Who is legally responsible in a model flying club ?

[toto]

We have the same situation our club. East Fortune aeromodellers.

 

Our runway is used as a motorcycle race track on certain days ..... we are not permitted to fly when the track is being used and I can understand why. 

 

Madness to have both running at the same time.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

I agree.

 

Sadly we live in times when personal privilege and freedom override common sense, and consideration for others.....

[GaryW]

19 minutes ago, Rocker said:

So these selfish members are going to lose us the field .It is a no win situation for the committee 

 

 

If the clus rules are NO FLYING while karting is going on then thats the club rules and members should adhere to the rules at all times and they cannot or shud I say should not feel they have the right to ignore them as they see fit,,, Nor can they over rule the committee..... What they can do is ask for the rules to be chaged either at the AGM at the end of the club year or  ask for an EGM to be called which it will then be put to a club vote which if the club as a whole decide to keep the rules as they are including any/all no flying at stated times then the rebelious members basicly have 2 choices,,,, Accept the club rules as they are and follow them or go find another club or failing that face the the consiquences of breaking the rules and being kicked out the club specially when it comes to the safety of others

 

A blunt answer im sure but a correct one i feel

 

 

Edited April 16 by GaryW

[Rocker]

Have a reply from the BMFA and Andy was a great help .It is going to be sorted now .The Flying Club Committee are on safety grounds going to enforce no flying on Kart racing days and thosee members that do not like that will be told maybe they should find a different club to fly at 

We might lose a few members but at least we will still have a flying club 

[GaryW]

Also I was a member of a club that shared land with an airsoft club and a clay pidgeon shooting club and the clubs Rules was no flying umtill the other 2 clubs had finished at 2pm.. & all memebrs had to obey that rule and NO exception were ever made or permitted if they broke the rules they wud receive  2 official warnings 1 verbal 1 written then subsequent club dismissal

Edited April 16 by GaryW

[Bruce Collinson]

50 minutes ago, Rocker said:

We will lose 

The Kart Club have said if we fly over the race track while they are racing. They will contact the farmer who owns our field and the farmer has already said if that happens .We are history .So these selfish members are going to lose us the field .It is a no win situation for the committee 

And check the terms of your lease/license.

[Rocker]

Think that is the route we will have to go down.Trying to please everyone does not work .I have emailed every members saying if we fly on kart racing days we will lose the flying field 

Most member now realise.that now and are coming round that it is better to lose 10 weekends a year then 52 weekends a year A few member are still insisting they want to fly on kart racing weekends but they will be told to find a different club to fly at

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Do what's right Rocker, if some don't have the clubs best interest first, they're not worth having.

[GaryW]

4 minutes ago, Rocker said:

A few member are still insisting they want to fly on kart racing weekends but they will be told to find a different club to fly at

 

Point out to them they MUST obey and follow the Culbs Rules no matter what they feel or want which like many clubs they agree to when joining a club and they cannot break them all becauxse they disagree with the comittee & other members........ I've seen this happen in a few clubs even to the point the committe/club had no other choice but to refuse further membership to those relelious ones when it came rounf to Memeber ship Renewal at the end of the year and in worse cases a few were dismissed instantly

[Zflyer]

If uou really want to enforce the club rules make it plain you are quite happy to let BMFA insurers aware of the disregard should any incident occur. I would also alert the errant members that theybmaybr liable personally even if insurers pay out part of the claim

[Brian Cooper]

It really is quite simple, regardless of whatever the belligerent "Grumpy Brigade" might want or say, we are governed by common sense and the law. 

Okay, Common Sense isn't that common anymore but the law is clear.

 

1).  You are responsible for flying your model aircraft in a safe manner.

 

2). Article 241 - Endangering safety of any person or property. A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property.

 

Simply flying over the Karts will be enough to be breaking the law. 

[Bruce Collinson]

I believe there should be a distinction between the behaviour of individuals and the responsibility of the club. The legislation is clearly set out in terms of proximity etc and overflying karts may well leave the individual pilots outside the law; the club, on the other hand, has a degree of collective responsibility under the common law, probably the lease and BMFA requirements.   That is why I consider that collective responsibility will rest with the elected officers of the club.   It might be able to deflect some liability onto individual pilots but it won't be able avoid it entirely unless it acts in a timely and proportionate manner, in accordance with its constitution.

 

BTC 

[Rocker]

Thanks everyone .You have all been a great help.It is quite clear what has to be done.The club rule will be enforcing the rule 

If those who want to change the rule will either except the club rule or leave the club.Of course the other option is to stand for a committee position but like most clubs   they quick to moan but will not want the hassle of going on the committe and doing something to help the club instead they just think of them self and no one else

[Cuban8]

This is so clear cut, I'm surprised that anyone would consider disregarding an obvious safety issue and one that could have the club thrown off the site if ignored.

By your own description, models are at risk of overflying the Kart racers so that's that, no arguments, no grey area, no discussion............no flying on days that the Kart track is in use.....simples.

My club sends an annual email calender to all members stating no-fly days when the field is CLOSED and another reminder to members a few days before the field is to be used by others and that the field will be CLOSED. Sometimes we get extra days because events are cancelled! System works well for us.

Edited April 17 by Cuban8

[GaryW]

15 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

This is so clear cut, I'm surprised that anyone would consider disregarding an obvious safety issue and one that could have the club thrown off the site if ignored.

By your own description, models are at risk of overflying the Kart racers so that's that, no arguments, no grey area, no discussion............no flying on days that the Kart track is in use.....simples.

My club sends an annual email calender to all members stating no-fly days when the field is CLOSED and another reminder to members a few days before the field is to be used by others and that the field will be CLOSED. Sometimes we get extra days because events are cancelled! System works well for us.

 

Cudnt agree more...... When it's a matter of safety theres no 2 ways about it.. ALL Members follow the rules or anyone that doesnt or wont follow the rules then they don't fly... It really is that simple

Edited April 17 by GaryW

[Cuban8]

15 hours ago, GaryW said:

Also I was a member of a club that shared land with an airsoft club and a clay pidgeon shooting club and the clubs Rules was no flying umtill the other 2 clubs had finished at 2pm.. & all memebrs had to obey that rule and NO exception were ever made or permitted if they broke the rules they wud receive  2 official warnings 1 verbal 1 written then subsequent club dismissal

Thankfully, in the many years that I've been a member of various clubs, and during the past few decades where I've been privileged to help run clubs in various capacities, I've only known ONE case of a member being stripped of membership and removed from the club because of a very serious breach of club discipline. A number folks who disagreed with how things were being run, or that they didn't get their way in a democratic vote on an issue and they walked away, but only ONE individual who was actually sacked.

Thankfully, most people are reasonable, and although it might ruffle a few feathers when decisions go against a minority view of something or the other, usually it's a storm in a teacup and things settle back down and are forgotten.

Interestingly, some years ago, a proposal to change a certain way in which our club operated was put forward at our AGM,, and was on the face of it, agreed by all those present. One member disagreed and put up a very compelling case why the proposed change was not actually in the best interests of the club - it got us all thinking and the proposal was dropped.

[Engine Doctor]

Could the problem not be simply overcome by flying with the karts behind your flightline and a suitable distance between them and you creating a NFZ ? Obviously not being able to see the site there may be other obstacles .

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Whether or not deliberate overflight is barred, the consequences of an inadvertent transgression seem so serious in this case - the club has been told that any overflight will result in the loss of the field - that surely, any logical conclusion is that flying cannot take place on those days.

 

The danger here is that the sensible members will be in their workshops on these days and not at the field to regulate any reckless activity by rogue members.  I would suggest contacting the karting club and making it clear that should anyone attempt to fly during their meetings, it is directly contrary to club rules, the members involved will be dismissed from the club and you will support action against them for any contravention of the ANO.  The karting club could easily take photos to identify any transgressors.

[leccyflyer]

I would stop short of that advice to encourage the karting club to take photographs to identify any transgressors, these days it would be very easy indeed to spoof a photograph, or just change the date on which it appears a photograph was taken and you would be playing into the hands of anyone who wanted to have the site to themselves, without any model flying activities. It ought to be enough for the club to put measures in place to prevent members from flying on the days that the kart track is in operation and to let the karters know than, but I think it would be dangerous to give them ideas and make statements about contravention of the ANO.

[Cuban8]

We're nearly all walking on eggshells now when it comes to our flying sites. Some awkward land owners, the maximum fuss made over the least bit of noise, or even the very sight of models being flown is enough to get some people up on their high horses and the complaint letters and emails going in.

We just can't take any chances these days and I'm afraid that most clubs need to remain as invisible as possible and care taken when publicising their activities, as we are often encouraged to do,  to boost membership etc. 

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Our relationship with our landlord, Doncaster Council  has been faultless, I think it's over 40 years we've been there, every request we've made, night flying, camping, help via funding has been granted, couldn't have wished for better.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Well, as Andy Symons liked your email Leccy, perhaps my advice wasn’t too good and suggesting pre-arming the kart racers with knowledge of the ANO might well be a step too far. 
 

What I would still suggest is talking with the kart club to impress on them how seriously the club takes the matter and confirm that members have been instructed not to fly while the race meeting is taking place.
 

Perhaps give them contact details for the committee in case anyone should turn up to fly - member or other.  Surely working with them is better than reacting to a disastrous situation. 

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Personally I would keep the noise down, seems relationship between the two site users is fine, club made it's position clear it takes safety serious.

[Cuban8]

1 hour ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Our relationship with our landlord, Doncaster Council  has been faultless, I think it's over 40 years we've been there, every request we've made, night flying, camping, help via funding has been granted, couldn't have wished for better.

That's great - long may it continue.

My club used to rent a field some years ago where the farmer was a real Jekyll and Hyde character. He'd sometimes go mental if the patch was not not cut to his satisfaction, he'd swear blind that we were cheating him and making the flying area bigger without his say so (we weren't and were paranoid about getting the measurements right). I think he chucked us off a couple of times and then reconsidered after we went back to him cap in hand.

Cars not parked in a particular way (perfectly happy with them the previous week), he'd drive over the patch in his landrover when we were flying and scowl at us, then next week, park to one side and have a cheery chat. Witnessed him myself go absolutely mental at a bloke who wandered over to us flying, just to have a chat and see what was going on. He'd never accept a rise in the rent we paid either, about a grand or so  - many, many stories I could recount.

Really used to put us on edge when we knew he was around - we put up with each other for over thirty years though.

I laughed at Larry the Farmer in the brilliant Detectorists series, very similar, ("don't go digging in the bottom field, I don't want you there") athough our chap was way more intense and just plain unpleasant at times.

If you've got a good landlord - cherish him!

[JOHN MOSLEY 2]

Having lived with a farmer (my father) for 25 years , the reason they can be so variable is the weather, price of produce etc. , and often working on there own a lot. Glad I went into engineering , it took the Weather element out the equation. Don't forget suicide in the farming community is high, in the circle of my fathers contacts two committed suicide.  When they want to talk, spend time listening and express sympathy, is the best policy.