Enforcement of model flying regulations

[Peter Jenkins]

This is much better Paul.

 

[Jake Bullit]

Who will police the police?

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/oPK407TdJVY

Edited December 21, 2023 by Jake Bullit

[Cuban8]

11 hours ago, Arthur Harris said:

To my mind, this just highlights the dissimilarity between model aircraft flying and drone flying. Drone pilots use videos (for FPV or to publish); model plane flyers want to learn skills or try out planes they have built. Drones don't take (much) skill to fly, model planes take a lot. Drone flyers court publicity, we are content to just enjoy flying.

I've never flown a drone, so I am happy for someone to correct me, but I think their main purpose is to take videos of interesting things, whereas our main purpose is just to fly, with no specific goal.

 

I believe that the overwhelming majority of model flyers will agree with you. Most of us find drone technology intriguing and I guess that certain areas of drone tech can be of use in the model aircraft world but yes, the raison d'etre behind the motivation for flying/operating  model aircraft and drones (multi-rotors) is, I suggest very different.

Live and live though, certainly.

[Zflyer]

[nudge]

On 20/12/2023 at 23:08, Arthur Harris said:

Drone pilots use videos (for FPV or to publish); model plane flyers want to learn skills or try out planes they have built. Drones don't take (much) skill to fly, model planes take a lot. Drone flyers court publicity, we are content to just enjoy flying.

 

Why is this the default attitude of so many plane flyers. 

I fly fpv race / freestyle drones and would argue they take as much if not more skill to fly than a plane. 

We lost our flying site and have approached about 8 clubs within 40 miles here and most have basically said " oh my god, no we can't have drones here" as if they are some sort of plauge carrier. One was prepared to accept me only if  I also agreed to fly fixed wing and only one was progressive and friendly enough to accept my drones without issue.

I would fully agree dji style camera drones that can be flown by a child with no training can and indeed have helped give drones a bad name, and as for the "auditors" they are purely in it to get a reaction for views so would happily see rules tightened to stop these clowns but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally my new club were so friendly they are going to try and teach me fixed wing which I am going to give a go - may even buy one if I like it.

[Arthur Harris]

10 minutes ago, nudge said:

Why is this the default attitude of so many plane flyers. 

I fly fpv race / freestyle drones and would argue they take as much if not more skill to fly than a plane. 

We lost our flying site and have approached about 8 clubs within 40 miles here and most have basically said " oh my god, no we can't have drones here" as if they are some sort of plauge carrier. One was prepared to accept me only if  I also agreed to fly fixed wing and only one was progressive and friendly enough to accept my drones without issue.

I would fully agree dji style camera drones that can be flown by a child with no training can and indeed have helped give drones a bad name, and as for the "auditors" they are purely in it to get a reaction for views so would happily see rules tightened to stop these clowns but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally my new club were so friendly they are going to try and teach me fixed wing which I am going to give a go - may even buy one if I like it.

Welcome to the forum. Try flying fixed wing and see which is most skillful.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Welcome to the forum. Different skill sets but connected by flying for flying’s sake.  Hope you find somewhere soon. 

[Peter Jenkins]

18 minutes ago, nudge said:

Why is this the default attitude of so many plane flyers. 

I fly fpv race / freestyle drones and would argue they take as much if not more skill to fly than a plane. 

We lost our flying site and have approached about 8 clubs within 40 miles here and most have basically said " oh my god, no we can't have drones here" as if they are some sort of plauge carrier. One was prepared to accept me only if  I also agreed to fly fixed wing and only one was progressive and friendly enough to accept my drones without issue.

I would fully agree dji style camera drones that can be flown by a child with no training can and indeed have helped give drones a bad name, and as for the "auditors" they are purely in it to get a reaction for views so would happily see rules tightened to stop these clowns but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally my new club were so friendly they are going to try and teach me fixed wing which I am going to give a go - may even buy one if I like it.

Welcome Nudge.  I take my hat off to you for FPV racing as I think that with the need to fly through obstacles and avoid the ground is very definitely a high skill set.  For my part, what drives me is flying precision aerobatics in competition - another skill set that requires considerable effort to learn and score well.

Both are competitive sports that a lot of club pilots don't wish to touch with a barge pole.  A real pity.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

38 minutes ago, nudge said:

Why is this the default attitude of so many plane flyers. 

I fly fpv race / freestyle drones and would argue they take as much if not more skill to fly than a plane. 

We lost our flying site and have approached about 8 clubs within 40 miles here and most have basically said " oh my god, no we can't have drones here" as if they are some sort of plauge carrier. One was prepared to accept me only if  I also agreed to fly fixed wing and only one was progressive and friendly enough to accept my drones without issue.

I would fully agree dji style camera drones that can be flown by a child with no training can and indeed have helped give drones a bad name, and as for the "auditors" they are purely in it to get a reaction for views so would happily see rules tightened to stop these clowns but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally my new club were so friendly they are going to try and teach me fixed wing which I am going to give a go - may even buy one if I like it.

 

Lot of negative coverage on TV Nudge, people lashing out coz pressures on, and some if it ain't what I do then it must be easier. Plus a lot who've nothing against you, you just ain't met us yet.

Welcome to the forum.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Welcome aboard Nudge, I had the same problem flying FPV for years until the laws came out and our president is a Gendarme, that got me grounded till I let him use my goggle while I was flying, that even incited him to join me and another 4 club members to go into drone racing, that only lasted a couple of years way to difficult for most.

 We all share the same interest 'flying'.😇

[Doug Campbell]

I think the only solution to more onerous regulations is defiance. If we all refused to register with the CAA and comply they would have no choice but to renegotiate 

[leccyflyer]

8 hours ago, nudge said:

Why is this the default attitude of so many plane flyers. 

I fly fpv race / freestyle drones and would argue they take as much if not more skill to fly than a plane. 

We lost our flying site and have approached about 8 clubs within 40 miles here and most have basically said " oh my god, no we can't have drones here" as if they are some sort of plauge carrier. One was prepared to accept me only if  I also agreed to fly fixed wing and only one was progressive and friendly enough to accept my drones without issue.

I would fully agree dji style camera drones that can be flown by a child with no training can and indeed have helped give drones a bad name, and as for the "auditors" they are purely in it to get a reaction for views so would happily see rules tightened to stop these clowns but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Incidentally my new club were so friendly they are going to try and teach me fixed wing which I am going to give a go - may even buy one if I like it.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your new club.

 

You've just made the distinction yourself, which I personally feel is correct. What you are engaged in with your FPV racing is a flying sport, akin to 3D model car racing, where the aim is the competitive side of flying drones and it's about the flying. It's a somewhat different hobby to traditional model flying, but it is still all about the flying and requires great skill, reactions and tactics. It's also much more controlled and the possibility of conflict with other aircraft and uninvolved persons is minimal. That's borne out by it's differentiation in the Article 16 authorisation documents. So, for me, definitely a flying hobby and sport. More power to your elbow.

 

As you have identified, the vast majority of DJI style drones are all about the camera. The drone is a means to an end and the flying part is minimal, requires very little skill, or even interest in the actual flying. That has very little to do with model flying and it is those drones which have been implicit in a lot of bad publicity, which also gets model flying dragged into that bad publicity, especially in the mind of those who don't know any better.

[Learner]

31 minutes ago, Doug Campbell said:

I think the only solution to more onerous regulations is defiance. If we all refused to register with the CAA and comply they would have no choice but to renegotiate 

Good idea! I can see it now, a few old boys with banners at Downing street threatening to bring the country to a standstill if the caa dont leave us alone.

Nothings changed in wales even with the outrage over the 20mph speed limit, same in London over ulez, its all still happening!

Do you really think the Caa would have "no choice but to renegotiate" if we rebelled.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Learner

[GrumpyGnome]

5 hours ago, Doug Campbell said:

I think the only solution to more onerous regulations is defiance. If we all refused to register with the CAA and comply they would have no choice but to renegotiate 

I assume your tongue is firmly in your cheek at this point.......

[EvilC57]

5 hours ago, Learner said:

Good idea! I can see it now, a few old boys with banners at Downing street threatening to bring the country to a standstill if the caa dont leave us alone.

Nothings changed in wales even with the outrage over the 20mph speed limit, same in London over ulez, its all still happening!

Do you really think the Caa would have "no choice but to renegotiate" if we rebelled.

Because we’re British, we just put up and shut up 🤫.

[Don Fry]

I’ve got a 2m +Ugli stick. Can join the bomber, ground clearance squadron. Good payload. Vive la révolution. La victoire  ou la mort!

[Arthur Harris]

15 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your new club.

 

You've just made the distinction yourself, which I personally feel is correct. What you are engaged in with your FPV racing is a flying sport, akin to 3D model car racing, where the aim is the competitive side of flying drones and it's about the flying. It's a somewhat different hobby to traditional model flying, but it is still all about the flying and requires great skill, reactions and tactics. It's also much more controlled and the possibility of conflict with other aircraft and uninvolved persons is minimal. That's borne out by it's differentiation in the Article 16 authorisation documents. So, for me, definitely a flying hobby and sport. More power to your elbow.

 

As you have identified, the vast majority of DJI style drones are all about the camera. The drone is a means to an end and the flying part is minimal, requires very little skill, or even interest in the actual flying. That has very little to do with model flying and it is those drones which have been implicit in a lot of bad publicity, which also gets model flying dragged into that bad publicity, especially in the mind of those who don't know any better.

FPV drone flyers fly out of the line of sight, sometimes many kilometers from where they are. It is not the same as someone flying a fixed wing within a hundred or so radius around a landing strip.

Drones will be the death of traditional model flying.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Arthur Harris

[Arthur Harris]

23 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Welcome to the forum. Different skill sets but connected by flying for flying’s sake.  Hope you find somewhere soon. 

 

22 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

 

Lot of negative coverage on TV Nudge, people lashing out coz pressures on, and some if it ain't what I do then it must be easier. Plus a lot who've nothing against you, you just ain't met us yet.

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome, yes, but FPV drones will be the end of traditional model flying, imo. They fly out of the line of sight, the aim is to make videos to publish online- drone flying has nothing to do with model flying! It is more akin to Twitch gaming. 

I really, really think we need to disassociate ourselves with drones.

[leccyflyer]

8 minutes ago, Arthur Harris said:

FPV drone flyers fly out of the line of sight, sometimes many kilometers from where they are. It is not the same as someone flying a fixed wing within a hundred or so radius around a landing strip.

Drones will be the death of traditional model flying.

Don't know why you've quoted my post - which was talking about FPV drone racing, which is conducted in a small controlled area and certainly not kilometres from where the remote pilots are located. Not the same thing as long range FPV at all.

[Arthur Harris]

3 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Don't know why you've quoted my post - which was talking about FPV drone racing, which is conducted in a small controlled area and certainly not kilometres from where the remote pilots are located. Not the same thing as long range FPV at all.

Sorry, yes you are right. I think I am referring to drone flying as a discipline, which I think is completely at odds with model plane flying. Different aims, different skills. Welcoming drone flying into model plane flying is like welcoming a Trojan horse. We like building, flying, and, in a sense, contemplating flight. They like the end product- FPV, fast flying, publishing on the internet in competitions. Chalk and cheese.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Go to any club field, Arthur and you’ll see probably at least 90% of flyers using ARTF models.  Some of those will also build traditionally and there may be the odd diehard that refuses to have anything to do with them.  Not so different to buying a drone really. 
 

Many will fly fast or tricky models, some will enjoy competitive flying and a good number will just potter round the circuit throwing in the odd loop.  The drone racer combines the first two in a slightly different form but I do agree that Fred Bloggs with a camera drone filming the local beauty spots has little relevance to model flying. 
 

Operated legally, FPV drones are not flown out of line of sight and operation from a model flying site should have no impact on a club, should a member wish to operate one. 

[Simon Chaddock]

After reading through much of the CAA's consultation document I was surprised to see how much concentration there was on control line and RTP flying.

On the face of it a tethered plane can have little or no impact on the altitude and distance concerns compared to free RC flying. Obviously there are safety issues due to the speed and the relative closeness of the plane to the ground but the danger area is relatively small & well defined. 

I got the feeling the CAA have a concern about such tethered flying that is not that obvious to me at least.   

[Peter Jenkins]

1 hour ago, Arthur Harris said:

Sorry, yes you are right. I think I am referring to drone flying as a discipline, which I think is completely at odds with model plane flying. Different aims, different skills. Welcoming drone flying into model plane flying is like welcoming a Trojan horse. We like building, flying, and, in a sense, contemplating flight. They like the end product- FPV, fast flying, publishing on the internet in competitions. Chalk and cheese.

Arthur, I really think you are conflating a lot of different things with a view to blaming drone flyers unfairly.  I fly a type of aircraft that could be described as being a million miles away from standard club flying.  Should I be constrained?

I fly an ARTF 2 mtr competition standard aerobatic aircraft.  A small number of pilots build their own 2 mtr aircraft and fewer still design, build and compete.  I fly competitively and I quite like to watch videos posted on YT that show people flying the schedule I fly.  I also attach a key chain camera to my aircraft so that I can view the video off line to check for how well I have wings level, point rolls are correct, how much I'm drifting in or out from the desired line and so on.

 

We regularly fly at heights up to 1,000 ft, occasionally higher.

 

Should we be criticised as drone flyers as we predominantly use ARTFs even though the same ARTFs are flown in international competitions?

[Arthur Harris]

5 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

Arthur, I really think you are conflating a lot of different things with a view to blaming drone flyers unfairly.  I fly a type of aircraft that could be described as being a million miles away from standard club flying.  Should I be constrained?

Probably, tbh. We are being sold out by the BMFA. Why do they need to "consult" us again with another questionnaire? They already know what we want- things to stay the same, or better still, go back to before we needed to pay CAA fees and register our "drones". I know what they want- another years subs.

People like yourself and drone flyers- yes, maybe you need to be registered with the CAA- but the average model flyer, who flies within a few hundred metres of a club airfield doesn't. We are not obstructing anyone.

What are the authorities going to do anyway, if we continue to fly model planes? They don't have prison place for rapists, they are not going to jail model fliers are they?

[GrumpyGnome]

Arthur, there's quite a bit to unpick there....

 

The CAS are consulting, not the BMFA. These are completely different organisations, with completely different aims. The BMFA are working hard to protect us from the CAA restrictions.

 

Why do you think Peter should be constrained? Because he flies higher than you do? What about glider fliers - they commonly fly at significant heights.... ehat about pylon racers? They fly much faster and carry much more energy.... shoulf they be constrained?

 

Have you considered people who fly slope soarers? They typically are not on 'club sites'. 

 

Yes, there is a world of difference between someone who uses a multi-rotor simply as a means to capture film/photographs and someone who flies for the enjoyment/challenge of flight itself. But, they are competing for the same airspace as, apoarently, the likes of Amazon. 

 

We have what is considered a niche hobby - we need to stick together to reach a workable solution for all.