payneib Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 25 minutes ago, Richard Acland said: I would like to go and visit other clubs in my area. The only problem is the first question is always "have you got an A cert". When my answer is no, but I have been building and flying RC aircraft for 40 odd years and am the secretary of my club. The reply is sorry but that is our rule. So I stay and fly at my club where everyone is welcome regardless.7 It'll take you about 25 minutes to solve that problem forever. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 Moving up to Ponty from the Sheffield club after 30 (?) years not needing (or even considering) an 'A', I was taken aback that I wasnt allowed to fly at my new club. For several months, trying to get examiners, weather, and time off to coincide proved impossible, it was driving me nuts so I went to Colin Chapman, 'A' sorted in one pleasant afternoon. It costs, of course, but for me it was the only way forward and ultimately well worthwhile 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Gray Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 2 hours ago, Richard Acland said: I would like to go and visit other clubs in my area. The only problem is the first question is always "have you got an A cert". When my answer is no, but I have been building and flying RC aircraft for 40 odd years and am the secretary of my club. The reply is sorry but that is our rule. So I stay and fly at my club where everyone is welcome regardless.7 Both of the clubs I belong to allow visitors, we ask if they have an A and if not then it's no problem as one of our members would stand with them. It's not a problem and is beneficial as site peculiarities can be pointed out plus on one of the sites it's a requirement to have a spotter as it's a live full size strip too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 We don't require you have an A cert either, but if I was interested in visiting other clubs that do and had no A, I would get one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Acland Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 2 hours ago, payneib said: It'll take you about 25 minutes to solve that problem forever. Yes I know that but I have a problem, the problem is that the Achievement scheme was meant to voluntary. I would be quite willing to go and fly in front of their club members and let them decide if I am safe to fly now, not as I was when I took an A 20 odd years ago.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 8 minutes ago, Richard Acland said: Yes I know that but I have a problem, the problem is that the Achievement scheme was meant to voluntary. I would be quite willing to go and fly in front of their club members and let them decide if I am safe to fly now, not as I was when I took an A 20 odd years ago.. And clubs are free to set their own rules, also the A doesn't mean you don't have to demonstrate safe flying, each and everytime you fly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 8 minutes ago, Richard Acland said: Yes I know that but I have a problem, the problem is that the Achievement scheme was meant to voluntary. I would be quite willing to go and fly in front of their club members and let them decide if I am safe to fly now, not as I was when I took an A 20 odd years ago.. Are yiu saying that you have taken an A Test 20 odd years ago? AFAIK the test, once passed, grants a certificate for one's own personal gratification. Wouldn't you just tell the club that you are visiting that you have an "A" Cerificate? If you've lost the certificate the BMFA should be able to verify your previous status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 18, 2024 Share Posted October 18, 2024 I’m with Ron on this. Yes, we have a club rule that requires members to have an A before flying unsupervised, but most of our experienced members would be only too happy to stand on the flightline with a visitor. Leccy - I think Richard was referring to a hypothetical visitor with a rather dog eared A cert. While an A is an indication that someone has reached a certain standard of competence and awareness at some point, it’s normal practice for a member to stand with any unknown pilot for at least their first flight - primarily to reinforce their understanding of our no fly zones and communication protocols but also to confirm that their flying standards match their certification. None of this should come over as officious or overbearing - it’s just a courtesy to the members of the club, some of whom may have invested a lot of time into achieving their A certificate, and would be conducted in as low key and friendly manner as possible. And finally, although admittedly not the case at all clubs, but certainly at ours, it’s highly likely that an A test could be arranged for you if you wanted to simplify future trips to any clubs you fancied visiting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 We recently visited a club based near Bembridge on the Isle of Wight. I gave them a call before we went to the Island and they were very welcoming. It was a perfect summers day when I arrived, and after having a brief gossip with the members, I asked if I could have a flight. Due to room constraints, I only had my Flite Test F22 which is a bit of a missile but one of my "Go To" models. I was more than happy to be accompanied onto the field despite having a "B" cert (which I was asked to bring),for many years etc etc. After one flight my chaperone said "You are fine", and I was left to my own devices for the rest of my visit. Its their club, and their rules, I cannot see any problem with any of the above. Great bunch of blokes and brilliant visit!. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 I just took Richard's statement at face value Martin. I recall the big job that we had back at the turn of the century persuading our club members that the "A" test was the way forward to help improve safe flying at our new site. Many of them had been flying for decades with hard won self taught spurs and there was some resistance, which was a little difficult to understand since the club already had it's own general flying test, which learners were required to have passed before being allowed to fly solo. I guess it was just that the old guard didn't feel it applied to them, however they saw sense and to a man they easily passed the "A" test in the required time span of one year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 Royal Yachting Association, ‘send us a fool for training, we return a trained fool’. Member of my club, has a French B equivalent. ( by the way I am pretty easy going, live let live sort). When his motor starts, I stop doing anything and watch. Sometimes entertaining, but sometimes, being in flight or fight mode, gives an edge. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Don Fry said: Royal Yachting Association, ‘send us a fool for training, we return a trained fool’. Member of my club, has a French B equivalent. ( by the way I am pretty easy going, live let live sort). When his motor starts, I stop doing anything and watch. Sometimes entertaining, but sometimes, being in flight or fight mode, gives an edge. I also hold the French QPDD, the equivalent of the BMFA's B Certificate. In my view it's easier to get the QPDD than the BMFA's B Cerificate, however, their equivalent of the A Certificate, the Brevet A, is more involved than an A Certificate requiring you to loop and roll amongst other things. Incidentally, regular respondents to this forum will know that I compete every year in La Coupe Des Barons, a simple competition for an iconic French three-channel trainer. About seventy pilots turn up from all over France with a couple driving over the border from Germany and Swizerland. The standard of flying ranges from the expert to the downright dangerous. In 2022 I saw several Barons fly over the crowd and I watched a beautifully built Baron fly off down wind in a series of uncontrolled stalls. Someone should have told him about the getting the centre of gravity in the correct position! No wonder most of the entry gets trashed! Edited October 19, 2024 by David Davis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 Your 'Coupe des Barons' looks brilliant David! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 Yes you may see my entry, no 247 at 0.38 seconds, silver with British roundels. I didn't do so well in 23. I crashed out in the first round owing to radio failure, pilot error or a combination of the two! The weather was awful that year too. It was even worse this year so the event was cancelled a few days beforehand because of an inclement weather forecast. My favourite video is of the 2017 event which shows all of the flying rounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYlLvJC-MuE I did not participate until 2019. My record so far: 2019 circlip on the electric motor failed after two rounds. 2020 event cancelled due to Covid 19. 2021 I won the fourstroke class! 2022 I had to "abandone" as Miss Blue Eyes felt unwell in the heat. 2023 crashed out in the first round. Finished second to last. 2024 event cancelled. I am looking forward to the 2025 event. I have become well-known as a fourstroke competitor and have bought a Laser 50 with a view to competing with a Baron in British markings powered by a British engine! However, the Laser is much heavier than an OS52 or OS clone so I'll probably run one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 @flying daddy I think you should be applauded for starting this thread! The discussion has been everywhere, except which brand is the best radio, 👌 Hope you're feeling better now and good luck with the knee 😊 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 (edited) In a larger, well organised multi-discipline clubs, asking members to achieve an 'A' certificate for solo operation is hardly asking a lot. Why would anyone be resistant to putting in a bit of work to pass what is TBH a very simple set of tasks, especially if it broadens their horizon as to where they fly? OK, a few mates flying off a bit of rough ground now and again as the fancy takes them is quite a different proposition - although being insured, flying safely and legally is still paramount. Came across this the other day.....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33vk8yrz1eo A very similar set of problems to our own. Edited October 19, 2024 by Cuban8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 19, 2024 Share Posted October 19, 2024 Couple of interesting articles in Novembers BMFA News. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airmonkey Posted October 20, 2024 Share Posted October 20, 2024 On 15/10/2024 at 16:17, Phil Green said: This is a recurrent & depressing topic but one observation I've made over & over is how many are totally fixated one one small sub-genre of R/C, never straying outside their niche. We see it at our club - flyers who will only fly jets - "anything else is a toy" - others who will only fly big petrol 3D models, wouldnt be seen dead with an 'ordinary' model. Some who will fly nothing but scale - "your Wot4 isnt a real aeroplane". And "gliders? Pfft. No engine?" - and so on. Terry's novelty models are amazing, Dumbo the flying elephant, the Witch on her broomstick, Superman, etc but try as he might he cannot get anyone to even try a novelty model. How many here have flown a model rocket? When did you last fly C/L? Its frequently electric now!!! Drones. Yes, they've caused us some difficulties, but they're here to stay and flying one 'for real' really helps develop orientation skills. This self-imposed tunnel-vision is an unfortunate limitation - although its a minority hobby, there are a gazillion avenues to explore. At least a gazillion, maybe more 🙂 Locally across several clubs in the area we've coaxed a lot more into our slope soaring group, including many first-timers - all loving it. The Retro R/C scene shows no sign of slowing - the completeness of flying a 1970s model with a Merco and a Skyleader radio is unbeatable! 🙂 R/C-oriented homebrew electronics is also on the up, it doesnt have to be complicated to be satisfying, and its so easy to share now. And of course our roots - single-channel and Reeds. More than anything, all this is brain food, you never stop learning. Maybe we have too much choice, maybe the options are bewildering - but trying something different to your regular Sunday hack really can be an eye-opener, and ultimately, maybe expand the hobby! 🙂 [/2p] Cheers Phil Totally agree. I only fly helicopters now, so already a niche within a niche, yet even within that it's divided - scale vs pod & boom, sport vs 3D, flybar vs FBL etc.. and the prevailing attitude is never the twain shall meet, it's a shame. I'm 59 but because I only took up flying helis 3 years ago my gear is quite modern, and because I've put a lot of work in I'm not too shabby at flying but I didn't get applauded for it I got resented & accused of cheating. I love flying helis but not the attitude of maybe 80% of my club, they need to chill out, learn about stuff & try to remember it's a hobby. No wonder people stay indoors rather than take up r/c. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMON CRAGG Posted October 20, 2024 Share Posted October 20, 2024 Cheating at what?......... Why resented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airmonkey Posted October 20, 2024 Share Posted October 20, 2024 11 minutes ago, SIMON CRAGG said: Cheating at what?......... Why resented? Well, as daft as it seems, it was decided that I hadn't been flying long enough to hover inverted nose-in so I must be using some kind of flip switch - I had to have the guy stand with me & witness my stick movements before I was 'cleared' as telling the truth. I'm resented by those who have owned helis for tens of years yet don't do much with them. But like anything, you get out what you put in & I've put countless hundreds of flights in.. But my point was that rather than separating into gangs & sniping at each other, engaging & trying new things will increase enjoyment and better promote the hobby. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted October 20, 2024 Share Posted October 20, 2024 I'm amazed at what I've read here. At both of my clubs we tend to mind our own business regarding what others fly and enjoy - I don't find 'novelty' models very inspiring myself but will have a laugh at flying bog seats etc although I have zero interest in owning one myself. I have club mates that seem to be happiest when having a go at everything that comes along, and others who turn up with the same old kit that they've flown for decades, week in and week out. That's fine by me - as long as they pay their subs and abide the club rules, why should anyone else be concerned? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleSticks Posted October 21, 2024 Share Posted October 21, 2024 I've not read all 3 pages as most of my views are mentioned in page one and i'll reply to those points in a moment.. but as a returning newbie i do have some thoughts to put out there. RC is expensive! I got my first trainer when i was 16 (2nd hand) for £75. The guy even chucked in an old JR transmitter (no battery cover) for testing servos etc on the grounds that I didn't use it for flying as he couldn't guarantee its reliability. So a couple of years later I've managed to scrape funds together for a Futaba Skysport4 (this was in around 98-00 times). Naturally that didn't work with the Rx I had and so my mum took it all down the local shop and got them to sort it (new pair of crystals did it). Fuel was a worry cost wise but my nan used to to give me a bit of money every now and then. Eventually the plane flew (like a dog) with the help of a pilot I met at the local field as I had no idea how to contact the local club back then. He got it down safely and made modifications to it at his house which made it far better. A few lessons from him then he went silent so i carried on flying by myself and eventually met some club members there one day, got signed up and got more help from them. Eventually it nosedived into the ground (burying a brand new OS 21LA 1.5ft below the surface and anchoring itself down there with the prop). When we got it back out (taking two of us all our might) it came up as matches. Literally long strands of balsa. Bummer. So that was the end of my flying, the engine was a bit damaged (leaking fuel from the head when i had it on a test stand) and so while that got fixed, I had nothing to put it in. Bought a 'mustprang' at the local show, built that, got it flying but the club wasn't overly happy to carry on teaching me with it (it was all I'd been able to afford - £35) so I kinda gave up. For my 18th I got a Raptor 30 heli.. only snag was I'd forgotten to count in the cost of a gyro so that took another year to get airborne too. Then a neighbour got upset about the noise, no car to get to the local flying site (we'd moved away from it - prior to that we were right next to it) and so that was the end of that. Eventually I became short of cash and so the raptor and everything else went with it - for just £250. 20 odd years later, I'm back - kinda. Bought a used Raptor 50 from a guy on ebay (ready to fly) with Spektrum DX7, Rx, Gyro etc. Great! Only snag was I picked it up, got it home, all the batteries were dead and refused to charge. Slowly putting money aside I eventually replaced some of them, got the engine running and the thing is wobbling around all over the place (oh yes and the plastic wrap on the blades was damaged too - clearly been used as a hedge trimmer). Several years later it's still not left the ground but is sat in the shed with another Raptor 30 I bought new in 2010 - but then never continued with (it has no radio or engine in it). So, 2023 we're at the southern model show and finally bought our first flying plane - a little RC foam cessna for my lad. Cost £50 but it was literally ready to fly and we had great fun with it. In 22 he had bought a used Lima helicopter but the battery was shot, no charger and he tried to fly it briefly and nearly took his own eye out - he's not tried again since. Anyway in 23 I bought new batteries for it from the show, we got that airborne in the kitchen too but it's also not been used for a while now but meanwhile i bought myself a used one too and bent the shafts on that - it's still in pieces waiting to be rebuilt.. This year his cessna vanished, I bought him an electric glider at the show (which he didn't like so i bought him another cessna online - glider is now mine), a bigger leccy glider for me, a leccy trainer - Sportsman S+ which is also foam. It took me months of saving and saving to afford that lot and even then the only thing my Spektrum TX is used for is his Delta Ray One that his mum bought for him 2nd hand for £35 at the show (flies great, I love it lol). Bought plans for the T.A.4 Topcat (as mentioned in another topic, only took me 25 years) but I don't have space to build it! Our house is pretty small and we downsized when we moved from rented to buying this. RC is simply expensive - though I have had large gaps in employment due to health woes which many others don't have to worry about but either way, it is an expensive hobby and one that is generally only available to those with disposable income or parents who have disposable income. On 15/10/2024 at 12:05, Robin Colbourne said: Could it be that the 30 to 40 year olds are either spending time with their families, working overtime to pay for their families, because of their family don't have the surplus funds to spend on hobbies, or if they don't have families are off doing more physical, energetic activities whilst their bodies will allow them to do so? From what I've seen, there are plenty of younger people using R/C equipment, the larger proportion of them just don't choose to do so in the traditional club environment. Whilst I agree that clubs should encourage new members of all ages, the retirees are the ones with the time, money and space to build and fly the sort of models that get flown at club sites. Clubs are also expensive along with insurance. Not to everyone but to many of us in the UK do struggle. On 15/10/2024 at 15:23, Robin Colbourne said: Grumpy Gnome, exactly this. When I was at school, the number of children with single or divorced parents was very, very low. Now it is possibly more common than a mother and father living together with their own children. The number of boys (because, like it or lump it, our hobby appeals primarily to males) living with a full-time father figure (who might take an interest in the hobby himself) is diminishing all the time. Parents are having to juggle their time between their other children, stepchildren and a myriad of other calls on their time, so the idea of spending a large chunk of their daylight weekend hours standing around at a flying field waiting for little Johnny to get a few minutes of an instructor's time, is unlikely to happen. If the child is really obsessed about model flying, then a flight simulator and a gyro-stabilised electric model they can fly by themselves in a local park will seem like a wise purchase. Nail on head. I was a kid in the 80s, my mum divorced in 81 which was quite rare back then, all the other kids had dads, I didn't. Money was always tight, she was always ill, it's taken me decades to get to where I am now - which isn't really very far compared to many people out there. These days far more couples split and the number of broken home children out there is a much higher number than when I was young. I managed to avoid it but many of them turn to crime, drugs etc. RC to many isn't a interest. My partner and I split a few years ago, I never moved out but stayed put wanting to try again. Two years later that happened and we're now good but I've always been aware that my role as a dad is to be there for my boy - not clear off and start over. He's a happy kid and does have interest in RC but just isn't confident in it yet. Our local club has a waiting list so we're stuck with park flyers and a DIY approach to flying at the moment. On 16/10/2024 at 09:39, Seabee said: Possibly not dying but evolving. It used to be that if you wanted a plane you had to build it which required time, space, skill and some determination. Now ARTFs are made with a precision that few builders can match and sold at a price which can be less than something hand built due to the escalating cost of balsa and associated materials. If the demand dries up then eventually the supply does as well. For me now building is more satisfying than flying and looking round at the models at our field I am clearly in a small minority. However it appears to me that model plane flying has never been so accessible with inexpensive radio gear and good flying ARTFs. Space.. that's a big issue these days. New builds are getting smaller and smaller. I have no space for building and as much as I want to build the Topcat, I simply can't. Nor do I have the funds to sink into balsa at present. For us, park flyers are the best option which means we're off the radar BMFA / Club wise and don't exist to the other pilots in this area. I'd love to have a workshop where I could build planes. I knew a guy years ago who had a massive flat and it was full of RC planes, he really loved his life and literally built a new plane each week. Unfortunately that isn't a possibility for many of us. On 16/10/2024 at 11:07, Ron Gray said: Not necessarily! If you want to be good at doing something then you have to practice which usually means restricting your flying to a particular model type. I disagree, I've known people who fly multiple types and weren't bothered. Glow, petrol, electric, plane, helo, umbrella... For me the overall obstacles in this hobby are money and space. We're lucky that we have a local park / field which we can walk to in 2 minutes with the park flyers (and those are taking up space we don't really have lol) but at present I could never build anything from balsa or store it because balsa is expensive these days and we just don't have the space to store stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted October 22, 2024 Share Posted October 22, 2024 (edited) I'm sorry to hear of the bad situations that you've encountered over the years and your efforts made to hold things together. I disagree that our hobby is expensive though. 'Expensive' is relative to one's circumstances and even chaps that I've known for years and are very well sorted financially will moan about the price of fuel and a couple of quid rise in subs etc. We had one chap in our club ages ago who wasn't short of a bob or two but made really nice models out of scrap corregated cardboard and Cornflakes boxes that cost nothing. One cuts one's cloth to suit one's clothing is an old saying that still holds true today - it's so easy to fall into the trap of buying too much, or worse still, buying too much of the wrong stuff. Beginners are very prone to this and the inevitable 'burn out' that follows. Not your situation of course. Second hand gear seems a good option, but is fraught with hazards and the risk of throwing away good money on a bargain - especially complex and/or expensive kit. If money is particularly tight, then anything to do with helicopters will put your bank balance under considerable pressure. I recall one chap's obsession with helis, so much so that the money he spent on them was such that it cost him his marriage. Very sad. Stick with the park flyers and enjoy them for now - many modellers only ever aspire to this type of flying, maybe when your local club is available to you your horizons will expand. Keep things simple and don't get out of your depth. A rule that I like to follow in most things and not just our hobby. Best wishes and good luck. Edited October 22, 2024 by Cuban8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted October 22, 2024 Share Posted October 22, 2024 Hi fs, Yes, if you only have £1 per week available for modeling stuff, stuff is very expensive ! So that's £52 a year...... Back in the day i t took me about a year to save for my first 35mzh set. Radio sets are real value for not much money these days Do you ir anybody else actually need a £1000 radio set ? 4 max sells economy motor, esc and 4 servo packs for £25 plus postage. His fovering material is good value too, but I am sure with good *shopping around*, some better prices may be discovered. Skips, once permission has been obtained, can yield model making materials, recycling to boot.... You know of outerzone ? Local libraries, and *inovation centres* help, if you need them.... You are lucky in that you have a suitable park space within walking distance. Gain permission and get insurance ! Does it have a lake suitable for RC slow speed electric boats, and/or sailboats ??? As to skills, you can use a pencil, steel rule, stanley knife, clothes pegs etc. I am sure..... Space, a building board can always be slid under a bed when needs be, as can banana boxes and model making materials, even in a floor 73 tower block flat. Learn, think outside the box, overcome, become more resourcefull and skilled, frugal even..... Enjoy.... Ps keep an eye out for those Lidl foam gliders. .....at under a tenner..... Lake in the park ????🤔🤔🤔 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleSticks Posted October 22, 2024 Share Posted October 22, 2024 I recognise the points you make - especially about buying the wrong stuff thats of no use lol but then I'm a bit of a hoarder and collect tons of tools too. I have one of those belt file things (electric sander but thinner).. sat in its box brand new for around 5-6 years and I only got that out recently when I needed to chew through some spot welds on my van and got the tip from youtube lol. RC IS expensive. You mention knowing people who are well off who build from cardboard and moan about costs going up. They've probably got big mortgages and costs of living but struggle to find disposable cash (well off people often present an illusion - many are buried in debt). I love helicopters.. can't help it. That's what Airwolf did for me lol. I have them but I've already realised that getting into it is going to take me several years of slowly collecting the bits I need - I'll get there and it's one of those things that I just have to keep hoping for. The little electrics are fun though - the Lima has a clever swashplate setup and despite being dual rotor, still works pretty much the same as the larger ones - TRICKY!! For the time being we're happy with park flyers though its not as rewarding it does the job of having something to fly and that's where the hobby appears to be shrinking - except that in my view it isn't. Look online, (youtube, ebay etc) there's tons of stuff out there.. but you do need spare cash (and space!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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