Electric Cars.

[Ace]

 

3 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

He can promise all he likes for 27 years ahead, he won't be around to answer for the failure.

That's the nub of the issues in British politics - They ALL only have to think how to get re-elected in 4 yrs time so no major long term plans are important  today, they just need to sound as though they care.

[Zflyer]

Matty I love your passion, and when we had an empire (note no capital e) maybe we could have done a lot more with easing the issue. But as a small country with limited resources, capability and influence our contribution or lack of won't make a great deal of difference. 

That doesn't mean I am not for trying but as stated by John every country has too come together. League of Nations??, now United Nations and we still have wars.

Constructive dialogue, reasoned debate practical affordable solutions, and affordable isnt just about money. Revolutions don't do it either.

We all have a part to play, but until there is true debate not a lot will change.

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I’ve refrained from much comment on this thread lately but I suppose I ought to declare my hand.  After being rather sceptical about the practicalities of electric motoring, I suffered a major engine failure towards the end of last year. 

 

It’s maybe a little unusual in this day and age but I’ve only ever had work done by “the trade” on my cars and motorcycles under warranty or to maintain warranty conditions - and I’ve been singularly unimpressed by the quality of so called expert main dealers work and product knowledge.  Over the decades, I’ve tackled virtually all aspects of normal servicing/repairs (I’ve never had to rebuild a differential) including engine/gearbox overhauls and chassis welding so I’ve built up a reasonable general capability. 

 

Although 11 years old, my car was otherwise very sound but having removed the head and discovered extensive damage to it plus major damage to the block and a piston, repair of the engine was not an option.  I wasn’t in a desperate rush as my wife made her car available on flying days so I started considering my options. 

 

During the strip down, I’d become aware of just how many extraneous sensors and devices had been added to make the diesel car a paragon of cleanliness (according to the parameters of the day) and my thoughts turned to replacement - I’d just come into some money from a very sad loss. 

 

Petrol or diesel?  Logic suggested petrol but both would be laden with fault prone sensors and emission control equipment which even the professionals find hard to diagnose/repair with diagnostic tools far more advanced than my DIY equipment.  How many petrol stations will survive the next decade?  Pure or hybrid?  It seems slightly illogical to carry a petrol engine and battery with the weight penalty and maintenance commitment.  

 

I find it hard to believe but I’ve suddenly found myself in my late 60s (although I’m sure there’s been a mathematical error) and I can imagine that in a few years time as a car ages, I’ll be less inclined to undertake heavy work.  I’ve never been one to trade in a car after a few years so I’d expect maybe 15 years or more of ownership to defray capital costs. 

 

So, horror of horrors, my thoughts turned to electric power.  The MG5 seemed an attractive prospect with @ 250 mile range at (for electric) reasonable cost and decent performance.  Never having driven an electric car, I arranged a test drive and was handed a zero mile demonstrator and invited to go and play with it!  To say it was a revelation was an understatement and I was instantly entranced by its effortless performance and the overall driving experience. 

 

After some consideration of the practicalities, I realised that it would be quite suitable for my usage profile to charge from a simple 13A socket and made the commitment.  There’s a small element of planning involved but only once have I been caught out by a sudden request to drive beyond the currently charged range - it would have been surmountable by a fast charge en route but it was easier to use my wife’s car.  Maybe I’ll consider faster/smarter charging in the future but with my current low mileage it would take a long time to recover the investment. 

 

Most of my driving is within a 60 mile radius but I have done one trip from Herts/Beds to the far side of the Long Mynd.  I planned a partial top-up at Telford to give me a good reserve on arrival which gave us time for a sandwich and a drink. 

 

The AirBnB which we stayed at was happy to provide a 13A socket for use over the weekend for cost at standard rates and I did the return trip from not completely topped up via some diversions to visit family without needing to consider charging. 

 

So, no regrets, no excessive demands on infrastructure and, like others have observed, a far more relaxing and less tedious drive - particularly in traffic. 

 

For balance, it’s not my only green vehicle and I have a foot in both camps - last year I completed the (very) long term project to return my 1955 Land-Rover to roadworthiness after a complete strip down and renovation so I have a choice of vehicles to use at no additional cost in any ULEZ.  Did I mention my reluctance to sell my cars - I bought the Landy in 1979!

 

What happened to the Astra?  I came across an engine at a good price, fitted it (that was a very long story and reinforced my decision) and passed it on to my Son in Law who loves it!

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

And here I am waiting for my Wife to get up for breakfast wading through you posting thinking what's wrong with replacing the Astra's engine, it seemed the most sensible thing, and finally I got to the end,,,😇

 

It's amazing what a couple of slices of bio toast and milk coffee can do to the brain, 😄 so no brushless motor controller and lipo under the Astra's bonnet, what would a proper electric conversion cost, and would it be worth it ?.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Paul De Tourtoulon
after breakfast.

[Cuban8]

18 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Spot on Matty.  I paid £57k for my Tesla Model 3 Performance in September, 2020.  I never dreamed I would spend that much on a car.  But the money was losing value in a savings account and I'm 68 years old, so why not spend it?  Similarly, we bought solar panels and battery 18 months ago with another £10k of money that was likewise just losing value in real terms.  We earn it, we do what we like with it - each to their own. 

Absolutely. A close friend of mine died suddenly quite recently and he had failed to protect his assets as fully as he should have. His estate has contributed to the government to the tune of a VERY considerable sum of money in inheritence tax. A warning to us all who are fortunate enough to not be surviving on a hand to mouth or even a modest average existence. Use it or lose it, in my friend's case after a lifetime of careful and successful investing - inevitable events simply caught him out a bit before they should have.

Personally, I'd never spend that much of our nest egg on a car - any car - I simply don't think they're worth that sort of money, but that is a straighforward value decision down to the individual and of no concern to anyone else. I spent quite a tidy sum on a nearly new Triumph motor cycle a while back. It gives me much pleasure just to own it quite without the riding experience. My dosh, my choice.

I came across a a parlimentary debate on TV this morning about EVs and the future of the UK industry. Not very well attended by MPs, which says a lot.

 

[MattyB]

13 hours ago, Ace said:

That's the nub of the issues in British politics - They ALL only have to think how to get re-elected in 4 yrs time so no major long term plans are important  today, they just need to sound as though they care.

 

Unfortunately that's not just here, it's typical of almost every political system globally (and those that are different probably aren't systems we'd want either!). In reality the political systems of the world just aren't set up to tackle a problem like this that is going to take decades of work and dedication to a strategy to bear fruit.

Edited September 22, 2023 by MattyB

[Ron Gray]

@Cuban8funnily enough we find ourselves in a similar situation, my wife’s aunt died earlier on this year and being someone who refused to pay for most things ‘official’ (government, council, solicitors etc) she left no will and sizeable investments which will result in those same bodies receiving huge amounts of her estate! That was the final straw to me getting an EV, you can’t take it with you!

[Cuban8]

As one of the executors of my late friend's estate, I've learned a very important lesson regarding the mangement of one's even quite modest assets, considering the very low inheritence tax threshold as it stands at the moment. The value of my friend's property put his assets directly into the inheritence tax grab of 40%. I won't go into details but the taxman had enough from him to buy several very nice and expensive EVs!

On the parlimentary debate that I mentioned......although not very well attended, I was surprised at what I regarded as a quite sensible and pragmatic approach to EVs, IC vehicles and so called 'green issues' from a few MPs. A refreshing change from the "do as we say or else " attitude from those who can afford all the new 'green' paraphernalia without a problem.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cuban8

[John Stainforth]

58 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

As one of the executors of my late friend's estate, I've learned a very important lesson regarding the mangement of one's even quite modest assets, considering the very low inheritence tax threshold as it stands at the moment....

 

 

The IHT threshold is actually quite high at the moment, potentially up to 1 million pounds (combined Nil Rate Band and Residence Nil Rate Band for a married couple leaving their estate to their direct descendents).

[MattyB]

38 minutes ago, John Stainforth said:

The IHT threshold is actually quite high at the moment, potentially up to 1 million pounds (combined Nil Rate Band and Residence Nil Rate Band for a married couple leaving their estate to their direct descendents).

 

True, but given how much property has risen in desirable areas such as London, the home counties and South-West, it is still relatively easy to get caught by it. That's why pensions are so important, as money in there is not viewed as part of the estate, and can be passed on without an IHT bill.

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

@Cuban8funnily enough we find ourselves in a similar situation, my wife’s aunt died earlier on this year and being someone who refused to pay for most things ‘official’ (government, council, solicitors etc) she left no will and sizeable investments which will result in those same bodies receiving huge amounts of her estate! That was the final straw to me getting an EV, you can’t take it with you!

 

1 hour ago, Cuban8 said:

As one of the executors of my late friend's estate, I've learned a very important lesson regarding the management of one's even quite modest assets, considering the very low inheritance tax threshold as it stands at the moment. The value of my friend's property put his assets directly into the inheritance tax grab of 40%. I won't go into details but the taxman had enough from him to buy several very nice and expensive EVs!

 

Yep, couldn't agree more. Take professional financial advice to help plan how your estate is passed on, make a will and set up your powers of attorney - you won't be alive to see the benefits, but your descendants and beneficiaries will certainly thank you for it!

Edited September 22, 2023 by MattyB

[dave parnham]

3 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

3 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

That was the final straw to me getting an EV, you can’t take it with you!

Ron Can you get your Larger models in your new EV easily? Like the hangar9 D7?? 

i drive an EV van for work (pug Partner) and have been thinking about the change, but reluctant to get rid of a good Mondeo Estate.

 

[MattyB]

15 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

After some consideration of the practicalities, I realised that it would be quite suitable for my usage profile to charge from a simple 13A socket and made the commitment.  There’s a small element of planning involved but only once have I been caught out by a sudden request to drive beyond the currently charged range - it would have been surmountable by a fast charge en route but it was easier to use my wife’s car.  Maybe I’ll consider faster/smarter charging in the future but with my current low mileage it would take a long time to recover the investment. 

 

Whilst you have two cars you can probably get by this way, but I would suggest you get a home charger eventually - I just looked it up, and it looks like your MG5 (which we loved when we test drove one) would take a whole day to fully charge from a 3-pin plug, meaning it is very hard for you to make best use of a time of use tariff.

 

Yes, the charger will cost an initial £750-1000, but if you can use something like Octopus Intelligent you will only be charging at 7.5p/kwh. If we assume you are paying something like 25p/kwh now to charge, the cost of the charger gets absorbed after somewhere between 15-20k miles of driving if your car averages something like 3.5 miles/kwh. You could also hire out that charger via something like Co-charger and make money from it when not charging, at which point that break even point would get closer:

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by MattyB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Interesting figures Matty.  I have to admit that I haven’t costed it out in any detail. In practice, I give it an overnight blip when it drops below 50% so that’s about 9 hours to 80%.  My annual mileage is unlikely to exceed 6000 so with a slightly better miles/kWh figure it’s looking like maybe a 3-4 year payback period which is better than my assumption. 
 

I also have to admit to a healthy dose of scepticism about having a smart meter which I understand is integral with these off peak schemes but I am an existing Octopus customer.  Funnily enough, I was perusing their plans earlier today but was astounded by the number of variations. 

[J D 8]

16 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I

 

 

 

 

 

 

For balance, it’s not my only green vehicle and I have a foot in both camps - last year I completed the (very) long term project to return my 1955 Land-Rover to roadworthiness after a complete strip down and renovation so I have a choice of vehicles to use at no additional cost in any ULEZ.  Did I mention my reluctance to sell my cars - I bought the Landy in 1979!

 

 

 Good to hear your 1955 Landy is on the road again, my 63 is still some way off. Been busy fixing my 1972 tractor.[owned from new] My main vehicle for the last thirty years is my 1990 Land Rover Ninety  and I will argue such trucks as our's are as "green" as any, after all the carbon released in their construction went into the atmosphere a long time ago.

[Ron Gray]

2 hours ago, dave parnham said:

 

There is more room in my Ioniq 5 than I had in the Toyota Corolla Sports Touring (estate)! I can easily get both the YT Mustang and Hurricane in with room to spare and both have one piece wings (the Hurricane’s is 83” long). Don’t yet know about the Fokker DVII as I haven’t got mine yet!

[MattyB]

43 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Interesting figures Matty.  I have to admit that I haven’t costed it out in any detail. In practice, I give it an overnight blip when it drops below 50% so that’s about 9 hours to 80%.  My annual mileage is unlikely to exceed 6000 so with a slightly better miles/kWh figure it’s looking like maybe a 3-4 year payback period which is better than my assumption. 
 

I also have to admit to a healthy dose of scepticism about having a smart meter which I understand is integral with these off peak schemes but I am an existing Octopus customer.  Funnily enough, I was perusing their plans earlier today but was astounded by the number of variations. 

 

Yes, you need a smart meter for any smart tariff to work, so by not having one you are baking in costs that you don't need to meet. As an information security professional I am really not sure why so many people seem to be worried by them - I can assure you that there are many, many more invasive technologies that most of us are using every day, and (for me) the advantages (most obviously financial) of having one far outweigh the disadvantages. 

 

PS - Remember whatever miles/kwh you have been getting up to this point in the summer months, that will dip as we go into colder weather. Estimated real world ranges here - by my maths that ~175 mile cold weather combined range is about 3 miles/kwh, so averaging 3.5 miles/kwh over the year is probably a decent estimate...

 

https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1474/MG-MG5-EV-Long-Range

Edited September 22, 2023 by MattyB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

My prejudice probably originated from being warned against them by an electrician friend who’d known of many fires - probably due to less than expert installation practice - caused by them.  There’s also the rather more vague threat of selective control of power supply in the future but I do understand the advantages. 
 

John - we seem to be kindred spirits…it’s not long since I was replacing a broken oil pump on our club’s Massey Ferguson 135. 

[IDD15]

On 21/09/2023 at 08:52, Brian Cooper said:

The thing which truly concerns me about 100% electric cars is their vulnerability to a lack of electricity. 

 

As the numbers of electric vehicles increases, the demands on the power stations will become untenable. 

We already have the ludicrous situation where the underground cabling cannot cope with more than three cars being fast-charged in a street if charging at home. 

 

And it is clearly evident that the infrastructure is not yet established away from home. . . I have witnessed long queues of cars waiting for their turn at recharging stations, and they can be waiting for hours. 

 

As stated at the start, they are vulnerable.  Any power cut, for whatever reason, leaves the car devoid of power.  

You may find the following video allays your fears somewhat re our electricity grid melting down. Given the video is 2 years old and further capacity (wind, solar and interconnectors) has come online since then I think you will agree the numbers are moving in the right direction. JW's delivery is perhaps a bit dry but is I think thorough and well balanced. 

 

JW - EV Meltdown?

 

I have not seen any evidence of where underground cabling cannot cope with more than three cars being fast charged on a street. A fast charger pulls less power than a domestic electric shower, so equally I've not seen any instances of people being banned from buying or using showers for this reason. The charger cannot pull any more power that what the house main fuse allows, so if the DNO has decreed that 100 houses in a street can pull a maximum 60A then their cabling will be rated for that load.

 

In addition it must be remembered that EV drivers generally do (and will) charge overnight because they are financially incentivised to do so with off peak rates. It is also the case that in the last couple of years new home chargers have additional protection in the form of randomised start times, and the ability to throttle the charge if the domestic load is approaching the home main fuse capacity.

 

The charging infrastructure has been developing at some considerable pace, yes there can be some queuing at busy times at particular chargers. The most famously reported where those at Tebay on the M6. However as is often the case the media never went back a few months later to report that Tesla had effectively more than doubled the capacity and throughput of the chargers there. C'est la vie...

 

Dave takes it on - Tebay Update

 

Balancing the charging infrastructure growth with that of EV uptake is always going to be tricky and I fear this government u-turn will slow that growth. Ironically the largest charging facility in the UK has just opened this past week.

 

NEC Hub

 

>As stated at the start, they are vulnerable.  Any power cut, for whatever reason, leaves the car devoid of power.

 

Unless a driver has been particularly stupid and got home with 0% to find there is a power cut, then an EV is NOT devoid of power. In my own particular case I always ensure there is a minimum of 30% in the battery in case I have to make a dash to support an elderly relative. It is interesting to note that one of the big selling points to buyers in the US of the Ford F150 Lightning truck is the fact that it can happily run a home for a considerable time as their domestic electricity grids are not as robust.

 

HTH

Idd 

[Dickw]

8 minutes ago, IDD15 said:

......................... The charger cannot pull any more power that what the house main fuse allows, so if the DNO has decreed that 100 houses in a street can pull a maximum 60A then their cabling will be rated for that load.
..............................

Not really. There was a large diversity factor built into the calculations i.e. the assumption that only a few properties will be pulling anything like that load at any one time.

Obviously as use changes over the years many of the cables could now be at risk and need replacing or network reinforcement.

 

Dick

[Zflyer]

Dick W: i was wondering when someone was going to mention the diversity factor.

One othe thing comes to mind as well 'out of phase issues'.

That is also calculated in the 'diversity factor'. 

It waz certainly calculated when installing machinery in factories, in particular those with their own or substations close bye.

 

[Chris Walby]

1 hour ago, Dickw said:

Not really. There was a large diversity factor built into the calculations i.e. the assumption that only a few properties will be pulling anything like that load at any one time.

Obviously as use changes over the years many of the cables could now be at risk and need replacing or network reinforcement.

 

Dick

Bearing in mind that most consumers are no longer with their District Network Operator (DNO), UKPN in my area its extremely unlikely they will upgrade any infrastructure whatsoever.

There are cheaper and easier methods available to them along with national grid like frequency modulation, paying industrial consumers to load lop and of course those with smart meters just remotely switching them off for a bit.

 

There are a few EV's about that can charge/discharge so effectively feed back into the network on command to a set level. So if you only ever really need 25% EV capacity you could theoretically sell 75% of your EV's capacity back into the network as many times as you want.

 

The elephant in the room which the DNO can't realistically control at a domestic level (industrial only if the consumer has an issue) is network power quality (harmonics). A quick check at home and over a third of the current drawn is not at 50hz but at 150Hz due to electronic equipment. Its even worse at industrial levels with 25% of our 6MW at the 5th harmonic + a good dose of 7th, 9th, 11th and above. These higher harmonics can be very destructive but the likelihood of your DNO serving you with an improvement notice is next to zero.  

 

Next time the power does off, have a quick drive around the local area and you'll find the DNO repairing High Voltage cable ends or terminations as that's where the harmonics find the weak points.

 

PS worth noting that the DNO standard practice for transformers is to run them over their rated capacity if the network is pushed for capacity...

 

PPS Looking at the UK grid and generation right now

31% is gas powered

17% Nuclear

25% Wind (that's just because its windy tonight!)

12% France and Norway

Rest is all the others

 

So a question to the EV owners who charge their cars overnight...is it really green electricity?

[Frank Skilbeck]

20 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

 

 

So a question to the EV owners who charge their cars overnight...is it really green electricity?

Greener, gas powered generation is about the most thermally efficient, low CO2, fossil fuel power. Currently the UK emissions are running at 149 g/kwhr with a 12 month average of 162 g/kwhr, and a typical electric car can do 4+ miles per kw/hr, so around 40g per mile (25 g/km).

[IDD15]

2 hours ago, Dickw said:

Not really. There was a large diversity factor built into the calculations i.e. the assumption that only a few properties will be pulling anything like that load at any one time.

Obviously as use changes over the years many of the cables could now be at risk and need replacing or network reinforcement.

 

Dick

TBH I knew when I typed that I was perhaps oversimplifying things! However, given most EV drivers will be charging at periods of low demand, on different days and have different use cases then the “diversity factor” is probably still applicable/valid. Also we now have effectively smarter chargers as well to help things out I don’t think we will see many cases of street cables acting like a fuse.

 

I have read of the odd instance on EV forums where people have had a few issues installing an EV charger due to their home supply, but fortunately it does seem rare.

 

cheers

idd

 

 

 

[Chris Walby]

51 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

Greener, gas powered generation is about the most thermally efficient, low CO2, fossil fuel power. Currently the UK emissions are running at 149 g/kwhr with a 12 month average of 162 g/kwhr, and a typical electric car can do 4+ miles per kw/hr, so around 40g per mile (25 g/km).

"most thermally efficient" compared with the rest of the generating plant in the UK, but as we don't have widespread CHP are we not still wasting +65% of the energy in fossil fuel as rejected heat for electrical generation? I am not saying ICE is any more efficient, but it is point of use energy usage rather than power stations running at part or even no output, but burning gas in readiness for the end of Eastenders?