target drone

[JACK]

ok gentlepersons,this is a weird one!!,l have been approached by a local clay pidgeon shooting club as to the possibility of supplying a target aircraft and pilot services.....l am not even sure if this would be legal,but,assuming it is,can anyone suggest a suitable airframe,to be powered by a .40 glow engine????,l really dont think an electric set up would be advisable for obvious reasons,build costs would need to be low,this is a new one on me,cant wait to reqad the responses!!!!

[Bruce Collinson]

I’ve shot at these, there is a commercial supplier to large corporate clay shoots who called them Darts, from memory.   Crucially, they carry thunder flashes on the underside and scoring is by the number of visible explosions, not by the destruction of the plane.

 

They are .40 size foam deltas which are launched from a catapult ramp and the entire works are in a steel plated module at the front, engine, tank, Rx and battery.   These are made to swap over quickly but I did not observe the control linkages .   Probably, they fly on elevons as perfect aerodynamics are scarcely needed.   All they need to do is launch cleanly then display their underside as they pass the guns.

 

They need a surprising amount of lead (that’s forward allowance for the antis).

 

I imagine you would find something online with enough effort.   Hope this helps.

 

BTC

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, JACK said:

ok gentlepersons,this is a weird one!!,l have been approached by a local clay pidgeon shooting club as to the possibility of supplying a target aircraft and pilot services.....l am not even sure if this would be legal,but,assuming it is,can anyone suggest a suitable airframe,to be powered by a .40 glow engine????,l really dont think an electric set up would be advisable for obvious reasons,build costs would need to be low,this is a new one on me,cant wait to reqad the responses!!!!

Paul Heckles Aerial Target Systems from the late 90's morphed into their Gnatshoot corporate event service, as described above and still going at their website, offering a professional service.

 

http://www.gnatshoot.co.uk/

[J D 8]

  You want to see some models being shot at then look on the You tube "Big Sandy Shoot 2022 " Set in Arizona where you can bring just about anything you like and have a go. Every thing from submachine guns to old field guns.

Or how about paired MG42's, but if that is not enough a multi barrelled minigun. Still not enough? Four mini guns in a turret mount!!! Models being shot at at about 11 mins and again in the dark with lit up planes and tracer ammunition flying at about 20 mins.

  Even so not a lot of planes brought down even though  tens of thousands of rounds expended. Unbelievable and nuts.

[Andy Stephenson]

I've seen this video and most of the planes were corriboard deltas with old glow engines and out of date radio gear. They didn't want to use anything nice.

[SIMON CRAGG]

A group of us designed and flew target drones for several shoots back in the day.

 

Overall, we must have made at least ten models.

 

White water pipe for fuz and cover for engine.

 

Simple Correx delta shaped wing and fin.

 

MDS .40 power?!

 

"Flash-Bang" charges taped to model.

 

We had a huge amount of fun developing the models, the hardest bit being getting the engines to run reliably!.

 

They turned out to be very difficult to hit, and on several occasions we had to fly lower and slower, so the row of guns could obtain some decent hits.

 

Even when one group decided to use solid tracer shot, we never had one shot down, although by the end of the day they were scrap!.

 

Fantastic fun, and a great project. 

 

 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Mds power 🤢so it was a lame duck shooting spree, did any actually get into the air ?.

[MattyB]

13 hours ago, JACK said:

ok gentlepersons, this is a weird one!! l have been approached by a local clay pigeon shooting club as to the possibility of supplying a target aircraft and pilot services.....l am not even sure if this would be legal…

I am not sure either, so would recommend you consult with the BMFA to understand any potential pitfalls before starting the project. Certainly your standard insurance is unlikely to be valid as this will not be “Sport, Recreation, Education or Demonstration” use (as the club are certain to be being reimbursed); for this reason you also won’t be able to fly under any Article 16 exemption secured by the national associations. Not necessarily a show stopper, but also not something you can just disregard and plough on.

 

Article 16 authorisation information

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by MattyB

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Mds power 🤢so it was a lame duck shooting spree, did any actually get into the air ?.

Maybe they were looking to simulate a Dodo hunt…! 😉

[SIMON CRAGG]

At the time, if an engine failed to work, it was sent to Ripmax who sent a new one in return. Eventually we had enough to get a couple in the air at least.

 

This was way before Health and Safety / PC / Woke brigade had gone mad.

[JACK]

thanks all,fantastic response!!!!!,l believe l will contact the BMFA to clarify things further,also,l will get the clay club to check with their insurers,l agree that a delta design may well be the way to go.

[Engine Doctor]

Why would it not be legal ? if both parties consent flyer and shooter then what's the problem . Its been going on for ages at one place or another . Provided its a private area with ample space around then whats the harm ? Better than shooting a living creature surely .

[Don Fry]

Yea, and everyone learns just how difficult a beam shot on a quick delta is. Just like in WW2.

When I shot pigeons as a child, (8 I think), you got a bounty from the farmer, per bird. Mum got the pigeon. I had a 410 shotgun. It was possible to make a profit, but no beam shots. 

[SIMON CRAGG]

Another possible source of models ready made in storage somewhere.

 

Back in the day, the Royal Artillery had a team called "MATS". (Model aircraft target systems).

 

Glass fibre fus with parachute recovery system. Merco .61 (no exhaust), Skyleader linear servos. 11X7.3/4 Kavan blue bendy prop. 60"+ wingspan.

 

The guys had a transit loaded to the roof with models and support kit. Pretty much travelled the World providing targets for us to try and shoot down.

 

Not a bad job.

 

Needless to say, one way or the other I accumulated lots of useful bits!.

 

So many stories.....so little time. 

 

 

[MattyB]

9 hours ago, Engine Doctor said:

Why would it not be legal ? if both parties consent flyer and shooter then what's the problem . Its been going on for ages at one place or another . Provided its a private area with ample space around then whats the harm ? Better than shooting a living creature surely .

 

I didn't say it was illegal, I said it needs to be checked carefully before you start as things like the Article 16 exemptions can't be used in a commercial setting, and a given site might be relying on that to stay legal (e.g. regarding distances to uninvolved persons etc).

[Peter Miller]

Back in the 1980s when I had a small business making desk top models I was approached to find pilots for target drones.

 

I found one or two who took the job and travelled round doing the job.  One got hold of several salvaged Mercos and a stack of Servos...I think they were Skyleada servos but I could be wrong on that. These were salvaged from shot down targets

[SIMON CRAGG]

Whilst in BAOR, I was in the position to be able to book the MATS team for range days. (Cent AVRE 165).

 

The main being able to get my grubby mitts on some spares.

 

Throughout the day, I took careful note of where the models came down (All dead stick, as despite converting large amounts of rounds to brass none were hit).

 

I had to sign to say the area had been carefully searched? and nothing found?.

 

Once the armour and everybody had pushed off, I recruited a couple of helpers, and retrieved the models.

 

Happy days!.

 

 

[Brian Cooper]

Yeah, I have done this, but it was a longgg time ago. . . Probably 40 years ago. 

 

We used specially made aircraft with several redundancy systems for the controls. 

It was enormous fun. 

We had a line of ten guys with shotguns who all fired with each pass of the model. . . They registered hits but contrary to what most people believe, it is extremely difficult to destroy a model in flight with a 12-bore shotgun (or even ten shotguns). 

 

Just a couple of obvious safety points: 

Make sure all non-shooters are behind the guns.

The pilot might appreciate some ear defenders. 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Maybe you can contact the UK Caa, they even have information on hexa drones that can fly at 30.000 feet at 500 klm/h,,,

 

 

[Don Fry]

4 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Maybe you can contact the UK Caa, they even have information on hexa drones that can fly at 30.000 feet at 500 klm/h,,,

 

 

You have checked the source?

[Peter Miller]

Now I don't know a vast amount about aerodynamics  but the suggestion that that drone is over taking an airliner without any forward thrust apart from a slight tilt of the rotors defies all logic.

 

Consider that the sideways motion of that drone would create vast amounts of drag at the speed needed to overtake an airliner.

 

I have only one comment.  "Male Bovine by product"

[Andy Stephenson]

Does anyone have a link to the CAA's website to prove Bruce Simpson's assertion is correct about this being an extract from their website...

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

35 minutes ago, Andy Stephenson said:

Does anyone have a link to the CAA's website to prove Bruce Simpson's assertion is correct about this being an extract from their website...

If you had watched the video the link is on the bottom, as you don't have the time here it is,,,,https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAA RPAS Safety Reporting Project (CAP2356).pdf

 

you will find it there, do you want the page number ?.

[Philip Lewis 3]

Yes here it is,https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAA RPAS Safety Reporting Project (CAP2356).pdf and also attached, you want page 24 out of 100

CAA RPAS Safety Reporting Project (CAP2356).pdf

[leccyflyer]

If you just flick through the pictures in that document they are obviously photoshopped in the extreme. Surely nobody is suggesting that the image shown is of an actual drone "overtaking" an airliner at 30,000ft.

More worrying isn't the notion that media hysteria is being generated, it's the fact that, as model flyers some of us have actually encouraged being grouped together with drones, multirotors, beyond visual line of sight operations and the whole slew of operations which bring unmanned aerial vehicles into potential conflict with manned aircraft. It has always been my believe that we should have made every effort to maintain clear blue water (or air) between what we do as model aeroplane flyers and these other activities, which are not model aeroplane flying.