Spektrum Receivers

[Kim Taylor]

39 minutes ago, Keith Billinge said:

If Spektrum had a bit more customer focus maybe they wouldn't have inflated their prices to a crazy level overnight. Who can afford £50 for a basic 4Channel RX when the competition is pumping them out for £15-£20?

 

It depends on WHO Spektrum see as their competition. Maybe they've joined Futaba and buried their heads in an adjacent sand dune.

It seems to me that, other than those already 'locked in' to Spektrum, Futaba, etc then open source radios, maybe with multi protocol modules, are the future at the hobby end of the market.

Kim

[steve too]

46 minutes ago, Keith Billinge said:

I hate the feeling that I'm being ripped off. 

 

How do you think that Spektrum/Horizon Hobby feel about piracy/reverse engineering?

[Don Fry]

Keith, before I start, I give notice I have a hat in this ring. I designed a two meter aircraft, drew it, cut it, built it, tweaked it. Very nice flyer, very very happy bunny. Worth the considerable workload. Spectrum rx. 
Flight 15, fail safe, dead, plunged to earth, trimmed to fly in the direction it points. Testing, it worked, but failed every so often. Opened it up, circuit board was just not quite right, slightly messy, and a whisker/strand of a power cable was suspiciously close to a short potential, and I was working  the aircraft hard. That Spectrum rx did not pass QC unless by a blind inspector. I did some research, and mine was a fake, different screws fitted, very minor differences to some of the fonts. 
So I’m down a couple of hundred hours, a new 25 cc petrol engine, rx I paid proper money for, airframe costs, some servos, and an abiding hatred of fake stuff.

The fake/dodgey sellers tell us they are tail end production, using spare components, after the famous brand has had its order. Lie like a cheap watch. Rant over.

 

I don’t know why the prices have shot up, perhaps you are right, rip off, or not, chaotic supply chains beating up small order people. Assumptions cut no ice.  Similarly, any actual evidence that the same factory, circuit board, components are used in el cheapo, and a Branded item?
I use Spectrum stuff. I’m not a 100% fan, and I will move on to multi protocol when I decide to change my Tx. 
But there has to be a price point where good components, good machines, factory practice, QC, can’t be done. 

 

[leccyflyer]

5 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Keith, before I start, I give notice I have a hat in this ring. I designed a two meter aircraft, drew it, cut it, built it, tweaked it. Very nice flyer, very very happy bunny. Worth the considerable workload. Spectrum rx. 
Flight 15, fail safe, dead, plunged to earth, trimmed to fly in the direction it points. Testing, it worked, but failed every so often. Opened it up, circuit board was just not quite right, slightly messy, and a whisker/strand of a power cable was suspiciously close to a short potential, and I was working  the aircraft hard. That Spectrum rx did not pass QC unless by a blind inspector. I did some research, and mine was a fake, different screws fitted, very minor differences to some of the fonts. 
So I’m down a couple of hundred hours, a new 25 cc petrol engine, rx I paid proper money for, airframe costs, some servos, and an abiding hatred of fake stuff.

The fake/dodgey sellers tell us they are tail end production, using spare components, after the famous brand has had its order. Lie like a cheap watch. Rant over.

 

I don’t know why the prices have shot up, perhaps you are right, rip off, or not, chaotic supply chains beating up small order people. Assumptions cut no ice.  Similarly, any actual evidence that the same factory, circuit board, components are used in el cheapo, and a Branded item?
I use Spectrum stuff. I’m not a 100% fan, and I will move on to multi protocol when I decide to change my Tx. 
But there has to be a price point where good components, good machines, factory practice, QC, can’t be done. 

 

So what you are saying Don is that your model crashed because you had inadvertently fitted a fake receiver. That's not Spektrum's fault and it isn't Lemon's fault. The Lemon receivers are not unbranded, they are literally branded as Lemon receivers - a shockingly bad choice of name for the US market, but it's a brand.

The best that we can hope for, in buying our gear is that we do so from a reputable dealer and hope that it is genuine. Your story demonstrates that sticking to a particular brand is absolutely no guarantee of quality, or that the receiver you fit is the real thing.

[Alan Gorham_]

12 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Keith, before I start, I give notice I have a hat in this ring. I designed a two meter aircraft, drew it, cut it, built it, tweaked it. Very nice flyer, very very happy bunny. Worth the considerable workload. Spectrum rx. 
Flight 15, fail safe, dead, plunged to earth, trimmed to fly in the direction it points. Testing, it worked, but failed every so often. Opened it up, circuit board was just not quite right, slightly messy, and a whisker/strand of a power cable was suspiciously close to a short potential, and I was working  the aircraft hard. That Spectrum rx did not pass QC unless by a blind inspector. I did some research, and mine was a fake, different screws fitted, very minor differences to some of the fonts. 
So I’m down a couple of hundred hours, a new 25 cc petrol engine, rx I paid proper money for, airframe costs, some servos, and an abiding hatred of fake stuff.

The fake/dodgey sellers tell us they are tail end production, using spare components, after the famous brand has had its order. Lie like a cheap watch. Rant over.

 

I don’t know why the prices have shot up, perhaps you are right, rip off, or not, chaotic supply chains beating up small order people. Assumptions cut no ice.  Similarly, any actual evidence that the same factory, circuit board, components are used in el cheapo, and a Branded item?
I use Spectrum stuff. I’m not a 100% fan, and I will move on to multi protocol when I decide to change my Tx. 
But there has to be a price point where good components, good machines, factory practice, QC, can’t be done. 

 

The fact that you fitted a Spectrum receiver should have been a giveaway. The genuine articles are branded Spektrum.... 

[Don Fry]

2 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

So what you are saying Don is that your model crashed because you had inadvertently fitted a fake receiver. That's not Spektrum's fault and it isn't Lemon's fault. The Lemon receivers are not unbranded, they are literally branded as Lemon receivers - a shockingly bad choice of name for the US market, but it's a brand.

The best that we can hope for, in buying our gear is that we do so from a reputable dealer and hope that it is genuine. Your story demonstrates that sticking to a particular brand is absolutely no guarantee of quality, or that the receiver you fit is the real thing.

Leccy, that was my hat in the ring. I’m saying, casual throwaways, “ the same stuff, cheap is good, rip off ” is not helpful.

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

 

It was import of non-compliant VTX transmitters for FPV that generated that; from memory I don't think they were Orange branded, but they were definitely way over the max power limits!

 

https://dronedj.com/2022/05/04/hobbyking-fcc-illegal-drone-case/

 

1 hour ago, steve too said:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-16-1290A1.pdf

 

Well remembered. That one (in 2016) is an earlier incident than the VTX one I was recalling from 2020, which may be a follow on but was definitely focussed on VTXs rather than RC transmitters:

 

"2. In this Forfeiture Order, we issue a fine of $2,861,128 against ABC Fulfillment Services LLC and Indubitably, Inc., d/b/a HobbyKing (collectively, HobbyKing or Company) for persistently violating the Commission’s rules intended to ensure that radio frequency devices are properly authorized, and for failing to respond to Commission orders in the investigation of the company’s practices.  For years, HobbyKing advertised and sold on its website to U.S. consumers dozens of models of audio/video transmitters (AV transmitters) for use with unmanned aircraft systems (drones) without regard to whether those AV transmitters were compliant with the Communications Act of 1934, as amended (Act), or the Commission’s rules.1  Several of these models were capable of operating in spectrum bands used by, and causing interference to, important Federal government systems.  Some of the device models operated at power levels above those permitted in the Commission’s rules.

 

3. The Commission’s Enforcement Bureau (Bureau) undertook an investigation of these devices and HobbyKing’s marketing practices, and HobbyKing repeatedly failed to respond fully to the Commission’s requests for information.  On June 5, 2018, we issued a Notice of Apparent Liability for Forfeiture (NAL) against HobbyKing for these apparent violations.2  In its response to the NAL, HobbyKing did not contest that it marketed devices without equipment certifications or that it failed to respond fully to the Bureau.  Instead, HobbyKing raised several unpersuasive legal challenges.  We find no reason to cancel, withdraw, or reduce the penalty we proposed in the NAL, and we therefore assess the full $2,861,128 forfeiture.  "

 

I've never been able to find out what happened in relation to their payment of this fine. Whether they did or not, HK always appeared to play fast and loose with the regs around transmitting devices in the juridictions they sold (these same VTXs were definitely on sale in the EU for a while). This fine (along with their business model being undermined by crackdowns on VAT and import charges in the EU) is probably a major factor in their long slow decline.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by MattyB

[steve too]

Just now, MattyB said:

That one (in 2016) is an earlier incident than the VTX one I was recalling from 2020, which may be a follow on but was definitely focussed on VTXs rather than transmitters:

 

I didn't realise that they had been done by the FCC twice. You would have thought that they might have learned after the first time.

[Outrunner]

2 hours ago, Brian Cooper said:

After hours spent building a model, not to mention the cost, is it really worth trying to save a few quid by buying non-branded radio equipment? 

 

Don't get me started on "cheap" extention leads which might be only 50p but will cost you a model. . . I have lost count of the number of models seen falling to earth due to these "money savers". 

 

Oh well, let's hope nobody is underneath when they fall out of the sky. 

.

It not just about saving a few bob, I resorted to Orange and Lemons as I was having problems with genuine Spektrum receivers.

Although I still use some Spektrum gear mainly for boats, I no longer fly with Spektrum transmitters.

[Nigel R]

1 hour ago, Kim Taylor said:

open source radios, maybe with multi protocol modules, are the future at the hobby end of the market.

I'm quite happy to take mattyb's approach. Foamies and light stuff gets a 'compatible' rx.

 

Anything I have invested time and effort in, will have the real thing.

 

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

[MattyB]

Interest piqued by this thread, I went and had a look at the price of mid to high end Spektrum TX's in comparison to the competition... woah, mind blown 😲! If you think the RXs are expensive, look at the RRP of a new NX20, IX14 or IX20...

 

Spektrum TXs (Al's Hobbies)

 

Yes I know these are their highest end sets (though IMO they don't really match up to the alternatives at their price point for features or physical build), but previously there was always a noticeable price advantage to Spektrum versus the ultra premium Jeti and Powerbox offerings... It seems that is no longer the case. Frsky prices have gone up a too, but Spektrum's hikes still make them look a bargain by comparison (a Frsky X20 which gets universally good reviews for physical quality and usability is only £400):

 

Jeti (at Jetstream)

Powerbox Atom (Nexus model supplies)

Frsky (T9)

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by MattyB

[Nigel R]

Average club flyer will be looking at an nx8 or similar though, so since 370.

 

I think I paid 330 for the dx9 three or four years ago. 

[Ace]

Sorry off RX track but relevant to prices - No evidence but there seems to be a trend particularly for American brands to have used the current financial climate to really hike prices. Noticed it particularly in food.  

[steve too]

8 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

I think I paid 330 for the dx9 three or four years ago. 

 

The NX10 is closer to the DX9 than the NX8 (I have been looking at replacing my DX9), the NX10 is c. £560.

[MattyB]

29 minutes ago, steve too said:

 

The NX10 is closer to the DX9 than the NX8 (I have been looking at replacing my DX9), the NX10 is c. £560.

 

Agreed. The only NX radio I’ve handled (an 8ch) felt rather tinny and fragile in comparison to the DX series it has replaced, and I wasn’t hugely impressed by the build on those tbh. If the 10 has the same physicals and build I’d be very disappointed with it given that price point. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by MattyB

[Zflyer]

Thought the thread was about receivers....

and just my 2d worth (thats pennies in old money) Radiomaster TX16. 

[Phil Green]

On 25/05/2023 at 10:54, Tosh McCaber said:

Was looking to buy another couple of Spektrum AR620, and AR410 ...  £35 now up to £57

My homebrews cost about a fiver to make, £57 for a rx is silly 🙂

[GrumpyGnome]

Looking at prices of receivers overall (all brands), £57 doesn't look exhorbitant! Most of 'our' stuff seems to have gone up waaaaay above inflation.........

[Nigel R]

10 hours ago, steve too said:

The NX10 is closer to the DX9 than the NX8 (I have been looking at replacing my DX9), the NX10 is c. £560.

 

Fair enough.

[MattyB]

10 hours ago, Zflyer said:

Thought the thread was about receivers....

and just my 2d worth (thats pennies in old money) Radiomaster TX16. 

 

It is; I only looked at Spektrum TX prices to see if they had been similarly affected as (if you buy a lot of RXs of one brand and then decide you want a new TX) most people stick with the same brand. I'm sure the BNF factor and high brand awareness will enable them to defend their position at the lower end of the market for the forseeable future, but I just can't see many people paying that kind of money for their high end sets when the build quailty is far lower than competition at the same price. Buyers of £1k+ TXs tend to be pretty discerning on physical quality and gimbal action.

 

EDIT - This is an interesting post from 2019 by a Spektrum fan on RCGroups in a thread where someone is expressing their disappointement about the iX20's physical quality. The poster compares the (then new) iX20 to the competion - it clearly shows how much cheaper top TX was compared to the likes of Jeti and Powerbox at that point, meaning the increases since then must be significantly higher than for those brands.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by MattyB

[Eric Robson]

With the cost of Futaba and Spektrum basic Rx's shooting up, don't be surprised to see more fakes being produced. 

[GrumpyGnome]

I liken Spektrum to Apple - lock you into a closed ecosystem so they can maximise profits by hiking prices, knowing it's too expensive to leave.

 

GG - ex-Spektrum flyer.

[Kim Taylor]

1 hour ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I liken Spektrum to Apple - lock you into a closed ecosystem so they can maximise profits by hiking prices, knowing it's too expensive to leave.

 

GG - ex-Spektrum flyer.

And in what way is that any different to what Futaba have been doing for the last thirty years??

I'm not defending it, but Spektrum are no different to any other manufacturer - even FrSky are moving in that direction now, although (to date) their prices are still on this planet - time will tell if they have made the right decisions.

Kim

[Nigel R]

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

DIT - This is an interesting post from 2019 by a Spektrum fan on RCGroups in a thread

 

In the interests of accuracy, some numbers

 

ix20 then: $1399

spektrum website list price for ix20 now: $1699

increase 20%

 

jeti

then "around $600 more than ix20" = $2000

jeti now: $2400

increase 20%

 

Seems like Jeti have increased just as much as Spektrum?

 

powerbox

then "around $1k more than the ix20" - so, around $2400?

now: 2499

increase, not much, 5% ish

Powerbox, only 5% increase for now, but if they are low volume perhaps they are still on "old stock" prices. Who knows.

[GrumpyGnome]

28 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:

And in what way is that any different to what Futaba have been doing for the last thirty years??

I'm not defending it, but Spektrum are no different to any other manufacturer - even FrSky are moving in that direction now, although (to date) their prices are still on this planet - time will tell if they have made the right decisions.

Kim

 

Tx, rx, esc, lipo, charger......