Model Flyer Killed in Spain

[EvilC57]

Sounds like a lack of communication on the field.
 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1776686/man-dies-collision-model-airplane-spain

Edited June 13, 2023 by EvilC57

[Peter Jenkins]

Oh dear.  Very sad but as the OP says sounds like a lack of communication on the field.  Let us hope that this tragedy doesn't become used to curtail our sport or to add further rules.  If we don't follow existing rules that are designed to stop this sort of accident happening implementing new ones will have little effect either.

[Jon H]

I heard about this at the laser fly in and was considering posting about it as i was surprised it wasnt reported here. 

 

As already stated, a breakdown in communication and general field procedures seems to be the root cause. 

[paul devereux]

The model, according to the Express article was: a turbine-powered aircraft that weighs about eight kilograms and was flying at a speed of about 60 kilometres per hour at the time of the impact.

It's incidents like this that give all RC planes a bad name with the public. And it is the kind of thing that will get all model flying banned. There will obviously be an inquest- I hope there is also a criminal investigation and prosecution. I have no sympathy with people being reckless with a turbine-powered plane or LSMs- it is the kind of thing that may affect us all, whether we fly them or not.

 

 

[Cuban8]

A safety notice has been issued to club officials by the BMFA. Hopefully, all members will get reminders of best practice and their own club rules - not a bad idea from time to time anyway.

[Kim Taylor]

13 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

I hope there is also a criminal investigation and prosecution. I have no sympathy with people being reckless with a turbine-powered plane or LSMs- it is the kind of thing that may affect us all, whether we fly them or not.

 

 

Sorry Paul, bang out of order, you have no knowledge of the circumstances, other than the (sketchy) report.

reported to mods

Kim

p.s. if this is the way this forum is going - I'm oot

[Ron Gray]

28 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:

if this is the way this forum is going - I'm oot

The forum is not going that way, only occasional posts which are very much in their minority.

[Jon H]

I know we do not want this turning into a speculation thread but i just want to say this. 

 

I have to confess i think you are jumping the gun Paul. Yes there should be an investigation, without doubt, but to immediately jump on the jet pilot i think is unjust. 

 

We dont know what happened exactly, but the report to date so far seems to suggest the victim landed but needed to retrieve his model from the runway. The other pilot was landing not knowing he was there and struck him. The two were apparently very old friends and had flown together for many years. Clearly the two did not communicate their intentions.

 

So if we assume all of that to be correct, we can see both pilots are at fault in some ways, but we can also see it was an accident. We have no evidence to suggest the jet pilot was flying in a dangerous or reckless manor, and we could argue the victim was reckless to just throw himself on an active runway. How the law would view the whole incident is not for us to decide. 

 

All we can do is tighten up our own procedures and try to prevent the sort of communication breakdown that, in all honesty, was the most likely cause of this incident. 

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

1 hour ago, paul devereux said:

The model, according to the Express article was: a turbine-powered aircraft that weighs about eight kilograms and was flying at a speed of about 60 kilometres per hour at the time of the impact.

It's incidents like this that give all RC planes a bad name with the public. And it is the kind of thing that will get all model flying banned. There will obviously be an inquest- I hope there is also a criminal investigation and prosecution. I have no sympathy with people being reckless with a turbine-powered plane or LSMs- it is the kind of thing that may affect us all, whether we fly them or not.

 

 

Oh please! It appears to have been an accident caused by poor communication, there is no indication that any reckless flying was taking place. these incidents are incredibly rare and model flying, especially in the UK has an excellent safety record. We should look to see if anything can be learnt from the incident, the BMFA are already reviewing guidance, which is pretty good anyway, to see if improvements can be made to it. Clubs should also look to see what lessons can be learned and also remind members about the importance of good communication especially when entering the live flying area. A notice has already been sent to all clubs about it.

 

Quote

Safety Notice

You may be aware of a recent tragic accident that occurred in Spain. A model flyer was killed instantly when he was hit by a model aircraft while retrieving his own model after landing. From the relatively sparse information currently available it appears this was simply a case of poor communication at the flight line and perhaps something that could easily have been avoided.

Could I please ask you to reinforce to your members the importance of effective communications at the flight line, announcing intentions and having them acknowledged by others on the flight line is vital to maintaining our excellent safety record. It is also good practice to review your club risk assessment annually, so if you haven’t reviewed your clubs risk assessment recently could I ask you to please do so. You can find guidance at https://clubsupport.bmfa.uk/risk

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Andy Symons - BMFA

[paul devereux]

59 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

The forum is not going that way, only occasional posts which are very much in their minority.

 

1 hour ago, Kim Taylor said:

Sorry Paul, bang out of order, you have no knowledge of the circumstances, other than the (sketchy) report.

reported to mods

Kim

p.s. if this is the way this forum is going - I'm oot

I'm sorry to cause offence, it was not my intention to upset anyone. My reaction was just to the sentiment that it was an accident- it was of course, but it is also the sort of thing that will get aeromodelling banned- the public don't make distinctions between different types of model planes and neither do legislators.  @Kim Taylor Don't leave, the mods will take appropriate action, which may be me leaving!

Once again, I apologize for any offence, it was most certainly not my intention.

Edited June 14, 2023 by paul devereux

[Peter Jenkins]

Paul

 

From your post, it would seem that you have not followed any of the debate around the introduction of the Drone Laws both in the EU and, more importantly, in the UK.  This type of incident should not have happened had normal procedures been followed.  I see little reason for the powers that be to do more than the BMFA has already done to draw to pilots' attentions the importance of following procedure.  As a matter of course, how often do you check the landing area and what is going on in it before you call landing and monitor it thereafter?  Something this incident has shown as being a very necessary skill to build into your flying.  Please don't say the BMFA tells you never to take your eyes off the aircraft while flying it.  The requirement is there for demonstrating your fitness to fly solo and for the B Cert.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

27 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

 

I'm sorry to cause offence, it was not my intention to upset anyone. My reaction was just to the sentiment that it was an accident- it was of course, but it is also the sort of thing that will get aeromodelling banned- the public don't make distinctions between different types of model planes and neither do legislators.  @Kim Taylor Don't leave, the mods will take appropriate action, which may be me leaving!

Once again, I apologize for any offence, it was most certainly not my intention.

 

No, you'll not be asked to leave Paul.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Seems you folks don't need mods intervention, you've the thread sorted yourselves.

Terrible event for all involved, mind how you go all.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

35 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

 

 but it is also the sort of thing that will get aeromodelling banned-

No it really isn't.  It's nothing more than a very rare and very tragic accident, the type of aircraft is completely irrelevant. As long as the the opportunity is taken to learn from it that is all that can be asked.

[Cuban8]

We're all concerned that aeromodelling should never be banned. It's a lawful activity and unless we find ourselves in a situation as we did in 1939-45 where I believe powered model flying was banned - not unreasonably -  (except rubber power or gliders, if I recall stories from some of our older club members correctly) then we shouldn't get too worked up about being legislated out of existence at a stroke, when for all the wrong reasons, we come under the gaze of a news hungry and sensationalist media. Big kids with their 'deadly 100mph toys' and all the rest of it.

TBH, the hobby is under far greater threat in terms of loss of existing flying  sites, demographic changes and alleged environmental  concerns from land owners. We just have to keep our house in order and try as much as is humanly possible to eliminate very rare, but needless accidents.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Cuban8

[SIMON CRAGG]

Whatever happened, my thoughts are for all concerned.

Must have been a terrible day to say the least.

RIP fellow aero modeller.

[paul devereux]

@MattyB @Flying Squirrel@Andy Symons - BMFA @Ron Gray and others: on re-reading, I can see why my post was so controversial.  I intended to say "if there was recklessness involved" it should be followed up with legal proceedings,etc. Of course, there may not have been- it could have been a mechanical failure that was unforeseen, for example.

I was immediately thinking in terms of the Shoreham disaster- I know many think Andy Hill escaped justice.

I was just trying to provide some balance to our gut reaction to feel sorry for everyone involved, when we should also be looking at wider causes and consequences- which I referred to.

Of course it is tragic, no one would deny that.

[Guvnor]

On 14/06/2023 at 11:15, paul devereux said:

The model, according to the Express article was: a turbine-powered aircraft that weighs about eight kilograms and was flying at a speed of about 60 kilometres per hour at the time of the impact.

It's incidents like this that give all RC planes a bad name with the public. And it is the kind of thing that will get all model flying banned. There will obviously be an inquest- I hope there is also a criminal investigation and prosecution. I have no sympathy with people being reckless with a turbine-powered plane or LSMs- it is the kind of thing that may affect us all, whether we fly them or not.

So it would have been OK if it had been a Wot4...?

Edited June 25, 2023 by Guvnor

[paul devereux]

8 minutes ago, Guvnor said:

So it would have been OK if it had been a Wot4...?

Maybe okay if it was a park flyer: HBZ Champ RTF (elitemodelsonline.co.uk)

That's why they are park flyers.

Edit: Do you think there is a difference between a 100gm park flyer and a 10kg plus turbine model, or do you class them both as RC models?

Edited June 25, 2023 by paul devereux

[Peter Jenkins]

They are the same Paul.  They fly in the air.  A 100 gm park flyer being flown into the face of a child could result in serious injury - e.g. being hit in the eye or having a prop doing 6-7 thousand revs chomping into your face.  From your comment, you obviously don't think that a 100 gm park flyer can be dangerous.  Just by virtue of being flown in a public place by a pilot who might have little or no training makes them very dangerous.  Even a pilot who appears to be competent can be caught out by trying something new that goes wrong and they lose control of the aircraft resulting in a potentially dangerous situation.  Many in such situations would not think about reducing the throttle witness the number of models I've seen go in at full, or near full, chat!

[Rich Griff]

Yes, a very sad fatality.

 

Waiting for inquest and verdict.

 

A "drone" or any other model, free flight gliding, glider, powered model has the potential to mame or kill.

 

Even the thought of a spinning prop landing in a pram sends shivers down my spine...

 

See the picture in June's rcme of the glider and the "Rodney award" winner...

 

Did that one make it to the "accident book"...

 

We ALL need to be extremely carefull.

 

Safe flying is no accident, remember that ?

[Learner]

2 hours ago, paul devereux said:

Maybe okay if it was a park flyer: HBZ Champ RTF (elitemodelsonline.co.uk)

That's why they are park flyers.

Edit: Do you think there is a difference between a 100gm park flyer and a 10kg plus turbine model, or do you class them both as RC models?

Many many years ago I was flying a not particularly large 2 line stunt kite at a holiday camp that dived to the ground out of control and hit a man with enough force to knock him down. Fortunately apart from a bruised shoulder and a grazed face he was ok and my dad bought him a couple of pints in the bar to keep him happy.

Yes a 100gm plane should be flown safely just the same as a 10kg turbine as in the world we live I doubt there would be any distinction in the case of injury.

Your plane is a model and its controlled by rc does that answer your question?

 

[John Lee]

In the full size world the Piper J-3 Cub is often proclaimed to be the safest aircraft; as it can just barely kill you.

 

Same thing applies to models.

[Geoff S]

4 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

They are the same Paul.  They fly in the air.  A 100 gm park flyer being flown into the face of a child could result in serious injury - e.g. being hit in the eye or having a prop doing 6-7 thousand revs chomping into your face.  From your comment, you obviously don't think that a 100 gm park flyer can be dangerous.  Just by virtue of being flown in a public place by a pilot who might have little or no training makes them very dangerous.  Even a pilot who appears to be competent can be caught out by trying something new that goes wrong and they lose control of the aircraft resulting in a potentially dangerous situation.  Many in such situations would not think about reducing the throttle witness the number of models I've seen go in at full, or near full, chat!

 

That's why I'd always wear glasses, even if not needed normally, when flying indoors.  The models are very light and would be harmless if hitting you where clothing protects but a rotating prop has the potential to do a lot of damage to an eye.  I got hit on the back of my head by a free-flight model at the notorious (and very enjoyable) so-called 'chuck and duck' evenings at the Nats a few years back.  I was wearing a cap and barely felt it 🙂

 

I very occasionally fly from a field path but 300 metres from home but I fly well over the field where it's empty of even the few walkers whilst I'm there.

[paul devereux]

3 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

They are the same Paul.  They fly in the air.  A 100 gm park flyer being flown into the face of a child could result in serious injury - e.g. being hit in the eye or having a prop doing 6-7 thousand revs chomping into your face.  From your comment, you obviously don't think that a 100 gm park flyer can be dangerous.  Just by virtue of being flown in a public place by a pilot who might have little or no training makes them very dangerous.  Even a pilot who appears to be competent can be caught out by trying something new that goes wrong and they lose control of the aircraft resulting in a potentially dangerous situation.  Many in such situations would not think about reducing the throttle witness the number of models I've seen go in at full, or near full, chat!

I don't think we should disregard safety, not at all, in fact I have already posted to the contrary. I think I am being (probably) misconstrued so I will ignore this thread from now on.

Except to say- all extreme sports have risks- horse riding, gliding, for example, both of which I have taken part in. But aeromodelling is the only sport whose adherents seem determined to finish it off themselves by stressing the risks. Dogs kill more people in parks (about 5 -10 every year in the UK alone) yet we don't get dog walkers saying" Oh, dogs are so dangerous, we should only walk them on leads or in special parks where there are no other people." In fact there would be massive protests, and that is about a pastime that kills someone every month or so in the UK alone, whereas fatalities world-wide from model planes are extremely rare.  Imagine the backlash, too, from equestrians if the government tried to ban horses from public roads! There would be massive protests!

I think part of it is RC flyers like to think they are a special intrepid breed of dare devils, and would like to see toy RC planes (which is what the sub-250gm planes are) banned completely from sale to the public and only sold to "proper" RC pilots.