Where do you stand when taking off?

[extra slim]

Depends who is taking off, there are a few members, that when taking off, I stand behind our shed!!. And one, which I try to stand in the next county!! 🙂

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It used to be the norm at my club to take beginners onto the runway to learn take offs but I was uncomfortable about having people on the runway so tried teaching first take offs from the side.  Those pupils had no apparent difficulty and progressed at similar speed (maybe even faster) as others milling about on the runway for extended periods. 
 

Others started doing the same and we ended up making it standard practice.  While we don’t bar pilots - particularly those of advanced years who have done so for decades - from standing behind their models, we try to encourage them to get used to conducting their take offs from the pilot box and it is now very rare to see someone walking out to take off.  I was very pleased to see the introduction of taking off from the pilot box in the A test. 
 

I do many maidens each year and I have never felt the need to stand behind them (hand/catapult launch excepted) and in fact, I find it more important to be able to judge attitude better from the side.  Controlling direction is no more difficult than keeping straight on the landing roll. 

[Nick Cripps]

I fly waterplanes. I stand on the bank.

[GaryW]

Usually in the same field the planes in 

[John Stainforth]

In the UK this is surprisingly common, whereas in the US no-one is generally allowed onto or crossing the runway unless they are retrieving a plane, and then only after an acknowledged call-out; the pilot should be behind the flight line, which usually runs alongside the runway. It's an absolutely basic skill to learn to fly one's models from the side.

[GaryW]

Joking aside i usually stand in the pilots area unless im flying my Superfly which i always stand behind as its 3 channel and doesn't have steerable nose wheel,, and my scorpion as it is powered by a diesel engine and may need to slight push to get going when going up our patch as it has a very slight incline

[PDB]

I’ve only been flying a year and was taught from day one to take off from the pilots box at the side of the runway. Never been a problem and minimises the time you spend on the runway so for me feels safer and I’ve never seen anyone at my club take off standing behind a model.

[John Stainforth]

I think this standing behind or close to the model in the UK is a hangover from the early days of RC. Certainly when I started flying single channel models in the very early 1960's we stood very close to or behind the models for take-off. Once in the air, the standard practice then was to rotate one's body so that one was always facing more or less in the direction of flight of the model, so that we didn't have to think about reversing the direction of control when the plane was flying towards us. When I learnt to fly models again, properly, in the US in 2008, one of the first things my instructors told me was that I was moving around much too much. They taught me to stand with my legs quite far apart, absolutely square to the runway and not to move the lower body at all, and mainly just to turn one's head.

Edited August 2, 2023 by John Stainforth
typo

[Peter Jenkins]

Always to the side.  These days, including maiden flights.  I think it gives you a better appreciation of the model's speed. You need to have thought through the effect of wind and/or cross wind on the model during take off.  Applying rudder to prevent the aircraft being swung into wind is a good precaution to avoid the swing in the first place.  When I was learning to fly, the take off was always with me in the pilot's box.  I stood behind the first large aircraft when I flew the maiden (a Capiche 140) but soon learned that it was a pussy cat for both take off and landing.

 

For the A and B tests you are required to stand in the pilots box.  The words state "The pilot must stand in the designated pilot area for the entirety of the flying part of the test."  If pilots are flying in the Nationals then they must have a B certificate.  I imagine that the effort involved in building a competition winning scale model must severely restrict the amount of flying time that the pilot has with his machine.  Given the time and money invested in the machine I would imagine that the temptation to stand behind the model for take off must be quite high.  I am surprised though that this is allowed in competition.  I have never seen any pilot stand behind their model for any aerobatic competition and take offs and landings are marked in the two lower classes.  Admittedly, aerobatic models may be much easier to fly than scale models and I accept that some scale models may be difficult to control in the early stages of take off and extremely valuable to the owner as well.  I have 2 scale biplanes, a Jungmeister and a Stampe, and in neither case do I feel the need to stand behind them with one exception - the maiden for the Stampe and that was only because I could not get the OS120 to idle slow enough so had to walk out to the take off point with it and as soon as I released it, off it went! (the pump diaphragm was torn - now fixed and has a low idle (1,800 rpm) that allows the aircraft to be taxied out and then to remain stationary on the tarmac runway).

 

Perhaps I'm missing something but as you cannot stand behind your aircraft when it's flying why is it considered necessary to stand behind it for take off - excepting tricky scale models?

[Eric Robson]

With electric models always to the side, with ic if the grass is due a cut and is damp sometimes a little push is needed to get it moving. Generally someone will assist.

When I lived down South I flew off a disused Ww2 airfield where I would taxi the plane down wind and do scale take offs lifting off just before it passed by me, flying mainly scale models it always looked great.

[Jon H]

8 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

Perhaps I'm missing something but as you cannot stand behind your aircraft when it's flying why is it considered necessary to stand behind it for take off - excepting tricky scale models?

 

I do it/recommend it for maiden flights as the most important thing is to keep it straight. Too many times i have seen models (especially warbirds) make a crescent shaped takeoff run straight towards the side of the runway. They are then hauled off before they are ready to avoid hitting the weeds and the results are all too predictable. 

 

Either that or they weave a serpentine path down the runway which distracts the pilot with attempts to collect it up. He then forgets all about all of the other things and just wants it in the air, again with predictable results. 

 

Stood behind its far easier to keep the model straight. 

 

However. Many of these takeoff relates woes are down to less than stellar use of the most neglected of control surfaces. 

[Ernie]

I was taught to stand behind when I was learning, because it's easier, and then to move gradually to the side as I progressed so that I wasn't standing on the runway and risking an A&E visit

ernie

[leccyflyer]

From reading the thread I don't believe anyone is saying that it is necessary to stand behind the model for take off. Several posters have said that they do so for maiden flights and Jon has just stated good, sound reasons for the practice. I still think a large amount of where and how one stands is to do with the basic site configuration and not all club sites are the same. Folks are speaking about taxiways and pilot's boxes and my experience has been that there are a variety of site configurations and it has been shown recently in other threads that the practice of taxiing is a proper can of worms. 

 

Certainly at one of my club sites, taxiing would be a real challenge with anything larger than a diddy model, which probably wouldn't be able to taxi on the grass anyway. The small runway is separated from the "pits" and pilot "box" by grass deliberately kept longer, to act as a barrier stopping models from running off the runway. The in and out to the runway is a narrow pathway cut through this longer grass, perhaps just less than 1m wide.  The de facto operation involves placing the model on the runway, having carried it through one of the paths, then taking off in one of the two possible directions depending on wind, before retreating to the pilot's box 3m away. That's the site layout, which is necessary to fit the different operations into the small size of the land that we have to work with. It works well. I'm not seeing the difference between taking off stood behind the model, or adding an extra step of retreating to the pilot box before starting the take off run.  The runway is only 12m wide, so there's very little leeway for veering to the side. The club is 100% electric only.

 

My other main club site has a much larger mown area with three runways cut and it is possible, with care, to taxi to the end of the runways, though not with small models, largely due to the mossy surface - this is NE Scotland after all. I'd say that standard practice, as typically operated by the vast majority of the pilots is to take the model to the take off point, on the most suitable of the three runways, and then take off from there - retreating to the pilot box. I don't recall seeing anyone place the model on the far corner of the field, leave it there, then retreat to the pilot box. To clarify, there isn't a designated pilot box, as such, no barriers, safety fences or suchlike, it's the portion of the field where the pilots congregate, dependent on wind direction. For me communication is always the key thing and permission is always requested to take off, to go onto the runway with a model, or to retrieve a model. That sort of mode of operation would not have worked well in my previous club down in England, which was much busier and had much more rigid facilities and practices. The club is probably 90% plus electric, with a significant number of hand-launched models, especially gliders.

[leccyflyer]

The other factor, of course, is engine noise, which can be a significant barrier to good communication between pilots on the flight line, if there are multiple IC engines operating at the same time, when that communication is most critical.

[KenC]

38 minutes ago, Ernie said:

I was taught to stand behind when I was learning, because it's easier, and then to move gradually to the side as I progressed so that I wasn't standing on the runway and risking an A&E visit

ernie

What a sensible idea, a progressive and adaptable way to make the lesson suit the learner..... far rather see this sort of negotiated learning than a dictatorial regime. Everything I was taught about the learning process aimed at tailoring the situation to the individual, with the goal of offering them the most workable and personally suitable environment.   No one in the Tour de France has stabilisers !

[Cuban8]

Always from the pilots' box never from behind the model. Even on a test flight, I feel that I can deduce far more information about the model's overall behaviour, particularly an unexpected overly steep climb out when tracking across my vision, rather than away from me and getting effectively getting smaller with every yard. A slightly off track take off is easily coped with and a full on ground loop will be obvious and hence aborted immediately, whether one is behind, or to one side IMHO.

Each to their own of course, no right or wrong answer.

[John Lee]

1 hour ago, Eric Robson said:

When I lived down South I flew off a disused Ww2 airfield where I would taxi the plane down wind and do scale take offs lifting off just before it passed by me, flying mainly scale models it always looked great.

 

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

[GaryW]

As a former Club Instructor & BMFA Examiner myself.... when instructing/teaching people to fly in the past I wud have the student start by standing behind the model to make model orientation easier as it was rolling down the strip then progress to performing takeoff from the pilots box,, but majority of the time as it was the student doing the take off i wud let them choose where to stand that made them feel comfortable... nothing worse for an instructor than teaching a nervous nelly student flier

Edited August 3, 2023 by GaryWebb

[Ace]

Although we have a 65m circle we do stand in a pilots box infront of the pits, so the majority of takeoffs/landings are from the side which is not always at 90' depending on the wind direction. If the wind direction is head on we can stand behind for take offs but obviously not landing towards ourselves 🤔. Being a small club with 6 being a busy day we can vary take offs/landings up to 45' from the 90' providing everyone in the pits is given the heads up take off/landing call and acknowledges/watches with their score cards at the ready. Surface is good so majority taxi out except the odd marginally powered that may need a shove to break stiction but they must immediately return to the pilot box once airborne. Hand launched a safe distance from the pits in a 270' arc with return to the pilot box once launched.

I always teach from the side from day one and can't remember the last maiden I stood behind (except hand launched 😀)

[Geoff S]

37 minutes ago, John Lee said:

 

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

 

Not as I read it.  Eric is taking off at right angles to where he (and presumably other pilots) is standing.  In any case in your scenario, the pilot would be taking off towards anybody already flying - a definite no-no.  I do the same as Eric.  We don't have a fenced off area at either of our sites - just somewhere we all stand. If there aren't many of us we tend to take turns.  Having had a couple of mid-airs in the past I prefer the freedom of being a solo flyer.

 

Interesting that anyone taking the 'A' test is now expected/required to take off from the pilot box. I took mine in 1995 IIRC and I don't think it was a requirement then but I may have done it anyway.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

39 minutes ago, John Lee said:

 

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

Isn’t the alternative that the pilot is the only person in a “safe” position relative to his model?  The poor folk paying careful attention to their airborne models are the most exposed to a wayward model and I would suggest that the instinct for self-preservation makes it less likely that a takeoff attempt will be aborted too late if the pilot is with them!

 

Couple this with the more likely scenario of a miscommunication causing a collision between a flying model and the pilot out on the runway and I’m happy that operating from the pilot’s box whenever possible is the better option. 

[Jon H]

As a side note on the safety implications of walking onto an active runway i always request the sky to myself for a maiden flight. Not an unreasonable request i dont think and frankly i think everyone should be allowed the sky to themselves for the first flight. If you have an engine you can hear it, and even if you dont there are no worries about what everyone else is up to. The runway is always clear if you need it...etc. 

 

One other model i take off from behind is my P39 as it wont taxi. I have to wheel it into position and i take off from behind it to save the 20-30 seconds it takes to walk to the pilots box and free up the runway for others. 

 

39 minutes ago, John Lee said:

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

Why is the model pointing at you and why are you at full power? The model should track down the centreline of the runway so unless you are stood on the runway it should never be pointed at you. When it comes to power, dont just slap full throttle on. Wind up up slowly to get it going straight and then slowly add power with the aim to reach full power just as the model passes in front of you. This will vary model to model, but certainly warbirds do not respond well to having the throttle firewalled straight out of the gate. 

 

When it comes to warbirds i am with Eric on this one. Just taxiing out and turning around looks great on its own and then to get rolling and takeoff past yourself is excellent! 

[Peter Jenkins]

29 minutes ago, John Lee said:

 

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

I'd be interested to know why you are worried by the practice of taking off while standing in a pilot box.  Is it that you feel you don't have control of the aircraft and that you might allow a swing on take off to end with the model heading at you on full throttle.  Why can you not use rudder to maintain the runway heading and if the swing is too much, either way, just close the throttle?

I can understand the issue of a beginner learning to take off but once you have been cleared to fly unsupervised by your club you should be competent to take off standing in the pilot box.  

If you take a BMFA A Certificate test, you have stand in the pilot box at all times so that you hsve to taxi out to the take off point, turn into wind and take off maintaining the runway heading.  If pilots cannot do that or are unsafe doing that they should be helped so they lesrn how to do that.  After all, if when you are landing, you have to overshoot you are in a very similar position especially if you are practsing touch and go manoeuvres.

 

The biggest problem I observe at my Clubs on take off is that the pilot has not considered the effect of any cross wind kn the aircraft.  I asked one A Cert holder, whose first take off had ended up with a curved take off ending up 30 deg off runway heading, which direction the wind was going to make the model swing.  He got it wrong.  I explained that the aircraft was like a weather vane and as the take off started the nose would swing towards the direction from which the wind was blowing and so start with a little bit of rudder to counter this and adjust with more or less rudder having clear in his mind what he needs to do with the rudder to counter the swing into wind.  His next tske off, having refreshed his memory just before taking off was much better.  I told hom that once airborne he could return the rudder to neutral and the aircraft would then automatically respond to ots normal yaw stability and be in balanced flight.

I always go through the same process for every one of my take offs and it works.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

14 minutes ago, Peter Jenkins said:

If you take a BMFA A Certificate test, you have stand in the pilot box at all times so that you hsve to taxi out to the take off point, turn into wind and take off maintaining the runway heading. 

Maybe I’ve misinterpreted the requirements (I know you were a member of the ASRC at one time) but I would allow someone to position a model which couldn’t reasonably be taxied and return to the pilot’s box before taking off.  
 

Edit: The wording of the test documentation (my italics) seems to support this view:

 

The pilot must stand in the designated pilot area for the entirety of the flying part of the test. 

 (b)  Take off and complete a left (or right) hand circuit and overfly the take-off area. 

The model may be carried out to the take off position by the candidate or a helper or it may be taxied out from a safe position in front of the pits/pilots area. Taxiing out of the pits is an instant fail. Prior to carrying or taxiing out, the pilot should inform other pilots flying that his model is going out onto the active area.

Take off must be performed with the model a safe distance from the pilot box area and on a line which does not take the model towards the pits, other people or any other danger/no fly area. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Martin Harris - Moderator

[jrman]

This is from Mar 2023 AS guidance :

The model may be carried out to the take off position by the candidate or a helper or it may be taxied out from a safe position in front of the pits/pilot’s area. Taxiing out of the pits is an instant failure.