The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:19:20:

I've been wondering on where to put my OP ID and was wondering if it would be ok in the battery compartment somewhere as it's easy to access

Edited By Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:20:21

Yes - ideal spot for it.

[Dickw]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/11/2019 11:53:17:

Posted by Chris Berry on 19/11/2019 11:47:44:

That's an interesting point Nigel.

We have only ever done the minimum 5 to affiliate. In the last year we now have 40 members registered through the club who have done so via the online portal and all have our club name on their BMFA membership.

Does that mean they are now no longer country members and will need to pay via the club affiliation process?

I think that is correct. I went into the portal yesterday and did some housekeeping - noticed that there is a section for the club(s) that you are a member of and it correctly shows my club.

So when I renew I expect it will be against the club rather than as a country member but I have raised a ticket in the portal asking for clarification.

Cheers,

Nigel

I renewed my BMFA directly via the portal last year and paid club subs separately direct to the clubs. I am not a country member.

The portal lists the clubs I am a member of and shows one as my "primary" club against which my affilaition is listed. You can chose/change which club is your primary.

Dick

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Gary Manuel on 19/11/2019 12:30:19:

Posted by Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:19:20:

I've been wondering on where to put my OP ID and was wondering if it would be ok in the battery compartment somewhere as it's easy to access

Edited By Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:20:21

Yes - ideal spot for it.

Has there been any further clarification on this - I know that the CAA had proposed a wording change and it was to be discussed by the BMFA when they met with the CAA last week.

My thoughts unless there have been further developments, is that abiding by the exact wording of the legislation, no you can’t put the Operator ID inside the battery compartment. The reason I say that is the last wording I saw said that IF it is not possible to display the label on the outside then it can be displayed on the inside provided that NO tools are required to access it.

In this case I would say that it IS possible to display the label on the outside.

Of course that is the letter of legislation.

In reality, are the police ever going to want to see it - probably not.

And if they do, and you flip open the hatch to show it would they be satisfied - I’m sure they would.

Would they charge you for not displaying the label on the outside - I’m sure they wouldn’t.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Philip Lewis 3]

Posted by Dickw on 19/11/2019 12:59:22:

Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/11/2019 11:53:17:

Posted by Chris Berry on 19/11/2019 11:47:44:

That's an interesting point Nigel.

We have only ever done the minimum 5 to affiliate. In the last year we now have 40 members registered through the club who have done so via the online portal and all have our club name on their BMFA membership.

Does that mean they are now no longer country members and

I renewed my BMFA directly via the portal last year and paid club subs separately direct to the clubs. I am not a country member.

The portal lists the clubs I am a member of and shows one as my "primary" club against which my affilaition is listed. You can chose/change which club is your primary.

Dick

I do likewise but my membership card clearly still state Country Member, what does your membership card say? (Its on the reverse side).

[Dickw]

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 19/11/2019 13:06:10:

 

I do likewise but my membership card clearly still state Country Member, what does your membership card say? (Its on the reverse side).

It states the name and number of my primary club.

Have you selected a primary club on the portal?

Dick

Edited By Dickw on 19/11/2019 13:12:57

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/11/2019 13:02:54:

Posted by Gary Manuel on 19/11/2019 12:30:19:

Posted by Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:19:20:

I've been wondering on where to put my OP ID and was wondering if it would be ok in the battery compartment somewhere as it's easy to access

Edited By Supersavage on 19/11/2019 12:20:21

Yes - ideal spot for it.

Has there been any further clarification on this - I know that the CAA had proposed a wording change and it was to be discussed by the BMFA when they met with the CAA last week.

My thoughts unless there have been further developments, is that abiding by the exact wording of the legislation, no you can’t put the Operator ID inside the battery compartment. The reason I say that is the last wording I saw said that IF it is not possible to display the label on the outside then it can be displayed on the inside provided that NO tools are required to access it.

In this case I would say that it IS possible to display the label on the outside.

Of course that is the letter of legislation.

In reality, are the police ever going to want to see it - probably not.

And if they do, and you flip open the hatch to show it would they be satisfied - I’m sure they would.

Would they charge you for not displaying the label on the outside - I’m sure they wouldn’t.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

I believe the intention to be (and the main reason why the relaxation of the original specification was sought) that this was to cater for scale models - I can't imagine any >250g drone or sport model not being able to be marked externally.

I think it is better for us to set a good example and compliance with the spirit of the legislation by displaying the numbers externally unless it is "impossible", and that is probably only in the case where the function/nature of a scale model is being spoilt by non-scale lettering.

After all, if it was that optional, wouldn't the word used be "impractical" or "inconvenient"?

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/11/2019 13:20:50

[Ben B]

Do we have clarity yet on the 250g limit yet- is that with fuel? What about batteries? With an electric vehicle is that without batteries? I suspect not.....

Do we think it's likely the rules will be enforced with any enthusiasm (if at all)? I'm wary as on our local council run flying site the Park Constabulary have historically gone beyond enthusiastically enforcing the byelaws and made up quite a few of their own!!!!

e.g. the BMFA test confirms I can't fly behind a tree. What about a sapling. Tall blade of grass? Low flying pigeon?

I'm wary because one of the flying sites I go to has rugby posts. Now theoretically someone 10cm wide could be playing hide and seek at the top of the rugby post and in the 0.01 seconds I fly behind the post on the final turn I could massively miscalculate and hit them. Admittidly a somewhat niche situation but an officious Park Constable could nonetheless act on "the law".

Hopefully some common sense will be enforced. Big fines though for a slightly muddy plane weighting 253 grams!!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

You can hide an elephant behind a rugby post - just depends on where you are standing and how far away the elephant is!

[Supersavage]

The reason I'm thinking of putting it inside the model is mine is a painted foam model and I can see that if I try to stick something to it it'll just fall off and take the paint with it (I know it's a trainer and it probably won't look great for long but I'd like to keep as nice as I can). Also the battery compartment only has a latch that's really easy to open.

[Chris Berry]

Posted by Supersavage on 19/11/2019 13:26:31:

The reason I'm thinking of putting it inside the model is mine is a painted foam model and I can see that if I try to stick something to it it'll just fall off and take the paint with it (I know it's a trainer and it probably won't look great for long but I'd like to keep as nice as I can). Also the battery compartment only has a latch that's really easy to open.

This is something I have raised direclty with the CAA, as there are many many models to which a sticker/label will not stick very well at all, be that foam or oily covering, as well as the airflow, weather and general wear and tear. I'm told they are blind to such arguments, but I await a reply from them.

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Chris Berry on 19/11/2019 13:35:09:

Posted by Supersavage on 19/11/2019 13:26:31:

The reason I'm thinking of putting it inside the model is mine is a painted foam model and I can see that if I try to stick something to it it'll just fall off and take the paint with it (I know it's a trainer and it probably won't look great for long but I'd like to keep as nice as I can). Also the battery compartment only has a latch that's really easy to open.

 

 

This is something I have raised direclty with the CAA, as there are many many models to which a sticker/label will not stick very well at all, be that foam or oily covering, as well as the airflow, weather and general wear and tear. I'm told they are blind to such arguments, but I await a reply from them.

 

.... and don't forget that it needs to be removable in case the ID number changes each year. Could this be described as "Impossible" without damaging the outside of the aircraft? Doesn't matter inside the hatch.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 19/11/2019 13:46:17

[Supersavage]

I'll put it in there for the time being and keep an eye on things to see if they come up with something more specific.

Edited By Supersavage on 19/11/2019 13:48:52

[Chris Berry]

Indeed, the number may not remain the same, even up until June when the EASA regs come in to force. The CAA aren't yet fully geared up for that.

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Ben B on 19/11/2019 13:20:41:

Do we have clarity yet on the 250g limit yet- is that with fuel? What about batteries? With an electric vehicle is that without batteries? I suspect not.....

Do we think it's likely the rules will be enforced with any enthusiasm (if at all)? I'm wary as on our local council run flying site the Park Constabulary have historically gone beyond enthusiastically enforcing the byelaws and made up quite a few of their own!!!!

e.g. the BMFA test confirms I can't fly behind a tree. What about a sapling. Tall blade of grass? Low flying pigeon?

I'm wary because one of the flying sites I go to has rugby posts. Now theoretically someone 10cm wide could be playing hide and seek at the top of the rugby post and in the 0.01 seconds I fly behind the post on the final turn I could massively miscalculate and hit them. Admittidly a somewhat niche situation but an officious Park Constable could nonetheless act on "the law".

Hopefully some common sense will be enforced. Big fines though for a slightly muddy plane weighting 253 grams!!

You just need to apply common sense. If the aircraft goes behind an obstruction and is out of site ling enough for you to lose control or to hit something that you can’t see then that isn’t allowed. You wouldn’t have done that before the regulations. But fly behind an obstruction that obstructs the aircraft for a fraction, like a sapling or a rugby post then common sense that is fine, you won’t lose control in that time, there isn’t something out of sight behind it.

Cheers,

Nigel

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Don Valley mfc's AGM last night, Andy Symons came and gave a very good talk on the registration scheme and some insight into the talks, we had a rundown on the new online test the BMFA have rolled out and some members took it on the night, all passed.

There also a new plastic membership card coming in, comes with a discount option at some stores.

Thanks Andy.

[Paul C.]

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/11/2019 14:03:36:

You just need to apply common sense. If the aircraft goes behind an obstruction and is out of site ling enough for you to lose control or to hit something that you can’t see then that isn’t allowed. You wouldn’t have done that before the regulations. But fly behind an obstruction that obstructs the aircraft for a fraction, like a sapling or a rugby post then common sense that is fine, you won’t lose control in that time, there isn’t something out of sight behind it.

Quite so. Let's not allow the elephant to become a red herring...

The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions.

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/11/2019 20:51:37

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Paul C. on 19/11/2019 20:25:38:

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

Like the idea of the plastic card, but I already have access to those sorts of offers from various places. For example I get them as an employee benefit, my wife gets them because she still has an active NUS card and my wife also gets them them from where she works too.

We don’t use them that often because they are often more of a faff that the sales blurb lets on.

Very few of the deals are “present the card and get an on the spot discount”, most are you have to go online and buy gift vouchers or you have to apply for a store card wait for it to arrive in the post and then go online to load that up - which you choose depends on the way you shop.

But the savings are genuine - for example I have just bought a games console from PC world and I saved £31 (8%). But this is how I had to do it :-

Went to PC World online and got the items in my cart to make sure they actually had them.

Logged on to the loyalty card website

Selected the vouchers I needed (£390 in this case - can only do amounts whole £10s, so you will most likely have to top up the purchase with credit card)

Paid the loyalty company £358.80

This displayed the vouchers on the screen to be printed off if using in-store or just use the numbers if buying online

Annoyingly was given four vouchers, £100, £50, £20, £20 rather than one voucher for £390 - the site does warn you of this beforehand.

Back to the PCWorld site, enter the four vouchers - And it worked

 

So it works, just a bit of a palaver, and can be a bit anxious jumping through the hoops, so I find we don’t actually use it that much.

 

But £3.50 is a good price, you only have to use it once each year to be up on the deal.

 

Just wanted to make people aware how it works, you won’t be able to simply get to the till at John Lewis, whip out your BMFA card and get an on the spot discount.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

 

Edited By Nigel Heather on 20/11/2019 07:50:43

Edited By Nigel Heather on 20/11/2019 07:52:00

Edited By Nigel Heather on 20/11/2019 08:14:13

[Cuban8]

Posted by Paul C. on 19/11/2019 20:25:38:

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

Didn't we have a BMFA Credit Card quite a few years ago IIRC? Don't think that lasted very long. All these loyalty/discount schemes that charge a membership fee, make me smile. Why is it thought right that one should pay to 'save' money?

When I was with Santander for a while, they couldn't understand my rejection of their 123 or whatever it was called 'deal'. I think it was originally £3 a month to get various 'extras' but over time the subscription got more expensive and the 'deals' became less attractive. They make their money when people forget they've signed up and don't take advantage of the card. TBH, people have more important things to worry about over the longer term. They all seem to go this way, so that's why they're of no interest to me. I find I can get good deals or savings by normal shopping around methods.

Not the same because it's free, but my wife's M&S 'Sparks Card' sounds great but is for most of the time quite useless, because I'm sure that they track how my wife spends in M&S and then they tend to give offers for things that she rarely or never buys to drum up extra sales - hardly ever is there a discount on something that she gets regularly - why should they? A clever ruse as most of these discount schemes are. I do admit to having a Nectar Card that's quite good and usually pays for the Christmas food, and Meekat Meals and Meerkat Movies that do actually give worthwhile discounts, so not all bad.

I doubt whether many members of my club will go for a BMFA membership card that they have to pay for, but I can understand the BMFA's interest in raising a bit of revenue for itself from members that do go for the offer - I guess that they'll get a payment for 'selling' the card. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 20/11/2019 10:05:35

[Kevin 216]

Posted by Paul C. on 19/11/2019 20:25:38:

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

Not for me reading previous posts too much like faffing about, I would rather spend the time doing something else.

[Paul C.]

I do like to have a membership card that I can just stick in my wallet that is easy to get at , not really bothered about discounts. Tried downloading and printing from the membership portal but have enough in my wallet without doing an origami job on a piece of A4 paper. Just another one of my little foibles 😂

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Cuban8 on 20/11/2019 10:04:22:

Posted by Paul C. on 19/11/2019 20:25:38:

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

Didn't we have a BMFA Credit Card quite a few years ago IIRC? Don't think that lasted very long. All these loyalty/discount schemes that charge a membership fee, make me smile. Why is it thought right that one should pay to 'save' money?

When I was with Santander for a while, they couldn't understand my rejection of their 123 or whatever it was called 'deal'. I think it was originally £3 a month to get various 'extras' but over time the subscription got more expensive and the 'deals' became less attractive. They make their money when people forget they've signed up and don't take advantage of the card. TBH, people have more important things to worry about over the longer term. They all seem to go this way, so that's why they're of no interest to me. I find I can get good deals or savings by normal shopping around methods.

Not the same because it's free, but my wife's M&S 'Sparks Card' sounds great but is for most of the time quite useless, because I'm sure that they track how my wife spends in M&S and then they tend to give offers for things that she rarely or never buys to drum up extra sales - hardly ever is there a discount on something that she gets regularly - why should they? A clever ruse as most of these discount schemes are. I do admit to having a Nectar Card that's quite good and usually pays for the Christmas food, and Meekat Meals and Meerkat Movies that do actually give worthwhile discounts, so not all bad.

I doubt whether many members of my club will go for a BMFA membership card that they have to pay for, but I can understand the BMFA's interest in raising a bit of revenue for itself from members that do go for the offer - I guess that they'll get a payment for 'selling' the card. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited By Cuban8 on 20/11/2019 10:05:35

Recent survey we conducted (admittedly online) was 60% happy with paperless, 40% happy to pay for a membership card, £3.50 is what the cards cost posted to the member, it's not a money making exercise, simply meeting the requests of members who wanted a more substantial membership card in a way that can save them some money if they choose.

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 20/11/2019 12:25:43:

Posted by Cuban8 on 20/11/2019 10:04:22:

Posted by Paul C. on 19/11/2019 20:25:38:

Like the look of the membership card going to get me one of those 👍

Didn't we have a BMFA Credit Card quite a few years ago IIRC? Don't think that lasted very long. All these loyalty/discount schemes that charge a membership fee, make me smile. Why is it thought right that one should pay to 'save' money?

When I was with Santander for a while, they couldn't understand my rejection of their 123 or whatever it was called 'deal'. I think it was originally £3 a month to get various 'extras' but over time the subscription got more expensive and the 'deals' became less attractive. They make their money when people forget they've signed up and don't take advantage of the card. TBH, people have more important things to worry about over the longer term. They all seem to go this way, so that's why they're of no interest to me. I find I can get good deals or savings by normal shopping around methods.

Not the same because it's free, but my wife's M&S 'Sparks Card' sounds great but is for most of the time quite useless, because I'm sure that they track how my wife spends in M&S and then they tend to give offers for things that she rarely or never buys to drum up extra sales - hardly ever is there a discount on something that she gets regularly - why should they? A clever ruse as most of these discount schemes are. I do admit to having a Nectar Card that's quite good and usually pays for the Christmas food, and Meekat Meals and Meerkat Movies that do actually give worthwhile discounts, so not all bad.

I doubt whether many members of my club will go for a BMFA membership card that they have to pay for, but I can understand the BMFA's interest in raising a bit of revenue for itself from members that do go for the offer - I guess that they'll get a payment for 'selling' the card. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited By Cuban8 on 20/11/2019 10:05:35

Recent survey we conducted (admittedly online) was 60% happy with paperless, 40% happy to pay for a membership card, £3.50 is what the cards cost posted to the member, it's not a money making exercise, simply meeting the requests of members who wanted a more substantial membership card in a way that can save them some money if they choose.

I like the idea of a plastic card - I will probably have one just as something more substantial than the folded paper one.

I was simply pointing out how these loyalty schemes work, because the people who run these schemes don’t put much effort in telling you. Instead they show you the logos of lots of high street shops so you would naturally think that you just present the card at the till - just telling folks that they don’t work like that.

Cheers,

Nigel

[GONZO]

Well, I had a long chat with my friend this afternoon. Amongst many topics the nonsense that is DRES and the 'criminalisation' of flying toy planes when not compliant with the registration etc. He said it was the final straw and was giving up entirely, that's everything including mag subs etc. So that those who barrack those giving up please understand it's not the £9, it's not the stupid test, it's the principle. He's the chap who lives at the end of a single track lane up in the hills of North Wales with his own 1,000ft field at the bottom of his bungalows garden.

So, to all those 'sheeple' who are falling over themselves to join this pathetic charade, ITS THE PRINCIPLE that's the crux of the matter.

[Alan Gorham_]

What principle exactly? A law has been passed and I need to obey that law to pursue my hobby lawfully. And that makes me a sheeple with no principles?