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 True John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 I suppose it also depends on how far apart the activities are. If it's a full size airfield then there could be a mile separation. That's probably further away than many non-related people are for many clubs as a norm. When RR club flew from the Hucknall airfield (which was actually more of an airstrip with just one long runway), the RR facility was a lot less than a mile away, for instance, as was the Merlin full-size flying club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 (edited) Unfortunately when we take off or land we have to fly very if not over the kart track.To me it is ridiculous to fly.So I have made a personal choice not to fly when the karts are racing..Think I will just come off the committee and let them get on with it .That way I know I know I am safe .If we still have a flying field this time next year is now down to the members who want to fly when the karts are racing.!!!!!! Edited April 16 by Rocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Collinson Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Pending BMFA response and subject to what your constitution says, I think you will find that the properly elected officers are responsible. BTC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Is it not the "pilot" of an RC plane (UAV) who is responsible for its safe operation? For most clubs the CAA recognise it is unlikely a club could meet the full responsibilities as the "operator". From the CAA Introduction to drone flying and the UK rules. "Since the legal identity of the operator must be clear, organisations or clubs without a formal legal status are unlikely to be able to meet the operator requirements." If this is the case it follows that the legal responsibility for a flight lies with the UAV pilot unless he is a minor in which case the responsibility is the registered "operator" of the UAV. It will be interesting to see what is the BMFA view. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin b Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 8 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said: I can't imagine any qualified lawyer will give advice on a public forum.... Not for free anyway ! 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 And not without pages of caveats and CYA sentences...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin b Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Personally I think that if the site is officially "shared", then the two club's committees need to sort it out and not individual members. If it all turns nasty I know who is going to lose access to the site. There are more youngsters involved with go karting than model aeroplanes. I've never met a grumpy old go-karter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 We will lose The Kart Club have said if we fly over the race track while they are racing. They will contact the farmer who owns our field and the farmer has already said if that happens .We are history .So these selfish members are going to lose us the field .It is a no win situation for the committee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 If it's an event being undertaken by uninvolved persons then there should be no overflying of that event. If there is a risk of losing your field due to some members wanting to overfly the go-kart track then the club needs to do something about those members, preventing them from overflying the event. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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