Project mancave

[Ron Gray]

Don’t use felt on the roof, use EPDM instead.

[Basil]

18 hours ago, toto said:

Thanks for that Learner. 

 

I will only be plasterboarding inside the actual cabinet itself as I don't want the whole shed plasterboarded. I'd prefer Ply lining as it takes more a use and " remodelling " in terms of screwing things too.

 

Plasterboard gets a bit messed up after a while and doesn't take the same weight loadings as play. ( in my opinion anyway ) 

 

I'll work out the best location inside the shed and ensure that the cabinet is vented through an outside wall to clear space.

 

Toto 

Instead of ply I would suggest that you cost out OSB as a lining , It takes most fixings, cheaper than ply. comes in various thicknes

ses .It's versatile.Bas

Edited September 3 by Basil

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

18 hours ago, Chris Walby said:

IMO, there are only two scenarios to consider

1. You are in the mancave and somehow you cause the fire. You need to have a clear and unobstructed exit (ultimately property can be replaced, you can't). personally I don't like the idea of blocking your exit with charging lipos. I would go for a 4 or 6kg powder, lets face it if its on fire, time is of the essence and secondary damage is inconsequential. In a relatively enclosed space like the mancave you will be deploying the extinguisher while exiting the shed due to the cloud of powder you will be making.

A lesson learnt during fire training at work was to use any extinguisher from outside the area of the fire.  Any form of stored pressure extinguisher may actually spread a fire if loose items are involved.  Standing instructions were to use a maximum (and then only if it was considered safe to do so) of one extinguisher and evacuate if this was unsuccessful in putting the fire out.

 

My only "live" fire fighting experience during modelling activity was a flight box fire - very dangerous with clear burning methanol involved - which a fire blanket dealt with quite efficiently.  It's worth having one available in the shed...might even provide a barrier to a LiPo fire spreading?

[Bruce Collinson]

9 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

Don’t use felt on the roof, use EPDM instead.

Ron, are we happy with EPDM on a "pent" roof, which I interpret as a monopitch?   I know mineral felt will adhere adequately to most timber-based deckings at a fair pitch but am not certain EPDM will and would be circumspect about its propensity to creep and then fracture.   I associate these systems with the very shallow pitches, 1:25, commonly referred to as "flat roofs".

 

BTC

[Ron Gray]

You can apply EPDM with an adhesive if you are concerned about creep. But I have it on 4 of my sheds and also on a summer house which has a pitched roof of approx 30°, no adhesive, no creep, no fractures (it doesn’t go hard like roofing felt does). It is rather more expensive but imo worth every penny.

[toto]

EPDM ..... ? 

 

I have heard the term ...... I will go and investigate. A rubber type roof was an option as supplied but Noah's will not install in Scotland .... only deliver and I suspect any roof I get ..... A) will come in more than one part due to its size and B) will require the final covering to be applied by me ( the builder  ....... ahem ....... or assembler ).

 

So ....I thought ..... go with felt. 

 

Toto

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

A good felt shouldn't be a problem, mines over 25 years and good as new.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Did I miss out, or you won't be heating it ?

 

You won't be called Toto two sheds anymore.

[toto]

No heating. Same script as before ..... small 2kv electric heater to take the chill off in winter then switch it off and huddle around a fag.

 

Toto

 

[Bruce Collinson]

Have you read the extensive threads about diesel heaters?

[toto]

Nahhhhhh.

 

Don't want to be storing any more ( and further ) types of flammable/ obnoxious substances.

 

Glow fuel, lipo batteries, camping gas canisters, white spirit, various fluxes potentially petrol for rc petrol engines and others, it goes on and on. My shed has all the explosive qualities of an ordinance factory already. I can just sleep at night as it is. However thanks for the idea regardlessly.

 

Toto

Edited September 8 by Martin Harris - Moderator
Language Timothy...

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

12 hours ago, Bruce Collinson said:

Have you read the extensive threads about diesel heaters?

Maybe an underfloor electric heating.

[Ariel]

You could try running a De-Humidifier permanently on. Years ago I was working on the restoration of a Cinq Port Schooner during a very cold winter. We ran a De-Humidifier in the 'Tool Room' to stop all our kit rusting overnight. It was astonishing how much warmer it felt stepping in from the Hold. Promptly became the Tea Room. Will do wonderful things for keeping your models, tools and materials dry too. Also cheap to run and no exposed heating elements or flames.

[Bruce Collinson]

A great sticking plaster for an environment which is imbalanced but not a substitute for a properly insulated, adequately heated and VENTILATED environment.   See my caustic (but accurate) post above.

 

The OP has an ideal opportunity to specify all three parameters which ought to minimise, if not eliminate, condensation.

BTC

[leccyflyer]

Good point Bruce - in starting with essentially a blank slate it puts Toto in the ideal position to arrive at a properly specified workshop environment, which will incur the lowest possible energy costs for an optimal working environment - hence my earlier comment about ensuring the maximum insulation level that it is possible to achieve in a workable space. With that sorted and adequate ventilation, it will help create the perfect environment to store and use one's models, tools and equipment for minimal energy costs. I was somewhat sceptical about the huge benefits of well specified insulation but it really does work - much better than putting huge amounts of unnecessary heat into the structure to have it float away, or to be constantly running a dehumidifier to take away condensation, where it isn't necessary to have designed in that failure in the environment. Being in Scotland, if Toto wants to make use of his workshop in winter, in the manner that he's been using it previously - mostly in the evening - deserves proper planning to achieve a nice working environment.

[Ariel]

My point was that it 'feels' warmer when the air is dry. I was thinking about his comfort. 

[leccyflyer]

Agreed - in fact if you have an existing shed that is damp due to condensation a dehumidifier is a good idea. The amount of water that one drags out of the atmosphere is impressive.  Damp does a lot more damage to modelling equipment than cold does, so keeping things dry is paramount. I think in this case that Toto would be best to start off with that basic premise in mind in specifying his shed/workshop/storage.

[toto]

here are a couple or three sketches of the specification for the new shed.

 

I cant seem to upload the link from noah garden buildings but the model is the dartford for anyone interested to look.

 

first of the sketches, I used highlighters to try and use colour to show the different elements.

 

First up is the floor section ....

 

 

this comprises the base layer .... patio slabs with further slab supports sitting at each corner and every so far along its length and width.

 

A subbase of 3 x 2 timbers with a 100mm DPC covering the top of the subbase and then the 3x2 shed floor joist sit on top of that. this way, if water permeats the timber sub base, it will not get through to the main floor timbers.

 

between the 3 x 2 shed floor joists and the 22mm t and G floor is a layer of multifoil insulation which is rated to give the equivalent of 55mm of polystyrene foam insulation.

 

 

moving onto the roof

 

 

the roof is made up of mineral felt on top of 16mm T & G roof boards  with a layer of multifoil insulation sandwiched between the t and G boards and the 3 x 2 timber roof joists. the underside ( inside ) of the roof will be finished with a 9mm ply lining.

 

onto the walls ....

 

 

the walls are made of 38mm loglap cladding with a moisture proof membrane sandwiched between the cladding and the 3 x 2 framework.

 

there will be a layer of 25mm celutex  or similar insulation board fitted flush with the inside edge of the 3 x 2 internal wall which will be lined out with 9mm ply.

 

i will be providing the 25mm celutex and all internal 9mm ply lining boards.

 

 

apologies for the wonky sketches. had them looking correct but could not get them to save.

 

I'll be fitting LED batton fittings for lights, twin 13amp sockets with built in charging points and probably an extractor fan.

 

i will have to fit some kind of vents to ventilate the shed since the roof, floor and walls will all be insulated. vents will be required in order to let the building breath and prevent condensation.

 

I can either fit a couple every so often around the wall structures or in the floor. i am favouring the floor at the moment. I know for sure that ventilation is a must from lessons learned from my previous / current shed. It seem a bit counterintuitive to insulate a shed to keep heat in only to lose some of it through vents but it is an absolute must otherwise ....... condensation, mould and dampness await.

 

that me for now. if I manage to put a link up ( the dartford ) I will.

 

more information and photo's as it happens.

 

the next task is demolishing the first of 2 sheds to make space for the above ....... thats this weekends task.

 

cheers

 

toto   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[toto]

So .... a bit more on ventilation......

 

I'm thinking of metal vents on the floor surface. Approximately 8 or 10 inches x approximately 4 inches. Probably 4. One on each side of the shed internally. About 4 inches in from the wall edge.

 

I don't want to fit them to the wall as the outside cladding is profiled and it would mean breaching the walls vapour barrier.

 

I would much rather breach the underfloor foil insulation barrier instead. Just my preference.

 

I will need to breach the walls vapour barrier in one location in order to exit through the wall for the extractor fan but that's it. I'll be as neat as possible and tape up the vapour barrier around the 6 inch ducting going from the inside to the outside.

 

That's the plan for now.

 

Toto

[Ron Gray]

Your DPC needs to go under your 3x2 'sub-base' floor joist support structure.

 

You should really be venting the air space within the walls and ceiling to prevent interstitial condensation.

[Learner]

Its a shed, build it and put stuff in it! 

Or even more sensible stick to the two you've got and sell the stuff you can't fit!!

 

 

 

 

[toto]

Hi Ron,

 

What's the difference in the condensation types ? I've never heard that term before. To me it was just general condensation caused by the inability of moisture to escape.

 

Toto

[Ron Gray]

Interstitial condensation usually occurs between the layers or skins of a building where warm, moist air from the inside, meets a colder surface, usually the inner surface of the outer skin, and condenses. A good example is where a double glazed unit has failed and condensation can be seen inside it. A water vapour barrier to prevent moisture passing through will help stop it and using OSB instead of ply for your inside lining would also be better as it is a better vapour barrier. 

[Learner]

Maybe worth looking at intelligent vcl.

[Ron Gray]

A VCL (Vapour control layer) works a bit like Gortex and whilst excellent they tend to be quite expensive. A taped polythene sheet would be a very good vapour barrier especially when combined with OSB and although it isn't breathable in this shed scenario it would be fine. Irrespective of an intelligent VCL or a poly vapour barrier special care is needed when forming openings and attaching fixings, a right pain in the butt but necessary.