Is 8 minutes a day sufficient time to practise?

[paul devereux]

I have been in the habit since the Autumn to fly one battery a day to practice. It was for over 10 mins but I've reduced the timer to 8 mins. Now the days are longer and warmer, should I try to get longer or is 8 minutes enough, I wonder? Sometimes one flight seems enough, especially if I have a bit of a near miss when orientation is a problem; then I revert to some straight and level flying for the rest of the flight. I wonder if I should push myself to do more, though?

[toto]

Let the battery tell you. How much power do you have left in the battery after 8 minutes ?

 

Maybe extend to 2 batteries but take a wee break in between. It's a high focus event as you know and if there has been a near miss ..... even more so. I try and fit some flying in between my near misses. 

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

49 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

.... then I revert to some straight and level flying for the rest of the flight. I wonder if I should push myself to do more, though?

When you're learning, 8 minutes can seem an awfully long time (tbh, my flights are about 10 mins max, and I've been at it for years!). Only you can decide what's enough - our learners ALWAYS get asked if they want another flight ....

 

Most critical phases are take off and landing, so maybe have 2 x 4 minute flights for variety and increased practice - and to maintain concentration levels?

Edited June 6, 2023 by GrumpyGnome

[PDB]

I've noticed my concentration levels take a dip around 10 minutes so that's my timer set to land. Take a break for a while then when I feel ready have the next flight.

 

During training some of my flights were shorter.

 

There's no right or wrong, it depends on the individual.

Edited June 6, 2023 by PDB

[Brian Cooper]

Buy more batteries. 

[Nigel R]

if you've flown one flight every day you've flown a lot more than I have recently!

 

That aside, Brian has the answer, I think. Buy a handful of batteries, take them all, pre-charged.

[leccyflyer]

2 hours ago, paul devereux said:

I have been in the habit since the Autumn to fly one battery a day to practice. It was for over 10 mins but I've reduced the timer to 8 mins. Now the days are longer and warmer, should I try to get longer or is 8 minutes enough, I wonder? Sometimes one flight seems enough, especially if I have a bit of a near miss when orientation is a problem; then I revert to some straight and level flying for the rest of the flight. I wonder if I should push myself to do more, though?

There is research suggesting that the optimal length for a lot of different types of  lessons (not specifically flying) is around 25 minutes. After that, you will retain less information and need a break to consolidate. As that might translate to model flying you will probably learn much more in three six minute flights than in one eighteen minute flight, since, with such an intense concentration you will tend to lose concentration towards the ends of that time. Something like 7-8 minutes is perfect IMO for a flight time, especially when you are just starting out in learning to fly.

 

Back in the day when e-flight was not mainstream, it was a pet peeve that comparisons were always made that flight duration wasn't long enough to learn to fly with an electric trainer. Received wisdom at the time was that you needed to fly out the tank on a .40 sized trainer, giving 12-15 minute flights. Most IC instructors did not use a timer and those times were (over) estimates. I know this because I took to timing flights and they rarely exceeded 10 minutes. My OS .25 powered Uno Wot would fly for 11 minutes on a full tank for a lesson. 

 

On an all day flying event, when we were actively trying to stretch flight times to keep a model in the air at all times, over some eight hours continuous flying, the mean flight time was 10 minutes - but that included several flights of >30 minutes. In general use most flights tend to be around 7-8 minutes, irrespective of power source - the exception being EDF. For learning I feel that is the sweet spot to take things in and be able to concentrate the whole times. Is there a chance that your near misses are caused towards the end of the flight when your concentration might be flagging?

 

In your case more batteries and more flights would seem to be the best solution. Four batteries would be a good start. Doing that three-four times a week will likely produce better progress than one single 13 minute flight a day, which was also damaging your batteries.

[Cuban8]

In terms of powered flight, we seem to have  a sort of internal alarm clock that goes off at around the ten minute mark +/- a couple of minutes either way - beginner or old hand.  Just watch what happens over your own field on a busy day. Why this should be, I'm uncertain - I've never heard of clubs limiting flight duration - number of models up together, certainly.  Is there a genuine point where fatigue sets in? Just the way it's always been? Ten minutes being what our old standard 0.40 size trainers back in the day would comfortably run for on a suitably sized tank of glow fuel? Don't want to push our luck, so make a landing while the goings good?

Even flyers with petrol powered models that have the potential to run for very much longer, still seem to have had enough after the 'alarm clock' goes off.

As for getting the best out of a training flight, aim to stick to the standard 8-10 minutes - have at least a 15 minute break and then go again. Maybe a thirty minute rest after that and then repeat. Only a guide, but I think most beginners tend to drift to something similar quite naturally, although probably more flights when on your own. 

BTW, I don't think I've ever known a flyer who liked making inordinately long flights on a regular basis - thermal and slope excepted of course.

[Jon H]

when i was teaching i told my students to aim for 3 flights a day. In the first you just get up, fly, settle in to the day and all that but dont do anything special. Then on the later flights we would actually start trying to learn things. TO be fair i still do this myself. My first flight of the day is always a slightly more sedate affair just to shake the cobwebs off, get used to wind conditions of the day and so on. Usually i fly the more sedate of the two models i brought as well. 

 

As for flight time i always aim for 10 minutes as the others have suggested. Timer set for 8mins 30, final flyby or whatever and then prep for landing. By the time i have done all that i am on the ground for 10 minutes. Some models, mostly my sedate ones, have a substantial fuel reserve so i can go longer with those if i want but it depends on my mood at the time. 

 

When learning however, i have known students become totally saturated mentally in only a few minutes, especially when they are very new. The only option in this case is to land, take a breather, and go again. As they progress they will be able to fly longer and longer before becoming saturated. 

[Frank Skilbeck]

Agree with Jon, also you need some structure to the learning, I usually aim to have the student comfortable with flying figure 8s and circuits at a constant height (and putting the model where they want it to be), then move onto flying approaches and go arounds, once confident on that move on to take offs and then landings.

 

While learning solo can be done, I've often found that students often need/appreciate some guidance as to model positioning, especially on the landing circuit.

 

One of our members who joined a few years ago, was self taught, he and his friend used to fly on a common with long grass, his landings were initially where ever the model wanted to land/arrive, took a bit of assistance and guidance to judge the approach so he was doing smooth landings on the strip at our site.

[Wingman]

Cor! 8 minutes in the air without crashing - Awesome!

[MattyB]

If you really are able to fly most days (unless the weather p[revents you), then a single flight might be fine to keep your progression  ticking along. As per other posters though, it isn't the typical way beginners tend to learn. If flying less often (say once or twice a week) I'd suggest at least three flights a day initially, and as you become more confident and it is taking less mental energy you can up that further. Even if you do continue as you are, you should make sure you have at least three batteries available so that when conditions are good and you have time you can make the most of it.

[Geoff S]

Flying every day for me would involve a 30 min each way drive (30 miles, roughly) and not something I'd want to do.  It's OK if you live very close to a suitable flying site but not otherwise.

[Wookman]

Malcom Gladwell recons it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at something. 

(10,000x60)/8=?

Anyway you get the picture.  

[Wookman]

In fairness that is properly expert and who amongst us is making that claim, not me for sure, even with 47 years of experience. 

[paul devereux]

On 06/06/2023 at 14:47, MattyB said:

If you really are able to fly most days (unless the weather p[revents you), then a single flight might be fine to keep your progression  ticking along. As per other posters though, it isn't the typical way beginners tend to learn. If flying less often (say once or twice a week) I'd suggest at least three flights a day initially, and as you become more confident and it is taking less mental energy you can up that further. Even if you do continue as you are, you should make sure you have at least three batteries available so that when conditions are good and you have time you can make the most of it.

I'm lucky enough to own 2 acres of pasture land I can use for now, but when our surviving horse crosses the Rainbow Bridge it'll be rented out. 

[paul devereux]

On 06/06/2023 at 11:46, Frank Skilbeck said:

Agree with Jon, also you need some structure to the learning, I usually aim to have the student comfortable with flying figure 8s and circuits at a constant height (and putting the model where they want it to be), then move onto flying approaches and go arounds, once confident on that move on to take offs and then landings.

I did a double-take when you suggested that take-offs and landings come after learning figure 8s and circuits, but then realised you were assuming an instructor. Solo learners have an advantage, in a way, of always having to practise them.

[Zflyer]

For solo learners i think 'practise makes confetti'

whilst tutored make jigsaws.......

[Graham Bowers]

My take on whether you should push yourself to do more is it depends on what you want to achieve. For example, say I can read a book in a week. I don't push myself to do more, because  I read for fun and pick it up when I wish.

 

With flying, as others have alluded, it requires a high level on concentration, and I'll admit  "brain fade" is mostly a limiting factor in how many flights I do in a day. If I try to push myself through brain fade, then I make mistakes that either risk the model or negate the purpose of the flight. So I listen to my brain and take breaks or pack up accordingly.

 

I'm working on my precision aerobatics and it's a steep learning curve for me, and I have specific objectives for each flight. But no steeper a learning curve for than a new flier learning the basics of the hobby.

 

Some days I put aerobatics to one side and fly another model to punch holes in the sky with no specific outcome in mind. In that case, task loading is reduced, brain fade is reduced and airtime goes up.

 

So, in my opinion, it really does depend what you want to achieve. Maybe you've had that conversation with yourself, and maybe not? Once you know what you want to achieve, plan your flights according to that, and take account of what your brain is telling you.

 

One possible thing to achieve is to be able to fly to meet the BMFA A test requirements. Or whatever the equivalent is in your country of residence. If I recall correctly, you are a lone flier, so may never receive coaching or do the test, but it may be a structural framework for you.

 

Or maybe getting the model down in one piece and punching a few holes in the sky is enough.

 

There are no right and wrong answers, in my opinion.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Graham Bowers

[Nigel R]

10 hours ago, Wookman said:

Malcom Gladwell recons it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at something

 

I heard it that the 10,000 hours are to make Olympic grade expert - and those 10,000 hours have to be effective and specific practice, with feedback, on skills that represent a sensible progression from where you are now. It's a tall order, really.

 

[Nigel R]

2 hours ago, paul devereux said:

Solo learners have an advantage, in a way, of always having to practise them.

 

Sure... now, once you're going up and down in one piece... then make your landings:

 

more accurate

deadstick

crosswind

"a bit more scale like"

do touch and goes

spot landing on a target

eliminate bouncing

touch tail wheel down first / roll along on the back wheels of your trike gear

sideslip the approach

do small landing circuits

do large realistic landing circuit

get a model with flaps or spoilers or brakes - and use them

take off, fly an entire circuit at head height, before landing on the same circuit

take off into immediately pulling a stall turn, exit stall turn into immediate landing

take off into a half loop, fly inverted past the strip, complete the loop and immediately land

 

just some ideas 🙂

[J D 8]

 Even having been rc flying since late 70's I nearly always do some figure of eights large and small to get a feel for the air and refresh positioning of the model in flight.

[Cuban8]

Thinking about landings and dealing with emergencies, I recall  that quite a few years ago, a 'ballistic recovery system' designed for model aircraft, was briefly marketed. The names PowerMax Merlin and a certain gentleman called Roy Lever come to mind. I think those of us who have been at this hobby for many years will remember the late Mr Lever as a bit of a character within modelling circles.

I do remember him being on quite a good modelling TV series hosted by Kevin Duala called Model Mania (why mania?) probably back in the 1990s where he explained how his fail-safe parachute recovery system operated.

Not really a practical method of saving out of control models given the size and weight of the models it was intended for, but I do wonder if something similar would be workable if used with todays' modern lightweight foamies?

Just a thought. BTW wasn't dear old RL a member of the Magic Circle? Would explain a lot.

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Cuban8

[leccyflyer]

Or maybe try a landing like this?

Still the coolest landing I've seen by a full size aeroplane.😎

 

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

Or maybe try a landing like this?

Still the coolest landing I've seen by a full size aeroplane.😎

 

 

I do that very landing approach occasionally to avoid the rugby posts that inhabit our fields landing area. In one wind direction it (or an adaption where a tight wingover replaces a split S) is  the safest way to land, as a circuit would give you 3 or 4 opportunites ot collide with a post!

Edited June 8, 2023 by MattyB