First taste of the sky

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Maybe just too low for instructor to save and not tail heavy, take your knocks and keep going Toto.

[Zflyer]

Whatever the cauze just get back on the sticks.

[leccyflyer]

Sorry to hear of your setbacks Toto, but you seem to be well on the way to getting back in the air quickly and certainly picking up the lesson not to get too discouraged by the inevitable bump, especially when learning. Make the most of this weather, it's a bonus that we get quite often at this time of the year, typically after a poor summer. Best of luck today.

[Learner]

If you were a long way out ,could it have gone dead stick without you hearing .unusual for a trainer to get into a spin without an issue of some kind

[Don Fry]

Toto, reliable cause of mishaps is a black art acquired by experience. I can’t see why a new fuel tank has much effect on a trainer.
Any way, you have done a walk of shame. It was awful, walking over, brain going 10 to dozen, what’s it like, swear, swear. 
Part of the curve. Learn it, game of tears and blood.

 

But I would say, your dead stick ratio is high. Dead sticks are caused by something well suboptimal, in the tune, installation positions or quality control of components.

[GrumpyGnome]

You really shouldn't be having so many dead-sticks. That needs sorting - nothing worse than an unreliable engine.  Is there an 'engine whisperer' that can tune it properly?

[Denis Watkins]

7 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

You really shouldn't be having so many dead-sticks. That needs sorting - nothing worse than an unreliable engine.  Is there an 'engine whisperer' that can tune it properly?

 

Absolutely right comment here for you Toto from GG

must be over 90% of running problems due to tank delivery pressure

Get help

[Trevor]

With regard to the crash, I notice you said the elevator had become completely detached. Cause or effect?

 

Trevor

[Rich Griff]

We're the hinges *pegged" ?

[toto]

Hi all,

 

Hi Trevor, the elevator become detached as a result of the re of the fuselage splitting into two parts just where the elevator is held in place. Ie .... not the elevators fault as such.

 

Rich .... the hinges were glued  ut not pegged with cocktail sticks or the like.

 

Just back from the club ( early ) for two reasons ..... one, I have a chest infection possibly brought on  by a cold I caught and which seems to have floored me.

 

Second ( and probably more significantly ) we took the Arising Start back into the air for its first flight today. My mentor took it up for a test flight to see the repairs from yesterday had not affected its fitness for flight. It proceeded to take off and after a out a minute decided it was coming down. Luckily enough it was only a out 20 / 30 feet off the ground and came down pretty level. A bit of a torn u undercarriage ( where repaired yesterday ) but apart from that ok.

 

Second flight ...... ( after a few more checks including a range check which was fine ) up she went and she flew the it started to go mad. The plane was going into sporadic periods of no control. It was doing twists and rolls and stuttering about the place. We were  very lucky to be able to bring it back down but my  mentor did manage it. My mentor maintains that these intermittent faults seem to happen when we are over a certain distance away ( well within the range we usually fly ) but I am not convinced. Je suggesting that I use one of my Spekturm transmitters that has a physical antennae ( one of my 8 channel receivers ) as the AR 620 does not have an antennae.

 

 

We decided at that point to cut our losses for the day with the Arising Star, retire her for the day and get the club trainer back out. I had one successful flight with the club trainer  but ended up calling it a day after that as I was physically exhausted after trudging over field when retrieving the Arising Star from earlier.

 

Time for a shower, a coffee and possibly 40 winks.

 

As for the flying, I'm in two minds whether to call it a day for a while, take a step back and revisit it later with some kind of clear plan. 

 

 

Time for a power nap.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

@toto agree re making a plan, but no need to stop flying and potentially taking any more backward steps whilst you're doing that

 

Trying a different rx sounds sensible - the previous crash may have caused some physical damage .....

[leccyflyer]

18 minutes ago, toto said:

Hi all,

 

Hi Trevor, the elevator become detached as a result of the re of the fuselage splitting into two parts just where the elevator is held in place. Ie .... not the elevators fault as such.

 

Rich .... the hinges were glued  ut not pegged with cocktail sticks or the like.

 

Just back from the club ( early ) for two reasons ..... one, I have a chest infection possibly brought on  by a cold I caught and which seems to have floored me.

 

Second ( and probably more significantly ) we took the Arising Start back into the air for its first flight today. My mentor took it up for a test flight to see the repairs from yesterday had not affected its fitness for flight. It proceeded to take off and after a out a minute decided it was coming down. Luckily enough it was only a out 20 / 30 feet off the ground and came down pretty level. A bit of a torn u undercarriage ( where repaired yesterday ) but apart from that ok.

 

Second flight ...... ( after a few more checks including a range check which was fine ) up she went and she flew the it started to go mad. The plane was going into sporadic periods of no control. It was doing twists and rolls and stuttering about the place. We were  very lucky to be able to bring it back down but my  mentor did manage it. My mentor maintains that these intermittent faults seem to happen when we are over a certain distance away ( well within the range we usually fly ) but I am not convinced. Je suggesting that I use one of my Spekturm transmitters that has a physical antennae ( one of my 8 channel receivers ) as the AR 620 does not have an antennae.

 

 

We decided at that point to cut our losses for the day with the Arising Star, retire her for the day and get the club trainer back out. I had one successful flight with the club trainer  but ended up calling it a day after that as I was physically exhausted after trudging over field when retrieving the Arising Star from earlier.

 

Time for a shower, a coffee and possibly 40 winks.

 

As for the flying, I'm in two minds whether to call it a day for a while, take a step back and revisit it later with some kind of clear plan. 

 

 

Time for a power nap.

 

Toto

Aye have a wee nap, get yourself better and don't worry about it for a couple of days until you are feeling well.

 

By all means make a plan, but the vital thing at the moment is getting that stick time in - it always has been - and I think that was behind a lot of the advice that you received early in this thread, cautioning against getting distracted with too many models too early on in your model flying journey.

 

Taking a step back at this stage and overthinking it, might easily waste the good progress that you have made on the days when you have managed to get in the air. You mentioned earlier on that one of your trainers was much happier with teaching you on your electric model and, for me, you would be best forgetting about the frustrations of getting a balky two stroke running successfully and concentrating on a model where you are guaranteed it getting off the ground and staying there until you decide it is time to land. There is no need to tolerate repeated deadsticks at this time of the hobby when more reliable alternatives are readily available.

[Don Fry]

Toto, you learn, hard knocks. If it was easy, why do many fail? There is no way anyone gets it right, first off, first time. Airframes are biros, use abuse, break, repeat until it’s use, abuse, then use wear out. 
You just have to learn to get a bit better, wary. 
Leccyflier is alluding, I think, to electric setups. I will accept, a glow motor needs installing, setting up and maintaining. Yours is not right. And it’s not rocket science to sort a trainer. But yours ain’t getting sorted, so perhaps no-one has yet visited it with the necessary skill set. 
So perhaps, for now, install a ready designed leccy setup, or use another biro, eating it watts raw.

[toto]

Hi chaps,

 

As always, many thanks for the comments.

 

I think I'll need to have a chat with my mentor / instructor and see if he would be happy enough to continue if I were to suggest using a leccie  model ( my domino or my Beaver once the spares are available to repair it ).

 

He has recom,issioned the club trainer which is a glow  model and is a big floaty  well mannered trainer which I get on with, however even that turned out to be a bit unreliable when I used it originally.

 

Maybe I should give it next weekend with the Club trainer and if this starts giving more unreliable sessions, then suggest either the Domino or the Beaver.

 

One thing is for sure, I can't keep going the way it is because it's totally de moralising. Say 85% of historic issues are not flying issues, it's all down to weather ( which can't be helped ) or set up issues .... either  models or transmitters etc. 

 

To me .... every new commissioning of a new  model.... either Glow or electric should surely have some kind of pre-determined initial commissioning ... testing .... set up routine to establish its basic ability to fly.  

 

Unfortunately, nobody at my club seems to use Spektrum so transmitter / receiver set ups may take a bit more time to get right  but you would think many of the basic set up functions should be similar and shouldn't be a show stopper.  

 

Some may say ... well if you think it's that easy .... go on ...... read the instructions and fill yer boots..... well ok ..... to a point ... but ... I'd think that in the hands of a seasoned flyer ..... it should be even easier as they already understand the terminology and general settings that cross the borders of  most manufacturers products. .... maybe I'm wrong.

 

The quest continues

 

Toto

[Don Fry]

I had a trainee. He had some sort of Futaba clone. I used Futaba 20 years ago. Hard work. He had attitude issues, as in walk,  don’t run. I didn’t realise he had eyesight problems. Didn’t end well. 
 

trainer, biro to train on. Break biro, think about how the biro got broken, sort another biro, one more step to worn out biro.
Just to establish reality, your walk of shame, and as you get more wary about installation,  your thoughts go, I reckon it took 300 hours to make, and I, note I, just broke that. 

That is a future joy. 

[Ron Gray]

The club trainer has the advantage, or should have, of being setup with radio gear that the instructor knows so that aspect of frustration is removed. It should also be a well sorted model so trimming etc should also be sorted which removes another level of frustration. Go with that option to get your flying hours in then tun to your own models, at the moment the instructor is having to fight with radio gear he doesn't understand and a model that, with all due respect, has been put together by someone with very little building knowledge. If the club trainer proves to be unreliable (it really shouldn't be!) then personally I would use one of my own models for training and buddy you off my Tx (not Spektum btw!). Another option, if one of your models were to be used and Spectrum is still an issue, would be for the trainer to use one of his own RXs in it and buddy you off his Tx. If that's not acceptable (to the instructor) then he should imo take the time to read up on the Spektrum system!

[MattyB]

9 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

The club trainer has the advantage, or should have, of being setup with radio gear that the instructor knows so that aspect of frustration is removed. It should also be a well sorted model so trimming etc should also be sorted which removes another level of frustration. Go with that option to get your flying hours in then tun to your own models, at the moment the instructor is having to fight with radio gear he doesn't understand and a model that, with all due respect, has been put together by someone with very little building knowledge. If the club trainer proves to be unreliable (it really shouldn't be!) then personally I would use one of my own models for training and buddy you off my Tx (not Spektum btw!). Another option, if one of your models were to be used and Spectrum is still an issue, would be for the trainer to use one of his own RXs in it and buddy you off his Tx. If that's not acceptable (to the instructor) then he should imo take the time to read up on the Spektrum system!

Agreed, sensible stuff. Whilst I am no big Spektrum fan, until the last flight on Sunday I’m not aware of you experiencing any RC issues (other than the fact you struggled to get wired buddying working, now solved via wireless), is that correct toto? If that is the case it would appear unlikely there is suddenly a problem with this TX and RX, but even so, you will need to do some more scientific checks to see what was going on in that flight. Luckily that RX has telemetry that can help - from the Prk website:

 

Dig through the RX and TX instructions and see what you can find for the flight logs over the weekend - I suspect there will be some good info there that can help us diagnose the issue. 

[toto]

Hi Matty,

 

You are correct, we have the Spektrum system working wirelessly and generally, this works fine. I am a little reluctant myself to go blaming the receiver and I will look into the above data logging retrieval in order to try and rule certain things in or out.

 

It may take me a couple of days as I am by my own admission a little slow on tech. However, I will get my head around it. There will no doubt be some handy tutorials on Utube that will give me some initial guidance.

 

It's funny this subject should arise as when I try to explain my theory for going with Spektrum and its telemetry systems, all the old school just dismiss it. .... you know ..... we never needed that back in the day. It's just dismissed as self serving gadgets from the manufacturers. ..... it's at times like this that they can be worth their weight in gold when potentially having the ability to diagnose issues.

 

Of course that's only one half of the equation as you need to have the ability to decipher what all the tech is telling you .... but you have to start somewhere.

 

Thanks for the above.

 

Toto

[MattyB]

38 minutes ago, toto said:

...It's funny this subject should arise as when I try to explain my theory for going with Spektrum and its telemetry systems, all the old school just dismiss it. .... you know ..... we never needed that back in the day. It's just dismissed as self serving gadgets from the manufacturers. ..... it's at times like this that they can be worth their weight in gold when potentially having the ability to diagnose issues.

 

Of course that's only one half of the equation as you need to have the ability to decipher what all the tech is telling you .... but you have to start somewhere.

 

Yeah, telemetry is often dismissed by people who've never had it and can't be bothered to understand it. Many will never change that view, but some can be convinced by effective troubleshooting of an issue like this which would be impossible without telemetry. I am certain telemetry has saved me from at least three crashes over the last 10-12 years, twice on a new install that I've not got quite right initially in terms of aerial orientation, once with a faulty RX. In all three occasions I was informed of signal issues well before I lost control, so could curtail the flight avoiding loss of the model. I estimate that has saved me ~£1700 (two of these were big, expensive composite gliders), so any additional cost of telemetry becomes pretty much insignificant at that point.

 

PS - I know very little about IC, but I am confident that a glow model that consistently dead-sticks will not fix itself! For that reason you need to follow the advice in this thread and get an engine-whisperer on the case before you fly that model again. It doesn't sound like that is your mentor given he has consistently gone ahead and flown it with the issue unresolved, so I would politely seek out the most experienced IC operator at your club and see if he can diagnose and help you fix the cause before committing it to the air.

 

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, toto said:

You are correct, we have the Spektrum system working wirelessly and generally, this works fine. I am a little reluctant myself to go blaming the receiver and I will look into the above data logging retrieval in order to try and rule certain things in or out.

 

It may take me a couple of days as I am by my own admission a little slow on tech. However, I will get my head around it. There will no doubt be some handy tutorials on Utube that will give me some initial guidance.

 

Yep, looks like this is well covered on the 'tube...

 

 

 

 

[toto]

Hi Matty,

 

Just had a whistle stop tour of the above videos. ..... very interesting. .... heavy going but well worth getting my head around and bringing into use.

 

As an example, my instructor reckoned that when the Arising Star went into " do what you want " mode, it was at a certain distance out into the flying zone. ( I personally have my own thoughts on that ) the flight log could actually help identify this. ....OK .... with a bit of practice of use and understanding. If I understanding correct ..... this total loss of control would show up as a " hold " on the log analysis data. 

 

I could also do a basic check to see if my AR620 receiver is in fact operational or not before committing more expensive 8 channel telemetry receivers ( in stock ) into a trainer which is taking abuse.

 

I've only just touched briefly on some of the principles of use for these as shown in the video so need to do some more in order to get my head fully around it and of course get my instructors buy in. 

 

I'll go and watch the above.... and any more I find ..... and take it from there.

 

Again, thanks for posting these up and setting my homework for the next while anyway. 

 

Toto 

[Ron Gray]

In my experience analysing flight ‘failures’ should follow the following sequence of checks:

 

1. Pilot error, the most common of all faults but often blamed on radio gear. Be honest.

2. Airframe failure, sometimes difficult to prove if everything is in a bin bag.

3. Radio failure due to faulty switches, quite common as there are some very dodgy switches out there. Test and re test.

4. Radio failure due to poor installation. I’ve seen an awful lot of awful installations, I’m no super builder but I wouldn’t fly some of what I’ve seen.

4. Radio failure, very rare and almost impossible to prove (go back to 1) even with telemetry. Spektrum gets blamed a lot for this usually by non Spektrum users and is, therefore an easy excuse. 
 

[leccyflyer]

Good list Ron - Afraid I'd have to elaborate to add control failure due to control system failure, of which I've seen and witnessed multiple examples in three slightly different presentations of

 

Clevis failure - using the wrong clevis on a threaded rod, or failure of the clevis pin, or simply the clevis popping off in flight. Could be attributed to poor installation.

Stripped servo gears, perhaps caused by the common occurence of catching a control surface on a car door or boot lid - enough movement to pass a control surface check on the ground, but in the air, if the servo moves beyond that range of travel and gets into that critical zone with no teeth, you're in trouble, there's nowhere tp go.

Duff servo - can count at least five crashes all atttributable toservos having gone bad and failed in flight - typically going hard over and staying there. Have known about this for a while and mitigated against it by replacing the servos on new models, but only on the critical flight controls. After having heard of a crash caused by a rudder going hard over, when not actually being used, that was the final straw and I set about grounding my Durafly models until all of their servos had been replaced.

[David Davis 2]

When I heard the description of your model crashing a long way from where you were standing Toto, my first reaction was pilot error caused by inexperience. That the instructor was unable to regain control I put down to him trying to regain control when it was too late and the model was too far away and he lost orientation. I have lost two Boomerangs by allowing my trainees too much time to correct their mistakes and when I finally took back control, I had lost orientation and the model crashed.

 

I am prepared to admit that it might have been radio failure but radios are generally very reliable today, switches however, as Ron has said are sometimes the cause of accidents. I no longer fit cheap switches to my models.

 

Perhaps an examination of the telemetry will reveal a fault but if it's any consolation, while flying in La Coupe Des Barons in June we all had to "park" our models at a safe altitude while a marshall recovered a crashed model from the runway. I was downwind at a high altitude when my model went out of control. I managed to repair the model and could find no fault with the radio but was too disheartened to continue in the competition. The crash was almost certainly caused by pilot error on my part.

 

I have no wish to curb your enthusiasm Toto but I feel that you should stick with a tried and trusted model and an experienced instructor rather than chopping and changing. if your instructor is not very knowledgeable about i/c engines then please find someone who is. If you've run-in your engine properly and have the correct fuel and glow plug and if the tank installation is correct, you shouldn't be getting all of these dead sticks.

 

P.S. In my experience it is difficult to get a brand new two stroke to idle very slowly until it has a couple of hours in the air.

Edited September 11, 2023 by David Davis 2

[toto]

Some good points Ron.

 

I think I can safely rule out air frame failure as the airframe has always been checked and sent up in good condition. When I check it after a bad landing, the damage incurred has been obviously caused by its impact. It not been damage or failure due to it simply not having been built correctly at the factory or the final assembly process. .... we are talking damage showing the airframe being torn apart.

 

However, due to the number of fairly significant structural repairs that it has now undergone .....I am getting more reluctant to passing it as good for reuse. I am going on the advice of others. Maybe I am too quick to right things off. Probably my biggest concern with this is ..... in trying to squeeze as much value / life out of the airframe, I end up putting more valuable accessories at risk ..... engine, receivers and decent servo's etc just by trying to prolong the service ability of a patched up airframe. I will go on the basis that the advice I am given to repair is correct for now.

 

Faulty switches. ... as you say .... a difficult one. We usually test these switches ..... transfer of control .... isolation switch and more lately the switch that selects which rates are being used before most flights although we may not be quite as strict on this.

 

Radio failure due to poor installation. As a newbie, I am very guilty of ....monkey see .... monkey do. In other words if the manual shows the receiver installed in a certain location ..... I tend to take it as read. However, in watching the videos posted above, it has made me question my receiver position which I will revisit. ....one further point on this though. With the abundance of experienced people having viewed my set up , if there was anything clearly wrong or inadvisable with the way I have positioned things, they are remaining very quiet about it. I'm assuming silence is compliance.

 

Pilot error...... most of the dead sticks and their subsequent landings have been at the hands of my instructor. We have not even had the opportunity to hand over control. He is a very competent pilot ( I understand that is not what is being questioned here ). On a few occasions when I have been in control, he has recovered me from some pretty miraculous positions. I'm happy he is competent. The latest occasion at the weekend he admitted he was to late in intervening. I doubt it would have mattered as it was such a violent change in orientation. I don't think it was anything I done either which leads me to think it is genuinely a communications issue between the TX and RX .... a failure of some sort.

 

This is where the ability to investigate any telemetry analysis maybe very useful so pilot error can maybe be either ruled out or at least less heavily relied upon as a reason. Maybe not.

 

Your last point on Spektrum ..... I have bought into Spektrum as a brand with its telemetry at the heart of this decision. Granted, I don't totally understand it yet but I'll hopefully get there. Right mow, it's all about the basics. .... flying ....

 

As far as telemetry goes, I am not aware of anyone at my club that uses it. I don't ask as anytime I have in the past , the conversation gets shut down ..... if it's not balsa and glue ...... not standard servos's ........ if it's not  " the way it's always been done .......then it doesn't hold water. Maybe I'm in the wrong club for this. However, I 'll stay put at least until I've learned to fly and then walk my own path ....... probably alone ....... on telemetry.... or risk the wrath of Wra.

 

For now I'll concentrate on trying to get to the bottom of it. .... it's a long journey.

 

Toto